Better Future Core: Sox or Cubs?

[Balta1701]

That's just a marginal improvement over two positions, and when you consider the allocation of resources (let's say $30 million minimum for Headley, if not $40-50), doesn't make a whole lotta sense.

 

If you're going to do that, you should really double down and spend another $20-30 million on an MVP caliber player in Sandoval (or even Hanley Ramirez) and try to get him straightened out offensively when paired with the strength and conditioning guys/Hermie.

You've just run into my problem with most of the moves that people have suggested in the free agent market - they're high-cost, marginal improvements. Upgrade at 3b? Great. High-cost, marginal improvement. Upgrade rotation? High-cost, Marginal improvement. Upgrade at catcher? High cost, marginal improvement.

 

Right now we've got a corner OF slot where it seems like we can make more than a marginal improvement, but that's it, and there's a chance Semien might be moved to one of those spots too.

[caulfield12]

While the Sox magically add nothing, right?

 

 

I'm going with PTAC's take on things until proven otherwise.

 

The Cubs are going to be under HUGE pressure to bring in a top-line starting pitcher.

 

We'll undoubtedly have a new LFer, but expecting the equivalent of Shields, Russell Martin, Melky Cabrera and an established/veteran closer in one offseason is just asking for tons of disappointment if you're a White Sox fan and have watched free agent markets come and go over the years.

 

 

The fact of the matter is THIS is the offseason to do it, as we SHOULDN'T have that protected first round draft pick again. Have to strike now, rather than extending the window for competing (and risking a Sale injury) out another year into the uncertain future.

Edited August 28, 2014 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

You've just run into my problem with most of the moves that people have suggested in the free agent market - they're high-cost, marginal improvements. Upgrade at 3b? Great. High-cost, marginal improvement. Upgrade rotation? High-cost, Marginal improvement. Upgrade at catcher? High cost, marginal improvement.

 

Right now we've got a corner OF slot where it seems like we can make more than a marginal improvement, but that's it, and there's a chance Semien might be moved to one of those spots too.

 

Which offensively in 2015, MIGHT be a marginal improvement over DeAza/Viciedo...and Semien's defense is a complete unknown out there as well.

 

Can we just assume he'll play CFer about as well as Alcantara has for the Cubs? Well, he can't hit in the 220's with limited power like Arismendy and hold down LF because it's not like we have the equivalent of Baez/Bryant/Soler arriving on the scene in the power department.

 

 

Then you look at the #1 LFer available, Melky Cabrera, giving him more money than Jose Abreu and watching it blow up in your face is a ticket to disaster for Rick Hahn. You could just as easily substitute the name Colby Rasmus there as well. Easier said than done finding this year's Seth Smith or Willingham's offensive production the first year he came to the Twins. Justin Morneau in Colorado or Victor Martinez at his advanced age in that pitcher's park known as Comerica, etc.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

[/b]

 

Which offensively in 2015, MIGHT be a marginal improvement over DeAza/Viciedo...and Semien's defense is a complete unknown out there as well.

 

Can we just assume he'll play CFer about as well as Alcantara has for the Cubs? Well, he can't hit in the 220's with limited power like Arismendy and hold down LF because it's not like we have the equivalent of Baez/Bryant/Soler arriving on the scene in the power department.

 

 

Then you look at the #1 LFer available, Melky Cabrera, giving him more money than Jose Abreu and watching it blow up in your face is a ticket to disaster for Rick Hahn. You could just as easily substitute the name Colby Rasmus there as well. Easier said than done finding this year's Seth Smith or Willingham's offensive production the first year he came to the Twins. Justin Morneau in Colorado or Victor Martinez at his advanced age in that pitcher's park known as Comerica, etc.

No, why would we assume he can play Cf when he's been a 2b? Corner OF is a step up in difficulty, why on Earth would we push him to CF? We have at least 1 anyway.

[Jerksticks]

Danish, Hawkins, Anderson & Jared Mitchell. 3 1/2 first-rounders; does that get Stanton?

 

I feel like Anderson and Danish in a package should get us to any discussion table.

[Balta1701]

Danish, Hawkins, Anderson & Jared Mitchell. 3 1/2 first-rounders; does that get Stanton?

 

I feel like Anderson and Danish in a package should get us to any discussion table.

No.

[witesoxfan]

That's just a marginal improvement over two positions, and when you consider the allocation of resources (let's say $30 million minimum for Headley, if not $40-50), it doesn't make a whole lotta sense. Especially when a lot of posters are already expecting a down/correction year from Conor, and we just don't know the effect of being a full-time DH would have on him or any younger player.

 

If you're going to do that, you should really double down and spend another $20-30 million on an MVP caliber player in Sandoval (or even Hanley Ramirez) and try to get him straightened out offensively when paired with the strength and conditioning guys/Hermie.

 

Or I'd rather spend the money you're spending on Headley for Billy Butler at DH, because I tend to think he's a much better bet for the next three seasons at USCF putting up some monster years. Chase at this point in his career just isn't a reliable middle-of-the-order hitter. As it stands right now, we don't have anyone that you can confidently put there with Abreu, not even Avisail.

 

So when someone mentioned Headley and I just said that he'd play 3B instead of DH over Gillaspie because he's a better defensive player, we get Caulfield mentioning that Sandoval is an MVP caliber player. This has gone full blown crazy.

 

Sandoval: .285/.326/.429, .328 wOBA, 115 wRC+ - that's an MVP caliber player? No. He's legitimately had 2 seasons where he put up All-Star level numbers, and that's it. Jose Abreu is putting up MVP caliber numbers this year. Sandoval has never really gotten close to those numbers.

 

 

 

[Rowand44]

Danish, Hawkins, Anderson & Jared Mitchell. 3 1/2 first-rounders; does that get Stanton?

 

I feel like Anderson and Danish in a package should get us to any discussion table.

Nope.

[witesoxfan]

Danish, Hawkins, Anderson & Jared Mitchell. 3 1/2 first-rounders; does that get Stanton?

 

I feel like Anderson and Danish in a package should get us to any discussion table.

 

Jared Mitchell has 0 value right now.

 

Danish, Montas, Anderson, and Garcia might get you on the discussion table.

[caulfield12]

So when someone mentioned Headley and I just said that he'd play 3B instead of DH over Gillaspie because he's a better defensive player, we get Caulfield mentioning that Sandoval is an MVP caliber player. This has gone full blown crazy.

 

Sandoval: .285/.326/.429, .328 wOBA, 115 wRC+ - that's an MVP caliber player? No. He's legitimately had 2 seasons where he put up All-Star level numbers, and that's it. Jose Abreu is putting up MVP caliber numbers this year. Sandoval has never really gotten close to those numbers.

 

Fine, experienced post-season/World Series player who at least has that type of proven, run-producing offensive ability, compared to Chase Headley at this point in his career.

 

We could have a poll, who would you rather have, Chase Headley at $30 million for 3 years or Pablo Sandoval at, let's say, $70 million for four seasons, and who do you think would win in a landslide?

 

Headley's only had one really good offensive season in the last 3-4, Sandoval's been MUCH more consistent over that time.

 

 

[iamshack]

The question itself is very difficult to answer...future core? First of all, how far into the future? Secondly, assuming the answer is 2-5 years from now, you'd have to take the Cubs. The players they have in their minor league system are by far more universally acclaimed than the White Sox. However, this is akin to counting chickens before they hatch or on one's crop prior to the harvest. A lot of things can happen to effect potential outcomes.

 

As of today, the White Sox have the better core. However, that wasn't the question.

[caulfield12]

No, why would we assume he can play Cf when he's been a 2b? Corner OF is a step up in difficulty, why on Earth would we push him to CF? We have at least 1 anyway.

 

 

I was putting up the comparison of Semien going to LF with Alcantara from 2B to CF with the Cubs...Semien DEFINITELY won't be in CF, unless Adam Eaton gets injured yet again.

[southsider2k5]

Danish, Hawkins, Anderson & Jared Mitchell. 3 1/2 first-rounders; does that get Stanton?

 

I feel like Anderson and Danish in a package should get us to any discussion table.

 

We finally have a prospect that the Marlins would want. Rodon. Go from there.

[RockRaines]

I'm going with PTAC's take on things until proven otherwise.

 

The Cubs are going to be under HUGE pressure to bring in a top-line starting pitcher.

 

We'll undoubtedly have a new LFer, but expecting the equivalent of Shields, Russell Martin, Melky Cabrera and an established/veteran closer in one offseason is just asking for tons of disappointment if you're a White Sox fan and have watched free agent markets come and go over the years.

 

 

The fact of the matter is THIS is the offseason to do it, as we SHOULDN'T have that protected first round draft pick again. Have to strike now, rather than extending the window for competing (and risking a Sale injury) out another year into the uncertain future.

LOL, take his view if you want, I know for a FACT the Sox will be spenders when its time, and big ones at that. That is why they are focused on as many cost controlled assets as possible. The Sox are in a position to spend just as much as the Cubs.

[cabiness42]

Why are we discussing acquiring infielders? That ranks 7th on the Sox priority list behind bullpen, starting pitching, outfielder, catcher, DH and hot dog vendor.

 

Here is the current 2015 IF depth chart:

 

1B: Abreu, Gillaspie

2B: Sanchez, Semien

SS: Ramirez, Semien

3B: Gillaspie, Semien

 

There is no need there. Unless 1-2 of the aforementioned guys are sent out in a trade for a SP or LF, then there aren't going to be any IF acquisitions.

 

(Also, not meaning to short Semien in any way. He could very well win the 2B job, and even if he doesn't, I expect he would get plenty of starts at 2B/3B.)

[RockRaines]

Why are we discussing acquiring infielders? That ranks 7th on the Sox priority list behind bullpen, starting pitching, outfielder, catcher, DH and hot dog vendor.

 

Here is the current 2015 IF depth chart:

 

1B: Abreu, Gillaspie

2B: Sanchez, Semien

SS: Ramirez, Semien

3B: Gillaspie, Semien

 

There is no need there. Unless 1-2 of the aforementioned guys are sent out in a trade for a SP or LF, then there aren't going to be any IF acquisitions.

 

(Also, not meaning to short Semien in any way. He could very well win the 2B job, and even if he doesn't, I expect he would get plenty of starts at 2B/3B.)

Where are you playing Micah Johnson?

[flavum]

I like Sanchez, but he's getting traded this winter.

[cabiness42]

LOL, take his view if you want, I know for a FACT the Sox will be spenders when its time, and big ones at that. That is why they are focused on as many cost controlled assets as possible. The Sox are in a position to spend just as much as the Cubs.

 

You would be in a position to know better, but I've always gotten the sense that the Sox base their offers on what they think each player is worth, as opposed to spending to a set budget. They think that Player A is worth $X and Player B is worth $Y and if they can get those players for those dollars, great, and if not then move on to the next targets. Sometimes you get your targets and spend right up against any maybe a bit beyond the budget number and sometimes your targets all get more than you think they are worth and you start the season under budget. And if that really is how it works then I'm fine with that.

[Rowand44]

Where are you playing Micah Johnson?

At the ugh please don't take Semien's spot, position.

[caulfield12]

Why are we discussing acquiring infielders? That ranks 7th on the Sox priority list behind bullpen, starting pitching, outfielder, catcher, DH and hot dog vendor.

 

Here is the current 2015 IF depth chart:

 

1B: Abreu, Gillaspie

2B: Sanchez, Semien

SS: Ramirez, Semien

3B: Gillaspie, Semien

 

There is no need there. Unless 1-2 of the aforementioned guys are sent out in a trade for a SP or LF, then there aren't going to be any IF acquisitions.

 

(Also, not meaning to short Semien in any way. He could very well win the 2B job, and even if he doesn't, I expect he would get plenty of starts at 2B/3B.)

 

Because we have a HUGE need for a DH bat as well, so you can see rotating players in and out...Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez with his recent injury track record would be another prime example, Headley or Conor, etc.

 

 

 

Pablo Sandoval has finished 7th in an MVP vote, won a World Series MVP and made 2 All-Star teams.

 

But it's crazy to think of him as more of an MVP-caliber player than Chase Headley? C'mon.

 

[witesoxfan]

We finally have a prospect that the Marlins would want. Rodon. Go from there.

 

Then the trade is getting tabled until next July, when Rodon for Stanton straight up makes sense (crosses fingers).

[cabiness42]

Where are you playing Micah Johnson?

 

Until I see better OBP from him, I'm playing him on the same patch of dirt he played this year.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

Then the trade is getting tabled until next July, when Rodon for Stanton straight up makes sense (crosses fingers).

 

Yeah, I don't think that ever happens, but I am more going towards what it would take to get the guy. I see no non-Rodon offer we could make for Stanton, that someone else wouldn't blow away.

[Boopa1219]

Who dose the Sox core consist of?

 

Because I cant define them, and when you cant define your core then you dont have one.

[cabiness42]

Because we have a HUGE need for a DH bat as well, so you can see rotating players in and out...Sandoval, Hanley Ramirez with his recent injury track record would be another prime example, Headley or Conor, etc.

 

Pablo Sandoval has finished 7th in an MVP vote, won a World Series MVP and made 2 All-Star teams.

 

But it's crazy to think of him as more of an MVP-caliber player than Chase Headley? C'mon.

 

Right, huge need for a DH bat, which really ought to be somebody who at the very least outhits Dunn this year.

 

With Gillaspie able to play 3B/1B and Semien able to play 2B/3B/LF, the Sox have the luxury of being able to pursue the two best hitters they can get, regardless of position, as long as at least one of the two can play a position other than DH/1B.

 

If the two best hitters they can get aren't better than Dunn, then just bring Dunn back.

 

Gillaspie at 3B and Dunn at DH >> Gillaspie at DH and Sandoval at 3B, at least from an offensive standpoint. Factor in that Sandoval is probably going to cost more than Dunn and it doesn't really make sense.

 

This is what you have to keep in mind if you want to move Gillaspie from 3B to DH: .812 is a fantastic OPS for a 3B. .812 is a decent OPS for a DH. Find somebody who will put up an OPS better than .812. If that guy happens to be a better 3B than Gillaspie, then fine, move Gillaspie to DH, but moving Gillaspie to DH so you can make room for a .755 OPS guy at 3B is counterproductive.