Adrian Peterson indicted for negligent injury to a child

[Jenksismyhero]

Sparingly or extremely infrequently is going to be something incredibly hard to control for. If you go through those references, one person presents a small study with a not-statistically significant sample size that finds a slightly positive response, but then the same person who conducted the study is quoted as saying that she can count the number of studies who find a positive effect on 1 hand whereas there are hundreds of studies on the other side.

 

That's the issue with probabilities. It's entirely possible that under certain circumstances there is a slightly positive response, but determining those circumstances is going to be very difficult and it may not be possible to know that beforehand. There's probably a finite chance of a positive result from a very occasional thing for extreme behavior and there's probably a finite chance that the same thing turns the kid into a sociopath.

 

The people I have seen at the grocery store where it's just an instinct for them and you debate whether you ask the person not to do that in front of you, that's the kind of kid who is going to be more prone to violence. Under the absolute correct circumstances? We don't understand the brain or its development well enough to answer that or, more importantly, to predict beforehand.

 

I was just going to say, there's a huge difference between beating kids repeatedly (and/or with a weapon) and doing it infrequently to the point where it's a realistic threat (like 3-4 times in a childhood). One is not acceptable, the other I don't really have a problem with and no study is going to prove it will create some monster later in life. Abuse begets abuse, I can buy that. But not a few occasions. And btw, those same studies will say that yelling at kids isn't effective and is more harmful than good, yet 99% of parents do it anyway.

 

Slightly related, f*** anyone that says bulls*** like "if your kids are out of control you're a bad parent." That's 100% bulls*** with little kids. Maybe a 16 year old you can say there's a failure in parenting, but not a kid under say like 6-7. Kids are wired from the day they're born to have certain traits. One of those is being incredibly strong willed and independent. I have a 2 year old son who is going through the terrible twos. He tests us every chance he gets. He purposefully does things to get a rise out of us. He's the complete opposite of my wife and I (as adults anyway). We just spent 3 days at Disney and for the most part he was great, but he had a couple meltdowns where he tried to run away and wouldn't listen or he just broke down and threw a tantrum. I guarantee you there were people thinking "oh what an out of control kid, clearly the parents fault." No, f*** that. We've done everything nearly by the book (which is bulls*** in and of itself given that every child is different and every parenting of a child should be different) and we're stuck with a strong willed 2 year old.

 

My point is, if you're judging a parent, don't. You can't use your experience as any kind of basis for what that parent is doing right or wrong. You won the kid lottery. You have a kid that listens and doesn't run off, etc. Great for you. Just leave it at that.

 

Just so it's said - I think Peterson is an asshole and should never be near kids or in the NFL. Hitting a kid with sticks, especially to the point you leave bruises and blood, is abuse and shouldn't be tolerated. But yelling and the occasional spank? I don't have a problem with it. Me and my siblings, my wife, a lot of my friends all had the same experience - a few spanks and a bunch of threats and we're all very civilized, non-violent people.

 

Lastly, catching up on the thread was an entertaining read. Iamshack, I agree with your general point, despite others not really getting what you were saying.

[Balta1701]

This a great post. Seems like there is a misunderstanding of correlation vs causation here. Balta seems to believe that spanking children directly results violent outcomes later in life. However, while spanking and future violence may be correlated, I seriously question that there is any cause and effect to the relationship. In fact, I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned bad parenting skills, which is likely the true cause of future violence, not the spanking specifically.

 

I will argue with anyone that spanking can be a useful tool for parents if used appropriately (mildly) and infrequently. Obviously it should be used as a last resort or in extreme circumstances, but to say it automatically makes someone a bad parent or that their kid will be more violent in life is beyond ridiculous.

I want to stress, I also have not said that, or if I did I didn't say this correctly.

 

On the other point...that's one of the things that makes it harder to come up with an answer and why you don't go with just a single study. You do lots and try to control for different things. When they're all piling up on one side and the effect appears regardless of the level of parenting skills, then you start treating it as an independent variable, and most of the studies available (especially the big ones) are trying to do that.

[StrangeSox]

Justifying what Peterson did? Or more typical spanking?

Calvin Johnson and Reggie Bush seemed to be backing Peterson, as did Charles Barkley.

[iamshack]

Calvin Johnson and Reggie Bush seemed to be backing Peterson, as did Charles Barkley.

Well, I'm sorry to hear that. They are most likely where they are in spite of those beliefs.

 

 

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Lies, damn lies, and...

[StrangeSox]

Message board posts?

[cabiness42]

Calvin Johnson and Reggie Bush seemed to be backing Peterson, as did Charles Barkley.

 

I heard Chuck on the DP show and he didn't so much back Peterson as much as he was bashing the media for getting overly self-righteous. He said AP did something wrong, needs to have consequences, and then get back to business.

[LittleHurt05]

Calvin Johnson and Reggie Bush seemed to be backing Peterson, as did Charles Barkley.

 

Bush's original quotes on CNN: "I most definitely discipline my daughter. I have a 1-year old daughter" "I definitely will try to obviously not leave bruises but I definitely will discipline her harshly depending on what the situation is."

 

 

[Dick Allen]

One thing that is barely mentioned about AP, which makes what he did even worse, was stuffing the kid's mouth with leaves. Obviously he doesn't want others to hear the kid scream. It makes me think he at least had an inkling what he was doing was wrong.

[StrangeSox]

Bush's original quotes on CNN: "I most definitely discipline my daughter. I have a 1-year old daughter" "I definitely will try to obviously not leave bruises but I definitely will discipline her harshly depending on what the situation is."

A one-year old child. Jesus.

[StrangeSox]

One thing that is barely mentioned about AP, which makes what he did even worse, was stuffing the kid's mouth with leaves. Obviously he doesn't want others to hear the kid scream. It makes me think he at least had an inkling what he was doing was wrong.

This sort of harsh discipline seems to be mainly about the parent gratifying their frustrations and anger (over their own abuses, stress in the rest of their life, failures in parenting, whatever) than anything else.

[IlliniKrush]

I heard Chuck on the DP show and he didn't so much back Peterson as much as he was bashing the media for getting overly self-righteous. He said AP did something wrong, needs to have consequences, and then get back to business.

Yes, Chuck, let's blame the media on this one for being concerned about someone that beat the f*** out of a 4 year old (and doesn't appear to be the first time).

 

This isn't a speeding ticket.

 

One thing that is barely mentioned about AP, which makes what he did even worse, was stuffing the kid's mouth with leaves. Obviously he doesn't want others to hear the kid scream. It makes me think he at least had an inkling what he was doing was wrong.

I brought that up before, but yes, I agree, right there shows me he was abusing him and getting some sort of emotional satisfaction out of it and was well intot he category of abuse, not just "disciplining."

[IlliniKrush]

A one-year old child. Jesus.

Just don't leave bruises!

[bmags]

A one-year old child. Jesus.

 

A child that young, their nerve endings are still not fully formed. That's why scratching a baby is somewhat excruciating for them. Maybe it's better at 1 year old, but physically disciplining a 1 year old is a horrible and abusive idea.

[NorthSideSox72]

Bush's original quotes on CNN: "I most definitely discipline my daughter. I have a 1-year old daughter" "I definitely will try to obviously not leave bruises but I definitely will discipline her harshly depending on what the situation is."

Well that's awful. A 1 year old? Christ. Forget even the nerve stuff mentioned earlier - a 1 year old is incapable of even realizing they are doing things wrong most of the time.

 

 

[caulfield12]

And yet the "tiger mom" effect of very harsh scolding intimidation psychological bruising...while it results in childhood control leads to teenage/adult rebellion and lots of kids here in china alienated from parents.

 

The response back...everyone gets a medal lets have a politically correct play date it's okay if my kid is grossly overweight and addicted to computer games or porn instead of having bleeding hands from playing the violin or cello...there has to be a middle ground of reasonableness that avoids over permissiveness but also disqualifies rich kids being psychologically tortured by parents who always act like they know more than anyone else.

 

For example many Asian students have to do well in math or they will be beaten bruised battered by their parents...but I doubt balta can correlate flat or falling math and science scores with "positive parenting" whatever that means these days.

Edited September 19, 2014 by caulfield12

[Jenksismyhero]

Yes, Chuck, let's blame the media on this one for being concerned about someone that beat the f*** out of a 4 year old (and doesn't appear to be the first time).

 

This isn't a speeding ticket.

 

 

I brought that up before, but yes, I agree, right there shows me he was abusing him and getting some sort of emotional satisfaction out of it and was well intot he category of abuse, not just "disciplining."

 

You have to admit this is just something else for people to talk about and be pseudo fake outraged over. Can we get back to domestic abuse? Oh and the Redskins name? Or have we exhausted our outrage on those already?

[southsider2k5]

You have to admit this is just something else for people to talk about and be pseudo fake outraged over. Can we get back to domestic abuse? Oh and the Redskins name? Or have we exhausted our outrage on those already?

 

 

Damn, I wish had had room to be outraged at more than one thing at a time.

[StrangeSox]

That's just a lame response that can be applied to anything that's getting attention.

[Jenksismyhero]

So 3 days ago everyone was outraged over child abuse right? And 6 months ago everyone was outraged over domestic violence right? And a year ago everyone was outraged about the name Redskins right?

 

The media absolutely should cover these stories, and in some ways it's good that they become more high profile so that the country can be reminded that these terrible people/events exist. But it IS a little over the top when the media covers the story, and then takes the next step of asking stupid questions like does the nfl have domestic abuse problem? are all nfl players violent? etc.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Jenksismybitch

[southsider2k5]

So 3 days ago everyone was outraged over child abuse right? And 6 months ago everyone was outraged over domestic violence right? And a year ago everyone was outraged about the name Redskins right?

 

The media absolutely should cover these stories, and in some ways it's good that they become more high profile so that the country can be reminded that these terrible people/events exist. But it IS a little over the top when the media covers the story, and then takes the next step of asking stupid questions like does the nfl have domestic abuse problem? are all nfl players violent? etc.

 

Just because something isn't in the news, doesn't mean people suddenly don't disapprove of it.

[StrangeSox]

I think it's safe to say that 3 weeks ago, I would have been just as appalled to learn about a child being beaten with a stick to the point of bruising and bleeding as I am today. It's not weird for people to express their opinions on a topic when the topic comes up in current events. It sometimes takes a major event that happens to get the public's attention for whatever reason to expose deeper problems that have been there for a while but weren't made so obvious before.

[bmags]

I guess jenks's point is that in his perfect world, we would not be upset about women being hospitalized by their fiancees and 4 year olds getting whipped in the testicles with a tree branch.

 

Ahh what a world, free of the oppressive stench of PCism, where you can beat your wife without fear of people being condescending.

[Jake]

Some kids are always "out of control" because they have mental illnesses. For instance, 5% of children have ADHD. That means they will not simply get better because they are being given timeout/scoldings/spankings/etc. That's only one example.

 

It's important to give families leniency in the way they raise their children. Even if we didn't desire to give families broad leeway in the way they do child rearing, no society could hope to enforce draconian rules on these things anyway. With that said, you don't own your child. They are not your property. So you can't do whatever you want with them. They have rights and don't have the ability to stand up for them. We have to make sure we stand up for them as a society and draw lines where we decide lines must be drawn.

 

Anyone that has been involved with DCFS or foster parenting knows that to the best of our knowledge, it is usually best for kids to stick with the people who raised them if it is at all possible/conscionable. So it isn't about taking children away. I'm not 100% convinced that Adrian Peterson is incapable of being a father to his children. After he is punished and hopefully educated, I hope he gets to play some fatherly role in his children's lives. He doesn't get infinite chances to do this, but his children deserve a father. But he has to quit hitting those kids. You cut your little boy's legs up with a f***ing stick, alarming two medical doctors? You have forfeited whatever right other people have for corporal punishment.

[Jenksismyhero]

I guess jenks's point is that in his perfect world, we would not be upset about women being hospitalized by their fiancees and 4 year olds getting whipped in the testicles with a tree branch.

 

Ahh what a world, free of the oppressive stench of PCism, where you can beat your wife without fear of people being condescending.

 

Be outraged, but don't act like it's the biggest deal in the world. This criticism of mine applies more to the tone and narrative used by the media than individuals reacting to the story.