The Beheading

[LDF]

I think it depends on the severity of the crime.

 

If you raped, tortured and murdered little kids, were caught red handed doing so, there is no torture harsh enough for that person to endure as far as I'm concerned. I don't care how inhumane it is, either. I hope they have to go through 500 botched lethal injections before they die.

 

oh i don't know, i like the idea of a slow drip, lethal injection with a little acid mix, not enuf to kill, but enuf to hurt.

 

and while that is being applied, start breaking every digit on the hand and feet.

 

~~~ edit, and since we are talking about ISIS, how bout a little blood infusion with some pig's blood held down with pigs leather.

 

~~~ edit 2, and since he is strapped to the table, how bout getting some boars testicles and shove it up their arse and sew the arse cheek shut. like this they are really getting screwed, figuratively and literally. good bye to seeing alah.

Edited February 10, 2015 by LDF

[ChiSox_Sonix]

If we didn't buy NFL jerseys that would not stop spousal abuse.

 

If the group that became Isis wasn't able to finance their war by selling oil, they wouldn't have made more than a whimper in Syria.

 

If Saudi Arabia wasn't able to keep itself propped up by oil, they wouldn't be able to feed money to groups like Isis and have a trump card that prevents anyone from reforming them.

 

Have you ever bought a diamond or gold for yourself or someone else? If so, you support slavery.

 

Have you ever purchased or worn a shirt made outside of the US? If so, you support child labor.

 

Have you ever purchased anything from Switzerland? If so, you support their history of allowing terrorist organizations to finance themselves.

 

Did you watch the Super Bowl? If so, you support the event that brings in hundreds of human traffickers every year.

 

Did you watch the Olympics in Sochi? If so, you support Russia's anti-LGBT stance.

 

These all follow the same logic of buying gas equals support for beheadings.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Like I keep saying...as long as that's your attitude, we may as well just get used to videos of people being beheadded and burned alive because it won't change.

[LDF]

Like I keep saying...as long as that's your attitude, we may as well just get used to videos of people being beheadded and burned alive because it won't change.

 

in all seriousness, that region has been a hotbed of religious fanatics, dating all the way back to biblical times. if they haven't learn anything by now, does anyone expect them to learn anything in the future.

 

by learning, i am meaning tolerance.

[Texsox]

When SA kidnaps someone and beheads/lights them on fire and posts it on the internet, please let me know. Until then, they are not the same.

 

It's not the same. I agree. But what is the same is arguably the most important part. Someone is held against their will, judged as being a threat to that society, and killed.

 

[Texsox]

oh i don't know, i like the idea of a slow drip, lethal injection with a little acid mix, not enuf to kill, but enuf to hurt.

 

and while that is being applied, start breaking every digit on the hand and feet.

 

~~~ edit, and since we are talking about ISIS, how bout a little blood infusion with some pig's blood held down with pigs leather.

 

~~~ edit 2, and since he is strapped to the table, how bout getting some boars testicles and shove it up their arse and sew the arse cheek shut. like this they are really getting screwed, figuratively and literally. good bye to seeing alah.

 

Which again shows how close we are to having the same beliefs as ISIS and the rest.

[Y2HH]

Like I keep saying...as long as that's your attitude, we may as well just get used to videos of people being beheadded and burned alive because it won't change.

 

And your solution is to just stop using oil, because that's feasible.

 

No oil means no plastic, rubber or any other petroleum based products.

 

No driving.

 

No factories.

 

No deliveries.

 

No air travel.

 

No anything.

 

Yea, because that's a perfectly acceptable solution.

 

[Y2HH]

Which again shows how close we are to having the same beliefs as ISIS and the rest.

 

Yes, because my wanting to hurt child rapists is the same as ISIS sawing off the heads of foreign aid workers.

[LDF]

Which again shows how close we are to having the same beliefs as ISIS and the rest.

 

nah, not really, this is a brutal reaction, a form of revenge. btw. what i mention about the pig and such, that came from the muslims in the 1400-1700 which they will burn them after all the pig thing is done. these bands later became a name that is now known by a name as Assassins.

[Chisoxfn]

If we didn't buy NFL jerseys that would not stop spousal abuse.

 

If the group that became Isis wasn't able to finance their war by selling oil, they wouldn't have made more than a whimper in Syria.

 

If Saudi Arabia wasn't able to keep itself propped up by oil, they wouldn't be able to feed money to groups like Isis and have a trump card that prevents anyone from reforming them.

So are you proposing that we just go back into the stoneage and not use oil (as essentially that is what we would have to do, as we'd have a pretty limited oil resources globally). That said, US would be one of the lesser impacted countries as a whole but I'm fairly certain that would end up resulting in numerous other battles and wars.

[Jenksismyhero]

If we didn't buy NFL jerseys that would not stop spousal abuse.

 

If the group that became Isis wasn't able to finance their war by selling oil, they wouldn't have made more than a whimper in Syria.

 

If Saudi Arabia wasn't able to keep itself propped up by oil, they wouldn't be able to feed money to groups like Isis and have a trump card that prevents anyone from reforming them.

 

1) 21% of our oil is imported from SA. Not even a majority. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

 

2) Let's assume it was 100%, you really think that getting rid of foreign oil will stop the fight against Islamic terrorists? We've been buying less from them over the last 20 years and terrorism has skyrocketed.

 

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandl...IMUSSA1&f=M

 

(hopefully that link takes you to the graph)

[Jenksismyhero]

It's not the same. I agree. But what is the same is arguably the most important part. Someone is held against their will, judged as being a threat to that society, and killed.

 

No, see that's the difference. As I said before, at least SA has a "law" and SOME kind of justice system in place. Yes, it might be weak, it might be ludicrous, but it's SOMETHING. Presumably you could, in most cases, not do what is illegal and you'd be fine. Just because Balta can point to a few select cases doesn't' mean it's some epidemic where SA is systematically killing its people based on witchcraft allegations. ISIS is doing that. Grabbing random foreigners, kidnapping them, holding them for ransom and then killing them when they don't get their money (and let's not forget about the mass executions in public).

 

I seriously cannot believe that you guys think the two situations are even remotely similar.

[illinilaw08]

No, see that's the difference. As I said before, at least SA has a "law" and SOME kind of justice system in place. Yes, it might be weak, it might be ludicrous, but it's SOMETHING. Presumably you could, in most cases, not do what is illegal and you'd be fine. Just because Balta can point to a few select cases doesn't' mean it's some epidemic where SA is systematically killing its people based on witchcraft allegations. ISIS is doing that. Grabbing random foreigners, kidnapping them, holding them for ransom and then killing them when they don't get their money (and let's not forget about the mass executions in public).

 

I seriously cannot believe that you guys think the two situations are even remotely similar.

 

Several pages back, SS posted an article, citing a researcher from Human Rights Watch, discussing the number of people the Saudis behead for witchcraft in a given year.

 

My take is that the one with a terrible justice system that beheads people for "witchcraft" is not a moral high ground compared to someone like ISIS - who is not an actual state (are terrible laws that allow for execution on a whim better or worse compared to it being done lawlessly by a terrorist group).

 

In my opinion, it's a very fair criticism to point out that (1) Saudi Arabia is our ally because of oil; and (2) we should expect a better human right's record from our allies. The solution to that issue obviously isn't "stop using oil," but I do think it's fairly obvious that we tolerate behavior in Saudi Arabia that we wouldn't from our other allies.

 

EDIT to include SS's earlier link: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014...th-penalty.html

Edited February 10, 2015 by illinilaw08

[Jenksismyhero]

Several pages back, SS posted an article, citing a researcher from Human Rights Watch, discussing the number of people the Saudis behead for witchcraft in a given year.

 

My take is that the one with a terrible justice system that beheads people for "witchcraft" is not a moral high ground compared to someone like ISIS - who is not an actual state (are terrible laws that allow for execution on a whim better or worse compared to it being done lawlessly by a terrorist group).

 

In my opinion, it's a very fair criticism to point out that (1) Saudi Arabia is our ally because of oil; and (2) we should expect a better human right's record from our allies. The solution to that issue obviously isn't "stop using oil," but I do think it's fairly obvious that we tolerate behavior in Saudi Arabia that we wouldn't from our other allies.

 

EDIT to include SS's earlier link: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014...th-penalty.html

 

Where does it give the number of people beheaded for witchcraft? I see some numbers for people being held and for total claims in a given year, but not of those actually executed.

 

This article (linked in SS') http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16150381 gives about 3 examples, one of which was overturned by the states' high courts. I think you all are making that out to be WAY more serious than it actually is, unless i'm totally missing something.

 

Yes, we should expect more from our allies, including SA. Yes, a sorcery/witchcraft law is ludicrous. Yes, I guess in some sense we should expect more from a "civilized" society like SA. But Christ people, they lit a dude on fire! They lined up men from an entire village and shot them execution style! That's far more disturbing and wicked than what SA does based on radical religious beliefs.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Jenksismybitch

[Texsox]

No, see that's the difference. As I said before, at least SA has a "law" and SOME kind of justice system in place. Yes, it might be weak, it might be ludicrous, but it's SOMETHING. Presumably you could, in most cases, not do what is illegal and you'd be fine. Just because Balta can point to a few select cases doesn't' mean it's some epidemic where SA is systematically killing its people based on witchcraft allegations. ISIS is doing that. Grabbing random foreigners, kidnapping them, holding them for ransom and then killing them when they don't get their money (and let's not forget about the mass executions in public).

 

I seriously cannot believe that you guys think the two situations are even remotely similar.

 

Not even remotely similar?

 

They are all capital punishment. They are both holding someone against their will. People are being killed. Other people believe those people should not have been killed. Other people believe they should be killed. There is a justice system in place. It is fast and efficient. That all seems similar.

 

Balta is on his own for the oil stuff.

[Balta1701]

1) 21% of our oil is imported from SA. Not even a majority. http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

 

2) Let's assume it was 100%, you really think that getting rid of foreign oil will stop the fight against Islamic terrorists? We've been buying less from them over the last 20 years and terrorism has skyrocketed.

 

http://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandl...IMUSSA1&f=M

 

(hopefully that link takes you to the graph)

We've been buying less from them? Who do you think "we" is? We is the rest of the world. It doesn't matter that 21% of the oil consumed in the United States comes from Saudi Arabia when they're able to sell 100% of it.

 

This is the definition of the resource curse. Huge benefits flow to a tiny sliver of the population, they spread that money around to keep people from overthrowing them, that money winds up in the hands of angry groups who then use it against others.

 

As long as that's the case, and we look the other way when Saudi Arabia beheads a woman in a public square and and then video appears of it online because the world needs that oil, then we're not on some great humanitarian campaign against the evils of beheadding. We just like a different government better.

[Jenksismyhero]

Not even remotely similar?

 

They are all capital punishment. They are both holding someone against their will. People are being killed. Other people believe those people should not have been killed. Other people believe they should be killed. There is a justice system in place. It is fast and efficient. That all seems similar.

 

Balta is on his own for the oil stuff.

 

The definition of capital punishment includes the use of "legal process." I think you'd be severely stretching that definition to include "a decision made by a band of terrorists."

 

[illinilaw08]

Where does it give the number of people beheaded for witchcraft? I see some numbers for people being held and for total claims in a given year, but not of those actually executed.

 

This article (linked in SS') http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16150381 gives about 3 examples, one of which was overturned by the states' high courts. I think you all are making that out to be WAY more serious than it actually is, unless i'm totally missing something.

 

Yes, we should expect more from our allies, including SA. Yes, a sorcery/witchcraft law is ludicrous. Yes, I guess in some sense we should expect more from a "civilized" society like SA. But Christ people, they lit a dude on fire! They lined up men from an entire village and shot them execution style! That's far more disturbing and wicked than what SA does based on radical religious beliefs.

 

Do the beheadings have to be for witchcraft for us to condemn them? I'm certainly no expert on Saudi Arabia, but this Washington Post piece depicts some pretty bad human rights issues in Saudi Arabia.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldv...ple-last-month/

 

Fundamentally, I agree with you. ISIS is obviously a greater threat to regional stability than is Saudi Arabia and their lawlessness is reprehensible. I'm not hear to debate moral relativism between ISIS and SA, but there are clear issues with human rights in SA - something we shouldn't turn a blind eye toward.

 

To me, however, this comes down to one crucial point: we are taking an obvious stand against ISIS - which is important and good. But we should have some power to put some pressure on SA - our ally - to come around on human rights. For strategic reasons (oil, stability in the region, etc.), we don't put that pressure on them.

 

 

[illinilaw08]

The definition of capital punishment includes the use of "legal process." I think you'd be severely stretching that definition to include "a decision made by a band of terrorists."

 

If the "legal process" is corrupt and unjust, how is that better? These are extreme examples to be sure, but Nazi Germany and Stalin era USSR killed a hell of a lot of people by using the "legal process."

 

Again, I don't think we disagree that much - this is a fairly odd discussion - but the United States is doing what should reasonably be expected of it as to ISIS (basically everything short of boots on the ground). We can't say the same thing about the human rights issues in Saudi Arabia.

[Balta1701]

To me, however, this comes down to one crucial point: we are taking an obvious stand against ISIS - which is important and good. But we should have some power to put some pressure on SA - our ally - to come around on human rights. For strategic reasons (oil, stability in the region, etc.), we don't put that pressure on them.

Take it farther than that. Why is Isis so well funded? Illicit oil sales and overrunning a bank in Mosul where oil revenues were stored. They're able to use that money to pay their fighters more than any army in the middle east. Why are they well armed? Oil revenues and arms that we gave them through aid to Syria and Iraq.

 

We're bombing American made military equipment while they're selling oil and using that money to buy more.

[Jenksismyhero]

We've been buying less from them? Who do you think "we" is? We is the rest of the world. It doesn't matter that 21% of the oil consumed in the United States comes from Saudi Arabia when they're able to sell 100% of it.

 

This is the definition of the resource curse. Huge benefits flow to a tiny sliver of the population, they spread that money around to keep people from overthrowing them, that money winds up in the hands of angry groups who then use it against others.

 

As long as that's the case, and we look the other way when Saudi Arabia beheads a woman in a public square and and then video appears of it online because the world needs that oil, then we're not on some great humanitarian campaign against the evils of beheadding. We just like a different government better.

 

Lol, ah, so now it's the whole world's fault. It's not strictly US allies, it's everyone. I'm seriously starting to get confused about what point you're trying to make here. You're all over the place.

 

To recap: me buying gas for my car (whose source has a 20% chance of being from Saudi Arabia) is not only supporting beheading, but now the CAUSE of terrorist groups like ISIS (which is not a government, btw) beheading people in the desert. If only we would stop buying oil from SA, this would all go away (despite the fact that the less we have spent, the more terrorists there are).

 

Also, I don't know how strong your claim is that ISIS is funded by money from SA that was provided by countries like the US.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/06/world/meast/isis-funding/

 

They've taken over oils fields and other countries (Turkey and Syria) are buying oil from them, not the US. And it helps that they were able to rob some banks and pry on the people in their controlled region to keep making money.

 

 

 

[LDF]

Several pages back, SS posted an article, citing a researcher from Human Rights Watch, discussing the number of people the Saudis behead for witchcraft in a given year.

 

My take is that the one with a terrible justice system that beheads people for "witchcraft" is not a moral high ground compared to someone like ISIS - who is not an actual state (are terrible laws that allow for execution on a whim better or worse compared to it being done lawlessly by a terrorist group).

 

In my opinion, it's a very fair criticism to point out that (1) Saudi Arabia is our ally because of oil; and (2) we should expect a better human right's record from our allies. The solution to that issue obviously isn't "stop using oil," but I do think it's fairly obvious that we tolerate behavior in Saudi Arabia that we wouldn't from our other allies.

 

EDIT to include SS's earlier link: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014...th-penalty.html

 

just b/c they are our allies, do you expect all our allies to be like the US??? we, within the US have flawed ideas and believes, even still racial discontent, let alone public opinions on the gays issue. who are we to preach, when our system is far from prefect.

 

the arabs are our allies, b/c they need the US military might as a threat to keep peace in that region. in rtn, the US gets oil at a premium price........ money buys friends and allies.

 

ever since the time and before, Omar Khayyám 1000 when he wrote about the religious fanatics that there, there will always be fanatics doing what they believe their God wants them to do....... in that region, it wasn't only muslims, look at the story of masada > 66 ACE. side note, an area where a group of scrolls were found, the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Edited February 10, 2015 by LDF

[Jenksismyhero]

Do the beheadings have to be for witchcraft for us to condemn them? I'm certainly no expert on Saudi Arabia, but this Washington Post piece depicts some pretty bad human rights issues in Saudi Arabia.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldv...ple-last-month/

 

Fundamentally, I agree with you. ISIS is obviously a greater threat to regional stability than is Saudi Arabia and their lawlessness is reprehensible. I'm not hear to debate moral relativism between ISIS and SA, but there are clear issues with human rights in SA - something we shouldn't turn a blind eye toward.

 

To me, however, this comes down to one crucial point: we are taking an obvious stand against ISIS - which is important and good. But we should have some power to put some pressure on SA - our ally - to come around on human rights. For strategic reasons (oil, stability in the region, etc.), we don't put that pressure on them.

 

We can take a stand against ISIS because they are not a country, they are a lawless group of terrorists. We don't get anything from them. All they do is inflict damage and harm. They are not a world player. SA, China, etc. are. Yes, I agree we should be applying pressure, but they know it's all talk unless we are willing to stop buying from them and can convince the rest of the world to do the same.

 

[LDF]

If the "legal process" is corrupt and unjust, how is that better? These are extreme examples to be sure, but Nazi Germany and Stalin era USSR killed a hell of a lot of people by using the "legal process."

 

Again, I don't think we disagree that much - this is a fairly odd discussion - but the United States is doing what should reasonably be expected of it as to ISIS (basically everything short of boots on the ground). We can't say the same thing about the human rights issues in Saudi Arabia.

 

no they didn't they bastardize the law to make it look as they were within the law. all they did was outside the bounds of civility.

 

there appears to be several topics goings and i am getting confuse here.

[Jenksismyhero]

If the "legal process" is corrupt and unjust, how is that better? These are extreme examples to be sure, but Nazi Germany and Stalin era USSR killed a hell of a lot of people by using the "legal process."

 

Again, I don't think we disagree that much - this is a fairly odd discussion - but the United States is doing what should reasonably be expected of it as to ISIS (basically everything short of boots on the ground). We can't say the same thing about the human rights issues in Saudi Arabia.

 

It's not necessarily unjust just because we don't agree with their beliefs. It may be corrupt, I don't know. But as I said days ago, if the choice is cancer or cancer, i'm choosing the option that at least provides me with a chance to live. The one where your percentages of survival are much better.