2015 Offseason

[caulfield12]

The Sox made it known that Garcia was off limits last offseason. I don't see how that would change now, especially considering his value probably hasn't changed much.

 

Unless the Sox have identified a flaw in his hitting mechanics....not that they're to be trusted too much with hitters, but perhaps there's reason to have a lot more faith in Steverson than Walker or Manto, so there's that.

Edited September 11, 2014 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

So you would say the Rays are doing well right now...by including last season's results? That's PART of the truth, sure...but you could just as easily argue they'd be fighting for the playoffs now with Shields AND PRICE AND Wade Davis. Not to mention their attendance has been abysmal...even more abysmal than usual for them.

 

At any rate, I made a bet with Dick Allen that Beckham would hit under .240 and he wouldn't ever mention Don Cooper again...not sure if he's going to honor that one.

 

So a second one. I'd be more than happy to wager whatever you want that the Royals are going to make the playoffs at least this season. The Royals making the playoffs for the first time in 29 years without a single player with more than 20 homers or 100 RBI's is pretty strong evidence of the difference he's made to that team.

 

With how poorly their offense has performed, no, I don't think so. They weren't competing with David Price, why would replacing someone like Jake Odorizzi with James Shields have effected their position that greatly?

 

I'm not wagering that a team that's in first place will or will not make the playoffs - they probably will. I'm just calling bulls*** on you implying that the Rays regret trading Shields and that they haven't done anything without him when they clearly have. They're still considered one of the premier organizations in the game despite their lack of spending for a reason.

[The Ultimate Champion]

Okay so here, consider this:

 

Rotation:

Sale-Shields/Latos-Quintana-Noesi-Rodon

 

Pen:

reclamation project/bargain signing for closer

7th & 8th primarily you have Putnam & Petricka

Guerra is your 6th inning guy

you sign/trade for a lefty setup man

Carroll/Bassitt/Rienzo battle for the long man role

1 spot left for a lefty (ideally) but if all the lefties blow you take another righty

 

L C Castro (trade for him amirite?)

R 1B Abreu

S 2B Sanchez

R SS Alexei

S 3B Headley (signing)

S DH VMart

L/R LF Platoon Connor & Tank, with Connor the backup 3B, some 1B time as well and Tank as your other player you may at another position should you desire

L CF Eaton

R RF Avi

 

Bench: Some guy at C, Semien UT, Moistness, Leury for defense & s*** also running fast

 

All we have to do is make a bunch of trades & signings and tear the free agent market a new asshole but hey it could be done....

Edited September 11, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[Dick Allen]

Unless the Sox have identified a flaw in his hitting mechanics....not that they're to be trusted too much with hitters, but perhaps there's reason to have a lot more faith in Steverson than Walker or Manto, so there's that.

You really need to get off the hitting coaches. The reason the Sox offense is better this year is a few new players. If they don't add Abreu and Eaton, Steverson is the new idiot.

 

Viciedo really isn't better. Beckham really isn't better. Ramirez has been what he was previously with so called morons as hitting coaches. Gillaspie really isn't a for sure thing. De Aza wasn't better. Flowers has had his moments, but really, does anyone really think he is significantly changed?

[The Ultimate Champion]

Unless the Sox have identified a flaw in his hitting mechanics....not that they're to be trusted too much with hitters, but perhaps there's reason to have a lot more faith in Steverson than Walker or Manto, so there's that.

Perhaps?

 

What do you mean "perhaps"?

[Dick Allen]

JR said back of the rotation starter, so that pretty much eliminates guys like Latos and Shields.

[caulfield12]

TUC, respectfully, I just don't think Castro and Headley quite move the meter to push us into contention. (And trading Flowers and Gillaspie to get Castro and then replacing him with Chase make our team payroll go up $10-15 million but AT BEST put us around the .500 mark, and that's being EXTREMELY optimistic IMO).

 

They're solid veteran players, but it just feels like a "place-holding" move, waiting for 2016. Same thing with a declining Andre Ethier.

 

 

I would like to see a risk taken, whether it's on Shields, or Josh Hamilton, or Matt Kemp.

 

Or even dumping John Danks, although we all know how likely that is to actually happen, being White Sox fans. Sure, Keppinger and Downs were pushed out the door, but those are different situations and nothing like the money involved with Danks.

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

JR said back of the rotation starter, so that pretty much eliminates guys like Latos and Shields.

If that's our plan we might as well sign no one. Throw out another prospect/project because the tanking continues.

 

BTW as an aside anyone else think the whole "let's wait 'til July" stuff is ridiculous? Like, let's just spot patch a bit and plan on pissing away the first half of our season but hey, if we're surprised then maybe we'll change course! Stupid. They should either try to win or sign no one, and try to find another young arm with some potential to give Danks starts to.

[witesoxfan]

Okay so here, consider this:

 

Rotation:

Sale-Shields/Latos-Quintana-Noesi-Rodon

 

Pen:

reclamation project/bargain signing for closer

7th & 8th primarily you have Putnam & Petricka

Guerra is your 6th inning guy

you sign/trade for a lefty setup man

Carroll/Bassitt/Rienzo battle for the long man role

1 spot left for a lefty (ideally) but if all the lefties blow you take another righty

 

L C Castro (trade for him amirite?)

R 1B Abreu

S 2B Sanchez

R SS Alexei

S 3B Headley (signing)

S DH VMart

L/R LF Platoon Connor & Tank, with Connor the backup 3B, some 1B time as well and Tank as your other player you may at another position should you desire

L CF Eaton

R RF Avi

 

Bench: Some guy at C, Semien UT, Moistness, Leury for defense & s*** also running fast

 

All we have to do is make a bunch of trades & signings and tear the free agent market a new asshole but hey it could be done....

 

I still see no reason why Houston would trade Castro despite the down year. I also still don't know why so many people are trying to move Gillaspie to LF. Also, signing Victor Martinez at this point is an incredibly risky move. Regardless of giving up the draft pick, you are talking about bringing in a 36 year old who is having a career year on a multi-year deal likely worth $15 mill per year. I mean, it's been so long, I'm trying to remember the last time the Sox brought in a 30+ year old DH on a multi-year deal...I don't remember how that one panned out. Oh well, I'm sure everything would be fine.

[Dick Allen]

TUC, respectfully, I just don't think Castro and Headley quite move the meter to push us into contention. (And trading Flowers and Gillaspie to get Castro and then replacing him with Chase make our team payroll go up $10-15 million but AT BEST put us around the .500 mark, and that's being EXTREMELY optimistic IMO).

 

They're solid veteran players, but it just feels like a "place-holding" move, waiting for 2016. Same thing with a declining Andre Ethier.

 

 

I would like to see a risk taken, whether it's on Shields, or Josh Hamilton, or Matt Kemp.

 

Or even dumping John Danks, although we all know how likely that is to actually happen, being White Sox fans. Sure, Keppinger and Downs were pushed out the door, but those are different situations and nothing like the money involved with Danks.

Josh Hamilton? LMAO.

[The Ultimate Champion]

TUC, respectfully, I just don't think Castro and Headley quite move the meter to push us into contention. (And trading Flowers and Gillaspie to get Castro and then replacing him with Chase make our team payroll go up $10-15 million but AT BEST put us around the .500 mark, and that's being EXTREMELY optimistic IMO).

 

They're solid veteran players, but it just feels like a "place-holding" move, waiting for 2016. Same thing with a declining Andre Ethier.

 

 

I would like to see a risk taken, whether it's on Shields, or Josh Hamilton, or Matt Kemp.

 

Or even dumping John Danks, although we all know how likely that is to actually happen, being White Sox fans. Sure, Keppinger and Downs were pushed out the door, but those are different situations and nothing like the money involved with Danks.

I think Castro is a much better player than he showed this year. OTOH I am not convinced Flowers will be anything but maddening and streaky, and while I like Gillaspie, in the right deal I'd consider.

 

Also I wouldn't expect Headley to be a 2012 Headley smacking out 30 HR and hitting for average and yadda yadda yadda, I was thinking something more like Joe Crede pre-back issues, i.e. defense, some pop, a few key HRs and ideally hitting above .260 and helping out the lower third of the lineup while adding balance to the order. Buy low sell high!!!

[Dick Allen]

I still see no reason why Houston would trade Castro despite the down year. I also still don't know why so many people are trying to move Gillaspie to LF. Also, signing Victor Martinez at this point is an incredibly risky move. Regardless of giving up the draft pick, you are talking about bringing in a 36 year old who is having a career year on a multi-year deal likely worth $15 mill per year. I mean, it's been so long, I'm trying to remember the last time the Sox brought in a 30+ year old DH on a multi-year deal...I don't remember how that one panned out. Oh well, I'm sure everything would be fine.

The time before that, it wound up OK. There were signs Dunn was on the downslope. He struggled the second half of 2009 and had never played in the AL or been pretty much a full time DH. There were a bunch of red flags. VMart is far less risky and a totally different hitter even if he is a little older. He isn't a swing and a miss type of guy. I think these guys age better. Harold Baines put up big numbers between ages 36 and 40.

[The Ultimate Champion]

I still see no reason why Houston would trade Castro despite the down year. I also still don't know why so many people are trying to move Gillaspie to LF. Also, signing Victor Martinez at this point is an incredibly risky move. Regardless of giving up the draft pick, you are talking about bringing in a 36 year old who is having a career year on a multi-year deal likely worth $15 mill per year. I mean, it's been so long, I'm trying to remember the last time the Sox brought in a 30+ year old DH on a multi-year deal...I don't remember how that one panned out. Oh well, I'm sure everything would be fine.

You just have to fight with me!!!! Seriously you're smart enough to tell the difference between Victor Martinez and Adam Dunn as hitters.

 

Also, admit it: you'd be excited if we went into ST with a team that was worth a s*** for once. Overall there has been little reason for excitement every season since 2011 which obviously was a bomb. The best things we were looking forward to were things like Sale as a starter, Abreu's debut, s***ty players finally being gone, etc. but over the last 3 ST there was never any reason to consider the Sox a contender for anything.

[Dick Allen]

You just have to fight with me!!!! Seriously you're smart enough to tell the difference between Victor Martinez and Adam Dunn as hitters.

 

Also, admit it: you'd be excited if we went into ST with a team that was worth a s*** for once. Overall there has been little reason for excitement every season since 2011 which obviously was a bomb. The best things we were looking forward to were things like Sale as a starter, Abreu's debut, s***ty players finally being gone, etc. but over the last 3 ST there was never any reason to consider the Sox a contender for anything.

It will be nice when the time finally comes where we don't have to say "if these 20 things work out", the Sox should be really good.

[caulfield12]

Josh Hamilton? LMAO.

 

 

You haven't been reading these threads carefully enough.

 

 

I'm not the proponent of Josh Hamilton.

 

I'll stand by hoped-for James Shields or Matt Kemp moves, though.

[Dick Allen]

You haven't been reading these threads carefully enough.

 

 

I'm not the proponent of Josh Hamilton.

 

I'll stand by hoped-for James Shields or Matt Kemp moves, though.

How can they bring those guys in with their current attendance?

[whitesoxfan99]

The time before that, it wound up OK. There were signs Dunn was on the downslope. He struggled the second half of 2009 and had never played in the AL or been pretty much a full time DH. There were a bunch of red flags. VMart is far less risky and a totally different hitter even if he is a little older. He isn't a swing and a miss type of guy. I think these guys age better. Harold Baines put up big numbers between ages 36 and 40.

 

He was good in the second half of 2009 and in 2010 the year before the Sox signed him he was just fine in July and August and then struggled in September. However, he had sucked even worse in September of 2009 and September has been by far his worst month for production throughout his career so I don't really see how there were any red flags there.

 

I don't disagree with you on VMart as a hitter though.

[caulfield12]

How can they bring those guys in with their current attendance?

 

 

How can they NOT?

 

It's a business. They can be pretty profitable again with a $65-75 million payroll and finish 5-10 games under .500, or they can start going for it again like they did in 2011 with the Dunn acquisition.

 

If they don't, the White Sox are in danger of becoming completely irrelevant to all but a smattering of dwindling die-hards.

 

Other than Sale and Abreu, there's just no reason for anyone in the national media to follow this team or manager.

 

 

I would be perfectly happy to go up to $90 million over 4 years for Shields. That still might not get it done. He might get $100+ now. I'd at least try.

 

If you put our payroll somewhere in the mid 50's (with Flowers, Nate Jones, Viciedo probably)....then that bumps it up to the high 70's.

 

We started this year around $91 million. That would leave money for one "second tier hitter" for DH (like an Adam Lind) and we'd have to be incredibly strategic and prescient about which reliever/s we brought in for another $5-7.5 million...in that Downs/Belisario second tier again. Maybe hoping for a bounceback from Jim Johnson, not sure....Frieri, someone who still has the stuff but mentally struggling.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

The time before that, it wound up OK. There were signs Dunn was on the downslope. He struggled the second half of 2009 and had never played in the AL or been pretty much a full time DH. There were a bunch of red flags. VMart is far less risky and a totally different hitter even if he is a little older. He isn't a swing and a miss type of guy. I think these guys age better. Harold Baines put up big numbers between ages 36 and 40.

 

Martinez is substantially older at this point than Dunn was and has a storied injury history that includes two real bad knees from catching so long. I agree that his skillset probably ages better, but that's why it's still working five year past where Dunn began to turn into a role player -- age will still catch up and there's more of it at play than ever.

 

I think you've got an argument that Martinez at 31 is less risky than Dunn at 31, but I can't see one that says Martinez at 37 is less risky than Dunn at 31.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[witesoxfan]

The time before that, it wound up OK. There were signs Dunn was on the downslope. He struggled the second half of 2009 and had never played in the AL or been pretty much a full time DH. There were a bunch of red flags. VMart is far less risky and a totally different hitter even if he is a little older. He isn't a swing and a miss type of guy. I think these guys age better. Harold Baines put up big numbers between ages 36 and 40.

 

Paul Molitor was OK too but he was a bit less consistent season to season too. I don't think Martinez would be as bad as Dunn nor as flawed a hitter, but is bringing him in on a 3/$45 deal (just a guess, maybe he wouldn't get that) for this team going to be a move that puts them over the top? The reason you bring in players at that point in their career is if they do put your team over the top or they come very cheaply. Even if it's still productive and good, I don't feel like it's a stretch to say that it's all downhill from here for Victor.

 

You just have to fight with me!!!! Seriously you're smart enough to tell the difference between Victor Martinez and Adam Dunn as hitters.

 

Also, admit it: you'd be excited if we went into ST with a team that was worth a s*** for once. Overall there has been little reason for excitement every season since 2011 which obviously was a bomb. The best things we were looking forward to were things like Sale as a starter, Abreu's debut, s***ty players finally being gone, etc. but over the last 3 ST there was never any reason to consider the Sox a contender for anything.

 

I can't say with any sort of certainty how excited I'd be or, rather, how much more excited I'd be than normal in Spring Training. I don't think that team is ready to win a division or move on in the playoffs, and Shields and Martinez aren't getting any younger. It would be nice to take those cogs away from division rivals, but they could also replace them just as well or find production elsewhere.

 

Also, going into 2012, I was really excited that Ozzie was gone, and the team came out and played their ass off all year.

[harfman77]

I can see Hahn trading for Samarddjzia and one of Dom Brown or Pedro Alvarez. Then in free agency pursuing someone like Emilio Bonifacio.

 

CF Eaton

2B Sanchez

1B Abreu

DH Alvarez or Brown/Viciedo

RF Garcia

3B Gillaspie

SS Ramirez

LF Semien/Bonifacio

C Flowers

 

Semien and Bonifacio can play around the diamond spelling other guys in addition to splitting time in LF.

I think they will add three pitchers, someone like Masterson, Billingsley, or Floyd on a smaller one year deal with a team option and then a couple bullpen guys like Franklin Morales and a rebound guy like Jim Johnson, Andrew Bailey or Chris Perez.

 

SP Sale

SP Samardjzia

SP Quintana

SP Danks

SP Noesi/Masterson

 

[Dick Allen]

Martinez is substantially older at this point than Dunn was and has a storied injury history that includes two real bad knees from catching so long. I agree that his skillset probably ages better, but that's why it's still working five year past where Dunn began to turn into a role player -- age will still catch up and there's more of it at play than ever.

 

I think you've got an argument that Martinez at 31 is less risky than Dunn at 31, but I can't see one that says Martinez at 37 is less risky than Dunn at 31.

Martinez will turn 36 in December. You sign him for 3 years, you pay him through his age 38 season. You do HAVE to take risks. I think Martinez is a good calculated gamble. He is what you need. A switch hitter, a middle of the order bat, who makes more contact than anyone else on your team.

 

As I have mentioned before, I think some team will probably offer him the moon, but maybe not. I would guess NL teams aren't going to be interested. Maybe the Yankees. Boston has Ortiz. Detroit has to be interested, but who know where they will be at with their payroll, and with all the injuries, it may be time Cabrera moves to DH. Maybe KC to take Butler's place. Maybe Oakland, but at least most of the big spenders will be sitting his bidding out.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

How can they bring those guys in with their current attendance?

 

think about it this way, which came first the chicken or the egg?

 

how can someone think about attendance with out putting the product on the field. you also

have to remember the mentality of the sox fans. we are a tough sell and we demand high

rtns for our investment of season tickets.

 

the northsiders thing of the game as social time. I also remember back in the 80's the newpaper

came out a how to define the sCrubs fan and sox fan. during a game you ask the northsider what

going on, that person wouldn't even know what you are talking about. now ask the sox fan and

the response with be given in terms of score, men on base, trade possiblility, the performance of pitcher,

what the GM needs to do and whether the sox have a chance of playoff.

[greg775]

How can they NOT?

 

It's a business. They can be pretty profitable again with a $65-75 million payroll and finish 5-10 games under .500, or they can start going for it again like they did in 2011 with the Dunn acquisition.

 

If they don't, the White Sox are in danger of becoming completely irrelevant to all but a smattering of dwindling die-hards.

 

Other than Sale and Abreu, there's just no reason for anyone in the national media to follow this team or manager.

 

 

I would be perfectly happy to go up to $90 million over 4 years for Shields. That still might not get it done. He might get $100+ now. I'd at least try.

 

If you put our payroll somewhere in the mid 50's (with Flowers, Nate Jones, Viciedo probably)....then that bumps it up to the high 70's.

 

We started this year around $91 million. That would leave money for one "second tier hitter" for DH (like an Adam Lind) and we'd have to be incredibly strategic and prescient about which reliever/s we brought in for another $5-7.5 million...in that Downs/Belisario second tier again. Maybe hoping for a bounceback from Jim Johnson, not sure....Frieri, someone who still has the stuff but mentally struggling.

 

This is your best post in recent memory IMO. Sox must be relevant again. It's like they have become really really irrelevant. Like you said, this is a business more than a sport and Sox stock is down with the exception of Sale, Abreu and maybe A. Garcia.

Edited September 11, 2014 by greg775

[ILMOU]

Martinez will turn 36 in December. You sign him for 3 years, you pay him through his age 38 season. You do HAVE to take risks. I think Martinez is a good calculated gamble. He is what you need. A switch hitter, a middle of the order bat, who makes more contact than anyone else on your team.

 

As I have mentioned before, I think some team will probably offer him the moon, but maybe not. I would guess NL teams aren't going to be interested. Maybe the Yankees. Boston has Ortiz. Detroit has to be interested, but who know where they will be at with their payroll, and with all the injuries, it may be time Cabrera moves to DH. Maybe KC to take Butler's place. Maybe Oakland, but at least most of the big spenders will be sitting his bidding out.

Agree hugely on VMart. He fits the profile of the slow-to-age professional hitter, as long as the overall health is there. He's a real game-changer for the lineup batting behind Jose. AND we'd be taking him from a chief rival. If nothing else, the strategy should be to force someone else to overpay for him, if the Sox can't land him.

 

Some of the whippersnappers may not remember how good Julio Franco was hitting behind the Big Hurt. It rocked. This could be similar.