Adrian Peterson indicted for negligent injury to a child

[Quin]

That tends to happen when you have 5 people misunderstanding your original point all challenging you at once.

 

Basically what I've gathered is you think hitting a child is wrong, spanking is ok, and that millennials are spoiled.

 

Please correct me if that's wrong, I'm legitimately lost.

[StrangeSox]

That tends to happen when you have 5 people misunderstanding your original point all challenging you at once.

 

But you know what, Quin?

 

This latest generation of message board posters knows everything; all the parenting experience that has occurred throughout the history of human civilization should be summarily dismissed with a wave of the hand because those people are stupid and need to go away.

on the other hand, plenty of cultural traditions persist for a variety of reasons that are not related to rational thought or reflective analysis of effective techniques for survival or whatever.

[iamshack]

Basically what I've gathered is you think hitting a child is wrong, spanking is ok, and that millennials are spoiled.

 

Please correct me if that's wrong, I'm legitimately lost.

That's because my original point has been completely lost. I don't blame anyone trying to follow this for being lost.

 

Essentially, what I've tried to state is that previous generations or in other cultures have employed or do employ some techniques of discipline which were more harsh than many today seem to think are appropriate. I have not once stated that I think these are appropriate. What I think is inappropriate, is dismissing everyone with that point of view with a wave of the hand and a "those people need to go f themselves" mentality. I asked Krush to explain his rationale a bit more, instead of just asking me to take his word for it. He has, to some degree.

 

I think there is more to be gained from sharing our experiences and learning from them than summarily and judgmentally waving others away who we don't agree with, as if they are complete idiots who cannot contribute anything of value to the conversation.

 

I have seen this approach taken on any number of issues, and frankly, I find it very obnoxious.

 

As for my opinion of disciplining a child, I have no children, but I wouldn't employ spanking as a form of discipline even on a dog, if that illuminates how I feel about the issue.

[iamshack]

on the other hand, plenty of cultural traditions persist for a variety of reasons that are not related to rational thought or reflective analysis of effective techniques for survival or whatever.

All I've asked for is that everyone be invited to the table.

[Soxbadger]

Shack,

 

I wouldnt waste your time.

 

Im pretty sure your point was that each side thinks their correct and is dismissive of the other side. So before we just dismiss one side or the other, we should discuss why either side is right or wrong. As most of the argument is based on anecdotal evidence and opinion.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

That's because my original point has been completely lost. I don't blame anyone trying to follow this for being lost.

 

Essentially, what I've tried to state is that previous generations or in other cultures have employed or do employ some techniques of discipline which were more harsh than many today seem to think are appropriate. I have not once stated that I think these are appropriate. What I think is inappropriate, is dismissing everyone with that point of view with a wave of the hand and a "those people need to go f themselves" mentality. I asked Krush to explain his rationale a bit more, instead of just asking me to take his word for it. He has, to some degree.

 

I think there is more to be gained from sharing our experiences and learning from them than summarily and judgmentally waving others away who we don't agree with, as if they are complete idiots who cannot contribute anything of value to the conversation.

 

I have seen this approach taken on any number of issues, and frankly, I find it very obnoxious.

 

As for my opinion of disciplining a child, I have no children, but I wouldn't employ spanking as a form of discipline even on a dog, if that illuminates how I feel about the issue.

 

For the sake of "those people need to go f*** themselves," I'd separate your typical 'spanking' from what we see in the photos of AP's kid or the tales of people who were beat and now beat their children with extension cords, belts, etc. I have no problem with those people being told to go f*** themselves, though that isn't going to change any minds.

[greg775]

The whole "I was hit or spanked as a child and I turned out fine" crowd just needs to go away. I'm sure as kids they also didn't sit in safe infant car seats, but they turned out fine, why should kids use them now?

 

I think most reasonable people would agree spanking is wrong. My dad scared the crap out of me and my siblings and never hit us. Yet we were scared to death of him and doing anything to piss him off. Somehow he got that across without touching us.

[iamshack]

For the sake of "those people need to go f*** themselves," I'd separate your typical 'spanking' from what we see in the photos of AP's kid or the tales of people who were beat and now beat their children with extension cords, belts, etc. I have no problem with those people being told to go f*** themselves, though that isn't going to change any minds.

Fair enough, but this gives us an opportunity to discuss the issue of less-extreme forms of corporal punishment (i.e., spanking or other physical contact), which is something I'm actually interested in reading/learning about. However, everyone seems to just revert back to the extreme forms of punishment, which is a waste of time, considering not one person has posted justifying such methods.

[iamshack]

I think most reasonable people would agree spanking is wrong. My dad scared the crap out of me and my siblings and never hit us. Yet we were scared to death of him and doing anything to piss him off. Somehow he got that across without touching us.

Ok, but is this any better?

 

 

[iamshack]

Shack,

 

I wouldnt waste your time.

 

Im pretty sure your point was that each side thinks their correct and is dismissive of the other side. So before we just dismiss one side or the other, we should discuss why either side is right or wrong. As most of the argument is based on anecdotal evidence and opinion.

Where were you an hour ago?

[StrangeSox]

Fair enough, but this gives us an opportunity to discuss the issue of less-extreme forms of corporal punishment (i.e., spanking or other physical contact), which is something I'm actually interested in reading/learning about. However, everyone seems to just revert back to the extreme forms of punishment, which is a waste of time, considering not one person has posted justifying such methods.

Nobody here has, but several NFL players and many commenters around the country have.

[Soxbadger]

Where were you an hour ago?

 

 

I kept meaning to write that and then would get lazy/busy.

[iamshack]

Nobody here has, but several NFL players and many commenters around the country have.

Justifying what Peterson did? Or more typical spanking?

[greg775]

Ok, but is this any better?

 

I think anytime you don't actually hit or whip or spank somebody, yeah it's better. Although it did make me want to leave home and never come back which basically I did starting in college up to now.

[Balta1701]

Fair enough, but this gives us an opportunity to discuss the issue of less-extreme forms of corporal punishment (i.e., spanking or other physical contact), which is something I'm actually interested in reading/learning about. However, everyone seems to just revert back to the extreme forms of punishment, which is a waste of time, considering not one person has posted justifying such methods.

Every link I posted regarded spanking as a standard form of punishment and found it was strongly correlated with more violent, criminal, antisocial behavior late in life. I started off with the correlation between more violent forms which I thought you were defending, and then backed up to the "corporal punishment in general" level. Spanking in general, physical punishment in general, produces kids who grow up to be more violent, based on decades of research. When I went to five you said "please post 100 on the results of the access of poor to smartphones". You then followed it with asking about less-extreme forms of corporal punishment, clearly noting that you completely missed every single link I gave you on that subject.

 

The historical parenting setup on this produces kids who are more likely to commit violent crimes, have more issues later in life, be more violent. Spanking or other physical contact is not that different from full on physical abuse in the end result, in either case it really does bad things to the outcome of the child.

[Balta1701]

Ok, but is this any better?

Maybe, but it's moved into a harder to quantify realm because "Scared of your parent" is a different response from actual physical contact. "I was spanked for x" is an on-off, yes/no answer that you can quantify in a study. "My dad punished me and I had a fear-based response" is a very different behavior.

[Chicago White Sox]

Spanking or other physical contact is not that different from full on physical abuse in the end result, in either case it really does bad things to the outcome of the child.

Wait what? You're honestly trying to tell us that light spanking and full-on physical abuse lead to similar outcomes in life? If so, I'll call BS on that and any "scientific" study you have that claims this.

[Balta1701]

Wait what? You're honestly trying to tell us that light spanking and full-on physical abuse lead to similar outcomes in life? If so, I'll call BS on that and any "scientific" study you have that claims this.

You're right, that was poorly phrased.

 

Both are extremely bad, neither produces good results, both lead to kids who are more violent and the exact degree to which that occurs probably is obscured by other factors. In either case, Adrian Petersoning a kid and spanking a kid both lead to children who grow up to be more violent, more likely to commit violent crimes, and there is likely a variance between the levels that I cannot see is statistically significant.

 

Is that more clear?

[iamshack]

Every link I posted regarded spanking as a standard form of punishment and found it was strongly correlated with more violent, criminal, antisocial behavior late in life. I started off with the correlation between more violent forms which I thought you were defending, and then backed up to the "corporal punishment in general" level. Spanking in general, physical punishment in general, produces kids who grow up to be more violent, based on decades of research. When I went to five you said "please post 100 on the results of the access of poor to smartphones". You then followed it with asking about less-extreme forms of corporal punishment, clearly noting that you completely missed every single link I gave you on that subject.

 

The historical parenting setup on this produces kids who are more likely to commit violent crimes, have more issues later in life, be more violent. Spanking or other physical contact is not that different from full on physical abuse in the end result, in either case it really does bad things to the outcome of the child.

I wasn't responding to you in regards to posting studies about spanking when I said I'd like to see others thoughts on the matter. I read your studies and understand what they are stating. I was more interested in the opinions of other posters here, since not many wanted to address that, but rather, actions more in line with Peterson's.

[Balta1701]

I wasn't responding to you in regards to posting studies about spanking when I said I'd like to see others thoughts on the matter. I read your studies and understand what they are stating. I was more interested in the opinions of other posters here, since not many wanted to address that, but rather, actions more in line with Peterson's.

In that case I'll drop it, but I will note that you replied specifically to my post with the "now post 100 links on..." comment that I can't figure out how to take any other way than scornful, so I think I replying with that answer was appropriate. Last I'll say.

[iamshack]

In that case I'll drop it, but I will note that you replied specifically to my post with the "now post 100 links on..." comment that I can't figure out how to take any other way than scornful, so I think I replying with that answer was appropriate. Last I'll say.

Balta, I can't really fault you, despite my severe inclination for wanting to do so, for jumping into these discussions with all your studies and data, because you're just providing evidence of your point. There's nothing wrong with that. It's just extremely annoying when you're on the other side of it

It would be nice if you'd do the same sort of "aha" routine when others that are on your side of the issue make an incorrect statement, but I realize that might not be a popular thing to do either.

Edited September 18, 2014 by iamshack

[Chicago White Sox]

You're right, that was poorly phrased.

 

Both are extremely bad, neither produces good results, both lead to kids who are more violent and the exact degree to which that occurs probably is obscured by other factors. In either case, Adrian Petersoning a kid and spanking a kid both lead to children who grow up to be more violent, more likely to commit violent crimes, and there is likely a variance between the levels that I cannot see is statistically significant.

 

Is that more clear?

Yes, but I'm still going to call BS on it. First off, your comments imply spanking always leads to negative outcomes, which can't possibly be true. Second, there is no way in hell that full-on physical abuse has anywhere of a similar impact as light spanking. It's just a ridiculous suggestion and I would question the credibility of any article you post that suggests just that.

 

And can you please explain in a bit more detail what you mean by violence? Are we talking about violent crimes here? Getting into fights at school? Willing to use violence to defend yourself or your loved ones? There are varying degrees of violence and grouping them all into one bucket seems like a pretty convenient way to support this "spanking is evil" argument.

[iamshack]

Yes, but I'm still going to call BS on it. First off, your comments imply spanking always leads to negative outcomes, which can't possibly be true. Second, there is no way in hell that full-on physical abuse has anywhere of a similar impact as light spanking. It's just a ridiculous suggestion and I would question the credibility of any article you post that suggests just that.

 

And can you please explain in a bit more detail what you mean by violence? Are we talking about violent crimes here? Getting into fights at school? Willing to use violence to defend yourself or your loved ones? There are varying degrees of violence and grouping them all into one bucket seems like a pretty convenient way to support this "spanking is evil" argument.

I read the studies and they make sense, but I'm skeptical as to the controls and just how you separate a kid that gets spanked frequently with one that gets spanked sparingly or infrequently. One would think frequent spankings are also correlated with lower income, educational level, potential alcohol and/or drug abuse within the family, all of which probably correlate to weaker parenting skills.

 

I just wondering if we're talking about the kid who gets his ass kicked a few times a week or the kid who gets whacked maybe once every three months for kicking the family dog. Or both.

 

Edit: Balta, feel free to comment on your studies.

Edited September 19, 2014 by iamshack

[Balta1701]

I read the studies and they make sense, but I'm skeptical as to the controls and just how you separate a kid that gets spanked frequently with one that gets spanked sparingly or infrequently. One would think frequent spankings are also correlated with lower income, educational level, potential alcohol and/or drug abuse within the family, all of which probably correlate to weaker parenting skills.

 

I just wondering if we're talking about the kid who gets his ass kicked a few times a week or the kid who gets whacked maybe once every three months for kicking the family dog. Or both.

 

Edit: Balta, feel free to comment on your studies.

Sparingly or extremely infrequently is going to be something incredibly hard to control for. If you go through those references, one person presents a small study with a not-statistically significant sample size that finds a slightly positive response, but then the same person who conducted the study is quoted as saying that she can count the number of studies who find a positive effect on 1 hand whereas there are hundreds of studies on the other side.

 

That's the issue with probabilities. It's entirely possible that under certain circumstances there is a slightly positive response, but determining those circumstances is going to be very difficult and it may not be possible to know that beforehand. There's probably a finite chance of a positive result from a very occasional thing for extreme behavior and there's probably a finite chance that the same thing turns the kid into a sociopath.

 

The people I have seen at the grocery store where it's just an instinct for them and you debate whether you ask the person not to do that in front of you, that's the kind of kid who is going to be more prone to violence. Under the absolute correct circumstances? We don't understand the brain or its development well enough to answer that or, more importantly, to predict beforehand.

[Chicago White Sox]

I read the studies and they make sense, but I'm skeptical as to the controls and just how you separate a kid that gets spanked frequently with one that gets spanked sparingly or infrequently. One would think frequent spankings are also correlated with lower income, educational level, potential alcohol and/or drug abuse within the family, all of which probably correlate to weaker parenting skills.

 

I just wondering if we're talking about the kid who gets his ass kicked a few times a week or the kid who gets whacked maybe once every three months for kicking the family dog. Or both.

 

Edit: Balta, feel free to comment on your studies.

This a great post. Seems like there is a misunderstanding of correlation vs causation here. Balta seems to believe that spanking children directly results violent outcomes later in life. However, while spanking and future violence may be correlated, I seriously question that there is any cause and effect to the relationship. In fact, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned bad parenting skills, which is likely the true cause of future violence, not the spanking specifically.

 

I will argue with anyone that spanking can be a useful tool for parents if used appropriately (mildly) and infrequently. Obviously it should be used as a last resort or in extreme circumstances, but to say it automatically makes someone a bad parent or that their kid will be more violent in life is beyond ridiculous.