Balta1701 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 04:59 PM) That is a team that had talent and had a disasterous clubhouse and underplayed their level of talent. What part of coaching to the level of talent is missing in the concept. Firing a guy cause they don't make the playoffs because you have a bad roster is just foolish, unless there were things from a player development standpoint and grander scale which you have issues with. Reality is team played hard for Robin till the end, players got along, young guys got chances, some guys took step forward, etc. Bottom line this was never a playoff team and the team didn't underachieve drastically and if it did it was because our pen was terrible not because Robin was terrible. There is zero logical reason to fire Robin given his current contract, etc. And I don't know what manager you are referring to but I'm presuming you are assuming Donny baseball gets fired. Well, he made some poor baseball decisions and there were significant chemistry issues in the clubhouse, etc. Oh and this was a 2nd consecutive year with playoff disappointments. It also was a team loaded with talent, including arguably the best 3 man rotation in baseball with Kershaw, Grienke, Ryu. Really, wait a second, didn't someone post in the NLDS thread that Mattingly was fired? D'Oh. And anyway, no 2014 is not the season Robin Ventura deserved to be fired for, 2013 was. Since that didn't happen when it should have, the next time he deserves to be fired is when the Sox spend money and the team fails. If they spend a boatload of money this offseason and they aren't a playoff team, then there better be a darn good excuse for why, because that would mean something went very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 02:07 PM) Really, wait a second, didn't someone post in the NLDS thread that Mattingly was fired? D'Oh. And anyway, no 2014 is not the season Robin Ventura deserved to be fired for, 2013 was. Since that didn't happen when it should have, the next time he deserves to be fired is when the Sox spend money and the team fails. If they spend a boatload of money this offseason and they aren't a playoff team, then there better be a darn good excuse for why, because that would mean something went very wrong. You should be evaluated based upon the level of talent on the team and your individual performance. If you paid 150M on payroll and 80M of guys are out for season, you shouldn't fire them. There isn't some magical scorecard you can look at (there are a plethora of factors to consider) and a year ago, Robin was saved because he had one year where his team drastically overachieved and then 2013 happened. Even then, just because payroll was high, team was still saddled by players who while they may have made a lot of money, weren't necessarily worth that money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 03:59 PM) That is a team that had talent and had a disasterous clubhouse and underplayed their level of talent. What part of coaching to the level of talent is missing in the concept. Firing a guy cause they don't make the playoffs because you have a bad roster is just foolish, unless there were things from a player development standpoint and grander scale which you have issues with. But those other issues are often there and what you look for when rebuilding. Is this manager the person to get you to the next level when you have the personnel in place. There's little about Ventura that indicates he knows what he's doing, imo. And even the defenders can't really itemize the good things he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 04:07 PM) Really, wait a second, didn't someone post in the NLDS thread that Mattingly was fired? D'Oh. And anyway, no 2014 is not the season Robin Ventura deserved to be fired for, 2013 was. Since that didn't happen when it should have, the next time he deserves to be fired is when the Sox spend money and the team fails. If they spend a boatload of money this offseason and they aren't a playoff team, then there better be a darn good excuse for why, because that would mean something went very wrong. lol yea I said he was fired, two seconds after Matt Adams hit his homerun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 04:07 PM) Really, wait a second, didn't someone post in the NLDS thread that Mattingly was fired? D'Oh. And anyway, no 2014 is not the season Robin Ventura deserved to be fired for, 2013 was. Since that didn't happen when it should have, the next time he deserves to be fired is when the Sox spend money and the team fails. If they spend a boatload of money this offseason and they aren't a playoff team, then there better be a darn good excuse for why, because that would mean something went very wrong. So it was Robin's fault Paulie and Dunn made a combined $27.5 million in 2013 and sucked,Thanks for the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 09:45 PM) But those other issues are often there and what you look for when rebuilding. Is this manager the person to get you to the next level when you have the personnel in place. There's little about Ventura that indicates he knows what he's doing, imo. And even the defenders can't really itemize the good things he does. Your post is ridiculous IMO. You said, "There's little about Ventura that indicates he knows what he's doing, imo." How can you say that? No manager in the history of baseball would have been able to win any more games with that pathetic bullpen. Robin actually did a helluva job coaxing as many saves as he did out of that s*** bullpen. He switched closers at exactly the right time, riding a few of them for as many saves as anybody possibly could. When the current "closer" closed himself out of a job, Robin switched at exactly the right time. There's no way in hell any fair person could disagree with his use of the bullpen. Of course the bullpen made him look bad several times. Again, nobody could have made better bullpen choices. To all the Coop lovers ... when is he going to "fix" some of these bullpen guys as he does starters? Next ... you could argue Robin did some stupid things like bunt when you didn't want him to. These are criticisms of basically all managers that bunt. Whenever a manager calls for a bunt you could criticize such a call. HOWEVER many managers still do call for the bunt. Just say you hate the bunt and managers that call for the bunt in ANY instance, don't pin it on Robin. It's still a play firmly implanted in baseball's "book." As far as defense and bonehead decisions by players ... I will accept a possible criticism there of Robin. I have no idea if they work on defense and baserunning and bunting enough during spring training and/or the regular season. It's possible he's deficient in working on these skills enough. Finally, the use of everyday players and the batting order ... considering the entire roster, he pretty much used the players perfectly. Nobody was clamoring for any certain player to play more. He played the best guys and did a damn fine job of managing a roster that was exceedingly deficient. And as far as the clubhouse ... by all accounts he's done a marvelous job. His handling of the Sale incident appears to be masterful. By all accounts, we've been told the players like him. I'm assuming they respect him; I have no way of knowing that. Edited October 9, 2014 by greg775 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 03:07 PM) Really, wait a second, didn't someone post in the NLDS thread that Mattingly was fired? D'Oh. And anyway, no 2014 is not the season Robin Ventura deserved to be fired for, 2013 was. Since that didn't happen when it should have, the next time he deserves to be fired is when the Sox spend money and the team fails. If they spend a boatload of money this offseason and they aren't a playoff team, then there better be a darn good excuse for why, because that would mean something went very wrong. That 2012 team basically SHOULD have been at 84-78 with Peavy, Rios, Dunn, Sale, Quintana, Konerko, Alexei, Viciedo having a strong rookie year, AJ's offensive performance, a pretty solid bullpen. Tha main argument in Robin's favor was blending in all of those inexperienced pitchers/rookies and keeping the team together until the very end, as well as whatever magical pixie dust he spread around the diamond to get above-average defensive play for most of that season. The bigger enigma is how the 2013 team fell so far off from what they were capable of producing...at least based on their historical performances coming into that year. Of course, there were injuries, but that's only PART of the story of why the team imploded in the 2nd half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 09:56 PM) Your post is ridiculous IMO. You said, "There's little about Ventura that indicates he knows what he's doing, imo." How can you say that? No manager in the history of baseball would have been able to win any more games with that pathetic bullpen. Interesting. You do realize that the Giants, Tigers and Dodgers had WORSE bullpens statistically? Speaking of ridiculous posts. If you think Robin got more wins out of this team or last year's team than the talent warranted, then we'll just have to disagree. People want to make excuses for this guy...another reason hiring house horses is a bad idea. Edited October 10, 2014 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 At midseason, it wasn't outrageous to predict that Ned Yost would be fired Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 8, 2014 -> 11:45 PM) That 2012 team basically SHOULD have been at 84-78 with Peavy, Rios, Dunn, Sale, Quintana, Konerko, Alexei, Viciedo having a strong rookie year, AJ's offensive performance, a pretty solid bullpen. Tha main argument in Robin's favor was blending in all of those inexperienced pitchers/rookies and keeping the team together until the very end, as well as whatever magical pixie dust he spread around the diamond to get above-average defensive play for most of that season. The bigger enigma is how the 2013 team fell so far off from what they were capable of producing...at least based on their historical performances coming into that year. Of course, there were injuries, but that's only PART of the story of why the team imploded in the 2nd half. And trading our two best players, having our best RP get hurt and traded (Crain), another RP get traded (Thornton), and somewhat intentionally tanking for a draft pick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2nd_city_saint787 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 9, 2014 -> 08:23 PM) Interesting. You do realize that the Giants, Tigers and Dodgers had WORSE bullpens statistically? Speaking of ridiculous posts. If you think Robin got more wins out of this team or last year's team than the talent warranted, then we'll just have to disagree. People want to make excuses for this guy...another reason hiring house horses is a bad idea. Using what statistic? You can make an argument for the Tigers being worse, but they also had a rotation and a lineup to cover it up for the most part. San Fran had arguably one of the best with their league best .217 BAA. Only thing the Dodgers struggled at were walks, and even then they walked less than the Sox. I'm young enough to barely remember RV as a manager so I'm not making excuses for the guy because I was a fan. Edited October 10, 2014 by scs787 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 9, 2014 -> 07:23 PM) Interesting. You do realize that the Giants, Tigers and Dodgers had WORSE bullpens statistically? Speaking of ridiculous posts. If you think Robin got more wins out of this team or last year's team than the talent warranted, then we'll just have to disagree. People want to make excuses for this guy...another reason hiring house horses is a bad idea. The White Sox were 4th from the bottom in terms of SV/SVO percentage, in the low 60's. That said, Houston and Colorado were MUCH worse, one of those teams was at only 48%. The White Sox were firmly in the third tier, but there were a ton of teams with save conversion rates from 63-69%. Of course, if you look at the Royals, they were something like 72-1 with a lead going into the 7th or after the 7th, can't remember which. Holland had just two blown saves the entire season. I think one of those Twins' teams, either 2006 or 2010, they also had only one loss in that same situation (with the lead after the 7th). The White Sox, someone said, lost 23 of those games this year...that they were either tied or leading in the 7th/8th/9th. That's the MAIN reason for optimism about 2015, the theory they simply CAN'T be that bad again. But it wasn't a historic level of ineptitude. I'm sure the 2007 bullpen was even worse statistically. Edited October 10, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Colorado was the only bullpen with a higher FIP than the White Sox ans the White Sox bullpen xFIP was the worst in baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 QUOTE (Jake @ Oct 9, 2014 -> 08:31 PM) At midseason, it wasn't outrageous to predict that Ned Yost would be fired It's not outrageous to think Ned Yost should be fired after the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 03:07 AM) It's not outrageous to think Ned Yost should be fired after the playoffs. I chuckle at all the criticism of managers. He implements the bunt. Big deal. Lots of teams still bunt. His one mistake this year IMO was bringing in Ventura in relief the other night. Other than that it's just fans being fans in criticizing him. If you lose you can always blame the manager. People are blaming Robin for certain moves he makes with the historically inept bullpen. So dumb IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 QUOTE (greg775 @ Oct 10, 2014 -> 05:24 PM) I chuckle at all the criticism of managers. He implements the bunt. Big deal. Lots of teams still bunt. His one mistake this year IMO was bringing in Ventura in relief the other night. Other than that it's just fans being fans in criticizing him. If you lose you can always blame the manager. People are blaming Robin for certain moves he makes with the historically inept bullpen. So dumb IMO. I think Bochy had someone bunt who has never bunted and led to the only Giants win. It would have been interesting had that failed if his decision would have been thought of as the same amount of idiocy it certainly would have been referred had Yost called for it or even Robin. Robin gets crap for bunting even though the facts are he bunts less than everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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