Masahiro Tanaka

[ptatc]

I still don't understand why more people don't complain/comment about possible under use as a problem. I mean pitchers in the MLB and MiLB are now on schedules where they are used the least amount ever any pitchers in the history of baseball have ever been used, yet injury rates only increase.

 

I guess another part of the problem is that pitchers are also getting stronger and bigger and throwing harder than ever before and that could be a cause as to why.

 

It's so complex too because everyone is different and there are people who can go out there and throw forever and be fine, and others who seem to have a limit on how many pitches they can throw until their elbow blows up.

It starts in little league. With the limitations there, the pitchers aren't conditioned for it. I agree that they really need to throw more but at less intensity.

 

Some of it also the way the teams are invested in thepitchers. They baby them in the minors compared to 20 years ago. In previous eras, many of the pitchers today would have benn injured and never made it to the MLB. In the MLB today pitchers are less durable but the MLB through expansion, 5 man rotation and increased bullpen usage they need more pitchers.

[Dick Allen]

Who, besides Randy Johnson in recent decades.

Nolan Ryan in his 40s was throwing a ton of pitches in games. Supposedly earlier in his career, he went over 200 a few times.

 

Pitch counts didn't used to be a big deal. Now when guys get to 100, everyone starts freaking out. That can be changed. One thing that is a lot different today, is guys are throwing harder. 90 is mediocre. Almost everyone throws 90. The other thing is, your harder throwers are also throwing a lot of sliders. Most power guys, used to throw curveballs. Guys are also trying to get a lot more out of sliders than they used to as well.

[Eminor3rd]

Nolan Ryan in his 40s was throwing a ton of pitches in games. Supposedly earlier in his career, he went over 200 a few times.

 

Pitch counts didn't used to be a big deal. Now when guys get to 100, everyone starts freaking out. That can be changed. One thing that is a lot different today, is guys are throwing harder. 90 is mediocre. Almost everyone throws 90. The other thing is, your harder throwers are also throwing a lot of sliders. Most power guys, used to throw curveballs. Guys are also trying to get a lot more out of sliders than they used to as well.

 

Nolan Ryan is an outlier

[Dick Allen]

Nolan Ryan is an outlier

There were a lot of outliers before pitch counts came into vogue.

[Eminor3rd]

There were a lot of outliers before pitch counts came into vogue.

 

Not like Nolan Ryan, though. I think he might be a robot.

 

I mean seriously, Nolan Ryan pitched in the MLB during mid-60's and also pitched in the MLB during the mid-90's.

 

And he threw HARD. I think it's a pretty common consensus that pitchers of old simply did not throw as hard as the guys do today, partially due to strength and conditioning but just as much (if not more) to do with the fact that they simply held more back because they (1) knew they were expected to go the whole game and (2) they weren't expected to strike everyone out.

 

Ryan was an exception to all of that. He pitched longer than almost anyone, more frequently than almost anyone, threw harder than anyone, and struck more guys out than anyone. He is made of carbon steel and can be repaired in a machine shop, so he cannot be used as an example of what can be expected from other pitchers.

[SoxAce]

Who, besides Randy Johnson in recent decades.

Scot Shields quickly comes to mind for me. That dude's arm is/was made of rubber.

[Dick Allen]

Not like Nolan Ryan, though. I think he might be a robot.

 

I mean seriously, Nolan Ryan pitched in the MLB during mid-60's and also pitched in the MLB during the mid-90's.

 

And he threw HARD. I think it's a pretty common consensus that pitchers of old simply did not throw as hard as the guys do today, partially due to strength and conditioning but just as much (if not more) to do with the fact that they simply held more back because they (1) knew they were expected to go the whole game and (2) they weren't expected to strike everyone out.

 

Ryan was an exception to all of that. He pitched longer than almost anyone, more frequently than almost anyone, threw harder than anyone, and struck more guys out than anyone. He is made of carbon steel and can be repaired in a machine shop, so he cannot be used as an example of what can be expected from other pitchers.

Yes, but 150 pitches thrown used to be not a big deal. Probably just about every starter up until the 5 and dive mentality hit, had done it several times. Who would have ever thought pitch counts on scoreboards would become a must have addition to a ballpark? Now it's called abuse.

 

I don't think humans are made weaker, but collectively, you have more guys throwing 90+ these days, and certain pitches do put more strain on pitchers. Sliders weren't originally meant to do what pitchers want them to do today. The top power guys didn't throw sliders or cutters. TB won't even let their minor leaguers throw cutters IIRC. And speed guns everywhere I am sure makes some pitchers overthrow.

 

I was also reading that many kids are becoming more sport specific these days, and some think that may help cause the rash of injuries. Back many years ago, kids played baseball during the summer, football during the fall and basketball or hockey during the winter, developing different muscles.

[Balta1701]

Yes, but 150 pitches thrown used to be not a big deal. Probably just about every starter up until the 5 and dive mentality hit, had done it several times. Who would have ever thought pitch counts on scoreboards would become a must have addition to a ballpark? Now it's called abuse.

 

I don't think humans are made weaker, but collectively, you have more guys throwing 90+ these days, and certain pitches do put more strain on pitchers. Sliders weren't originally meant to do what pitchers want them to do today. The top power guys didn't throw sliders or cutters. TB won't even let their minor leaguers throw cutters IIRC. And speed guns everywhere I am sure makes some pitchers overthrow.

 

I was also reading that many kids are becoming more sport specific these days, and some think that may help cause the rash of injuries. Back many years ago, kids played baseball during the summer, football during the fall and basketball or hockey during the winter, developing different muscles.

There's a big reason you didn't add in that is quite easily quantified why people are going fewer innings now. The average fastball velocity has climbed by more than 1 mph in just the last 5 years, league wide. If people are throwing 150 pitches, most of them won't be able to sustain that kind of velocity even if they don't get hurt.

[Dick Allen]

There's a big reason you didn't add in that is quite easily quantified why people are going fewer innings now. The average fastball velocity has climbed by more than 1 mph in just the last 5 years, league wide. If people are throwing 150 pitches, most of them won't be able to sustain that kind of velocity even if they don't get hurt.

I did say pitchers were throwing harder these days. If you throw 90 MPH, you are a soft tosser, but power guys used to throw a lot more than 110 pitches back in the day. As I stated, those guys didn't also throw sliders or cutters. Or if they did throw a slider, it wasn't meant to be the wipeout pitch most want it to be today.

 

The increase is a cumulative thing. There are more guys on the staff who throw hard and you have 7 or 8 relievers who probably average 93 or 94.

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Nolan Ryan in his 40s was throwing a ton of pitches in games. Supposedly earlier in his career, he went over 200 a few times.

 

Pitch counts didn't used to be a big deal. Now when guys get to 100, everyone starts freaking out. That can be changed. One thing that is a lot different today, is guys are throwing harder. 90 is mediocre. Almost everyone throws 90. The other thing is, your harder throwers are also throwing a lot of sliders. Most power guys, used to throw curveballs. Guys are also trying to get a lot more out of sliders than they used to as well.

It's more the fact that there are more pitchers needed in today's game. Many of the pitchers on rosters now would have been injured or burned out in the minors 10-15 years ago. The slider isn't the problem. It's the fact that pitchers are trying to throw harder more often. Part of this is that they know they only need to go 6 innings.

[LDF]

It's more the fact that there are more pitchers needed in today's game. Many of the pitchers on rosters now would have been injured or burned out in the minors 10-15 years ago. The slider isn't the problem. It's the fact that pitchers are trying to throw harder more often. Part of this is that they know they only need to go 6 innings.

 

alot of you are missing the point. Tanaka threw 160 on day 1 of the playoff, the

next day, day 2 of the playoff he threw an additonal 15+ innings in relief not including

the rest of the playoff games. this on top of throwing a 200 + innings of regular season.

 

over use

[greg775]

Jim Maloney threw 160 or more pitches in his no hitter. Before pitch counts became a fad that was not unusual

[greg775]

Yes, but 150 pitches thrown used to be not a big deal. Probably just about every starter up until the 5 and dive mentality hit, had done it several times. Who would have ever thought pitch counts on scoreboards would become a must have addition to a ballpark? Now it's called abuse.

 

I don't think humans are made weaker, but collectively, you have more guys throwing 90+ these days, and certain pitches do put more strain on pitchers. Sliders weren't originally meant to do what pitchers want them to do today. The top power guys didn't throw sliders or cutters. TB won't even let their minor leaguers throw cutters IIRC. And speed guns everywhere I am sure makes some pitchers overthrow.

 

I was also reading that many kids are becoming more sport specific these days, and some think that may help cause the rash of injuries. Back many years ago, kids played baseball during the summer, football during the fall and basketball or hockey during the winter, developing different muscles.

 

Yep. There is way too much specialization. Aau basketball. Traveling teams in baseball. Kids can't be kids and play many sports

[LDF]

Jim Maloney threw 160 or more pitches in his no hitter. Before pitch counts became a fad that was not unusual

 

and i remember a pitcher who pitch a double hitter, i believe for the

white sox. those pitcher had a limited life span, with re to pitching.

[Dick Allen]

With Tony LaRussa as his manager, the godfather of specialized relief pitcher usage, Tom Seaver threw 10 complete games in 1984 as a 39 year old, which didn't include pitching 1 inning of a previously suspended game and going 8 1/3 in the regular game right after the same evening.

 

He also threw 6 complete games as a 40 year old under LaRussa. The old school pitchers where able to do this. The younger guys, not so much.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2014 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

It is just like anything else. You have to be conditioned for it. You aren't throwing complete games if you are conditioned to throw 100 pitches.

[Dick Allen]

It is just like anything else. You have to be conditioned for it. You aren't throwing complete games if you are conditioned to throw 100 pitches.

Yes, but it boggles my mind why teams don't do this more often. The White Sox seemingly have moved the bar to 115-120.

 

 

It would be interesting reading a gamethread where there was no gun or a pitch count wasn't available and no one would count pitches, how different the comments would be on managerial handling of the starter if he went far enough into the game, that it made a difference.

 

Before they started showing pitch counts on broadcasts and in the park, it was a number that was so disinteresting, Baseball-Reference doesn't even have the numbers well into the 1980s.

[southsider2k5]

Yes, but it boggles my mind why teams don't do this more often. The White Sox seemingly have moved the bar to 115-120.

 

 

It would be interesting reading a gamethread where there was no gun or a pitch count wasn't available and no one would count pitches, how different the comments would be on managerial handling of the starter if he went far enough into the game, that it made a difference.

 

Before they started showing pitch counts on broadcasts and in the park, it was a number that was so disinteresting, Baseball-Reference doesn't even have the numbers well into the 1980s.

 

And contrary to the popular belief on pitch counting, White Sox pitchers are historically amongst the healthiest in all of baseball.

[LDF]

Yes, but it boggles my mind why teams don't do this more often. The White Sox seemingly have moved the bar to 115-120.

 

 

It would be interesting reading a gamethread where there was no gun or a pitch count wasn't available and no one would count pitches, how different the comments would be on managerial handling of the starter if he went far enough into the game, that it made a difference.

 

Before they started showing pitch counts on broadcasts and in the park, it was a number that was so disinteresting, Baseball-Reference doesn't even have the numbers well into the 1980s.

 

i remember a time when the game will start and the pitchers are throwing in the 92+

then by the end of the game they are at and 87 range.

 

the other point is they were expected to complete the game started.

[Eminor3rd]

I think it's the by-product of optimization. Any time you push the human body to its limits, you are increasing injury risk. I think that teams have shown they would much rather carry more pitchers and squeeze every ounce from them than to sacrifice any level of performance for the sake of longevity. It's the nature of the beast in an environment where supply is unlimited -- you're never going to run out of guys who are willing to do what it takes for a shot at the show.

[ptatc]

I think it's the by-product of optimization. Any time you push the human body to its limits, you are increasing injury risk. I think that teams have shown they would much rather carry more pitchers and squeeze every ounce from them than to sacrifice any level of performance for the sake of longevity. It's the nature of the beast in an environment where supply is unlimited -- you're never going to run out of guys who are willing to do what it takes for a shot at the show.

This is it. The controversy is would Sale throwing 91 in the 7,8 and 9th inning be better than any of the fresh relivers? The answer is the Sale would be but many of the other pitchers would not. So to work with the pen the teams "dumb down" the really good pitchers to the level of the guys who would not be in the league 15 years ago.

 

The supply may be unlimited but the quality of that supply is not.

[Chisoxfn]

This is it. The controversy is would Sale throwing 91 in the 7,8 and 9th inning be better than any of the fresh relivers? The answer is the Sale would be but many of the other pitchers would not. So to work with the pen the teams "dumb down" the really good pitchers to the level of the guys who would not be in the league 15 years ago.

 

The supply may be unlimited but the quality of that supply is not.

I've always kind of wondered, since starters have a bullpen session anyway on the side, why certain teams have never tried to maximize their talented pitchers and let them have an in-game bullpen session. At least in situations where your teams pen is thin from a couple bad starts, etc. I presume the answer is the bullpen session is far less intense then an in-game session, so it really isn't the same and thus you are adding unwanted stressful innings to the pitcher.

[LDF]

I did say pitchers were throwing harder these days. If you throw 90 MPH, you are a soft tosser, but power guys used to throw a lot more than 110 pitches back in the day. As I stated, those guys didn't also throw sliders or cutters. Or if they did throw a slider, it wasn't meant to be the wipeout pitch most want it to be today.

 

The increase is a cumulative thing. There are more guys on the staff who throw hard and you have 7 or 8 relievers who probably average 93 or 94.

 

another point is alot of young players are pitching and are expected to use

an assortment of different pitches to be successful.

[LDF]

This is it. The controversy is would Sale throwing 91 in the 7,8 and 9th inning be better than any of the fresh relivers? The answer is the Sale would be but many of the other pitchers would not. So to work with the pen the teams "dumb down" the really good pitchers to the level of the guys who would not be in the league 15 years ago.

 

The supply may be unlimited but the quality of that supply is not.

 

speaking of sale, do you remember when robin kept sale in the game,

early in the season. sale wounded up missing some time b/c of a sore

arm.

[ptatc]

I've always kind of wondered, since starters have a bullpen session anyway on the side, why certain teams have never tried to maximize their talented pitchers and let them have an in-game bullpen session. At least in situations where your teams pen is thin from a couple bad starts, etc. I presume the answer is the bullpen session is far less intense then an in-game session, so it really isn't the same and thus you are adding unwanted stressful innings to the pitcher.

This is correct.