Ventura unlikely to be fired this off season

[Vance Law]

um, no. That's a prediction.

 

I won't be mad if I'm proven wrong, but that's my guess. This team will continue to be undisciplined, uncaring, they'll spend money at some point and the first fact won't change. They'll buffoon themselves into an 82 win season after Hahn blows $40 million a year in the offseason and someone will have to take the blame.

 

Bizarre take.

[GreenSox]

I literally cannot agree with one bit of that statement. They have won a WS title, they have added payroll and players to contend and even though it hasnt worked out since they still are trying to win. This rebuilding job IMO shows they want to win, and they want to stay a winning club.

The WS was 9 years ago.

Wanting to win is different from doing what it takes to win.

Sentimentality, pampering certain players, undue concerns with team chemistry (much of it as a result of the utter lack of leadership from the field manager), worries about upset fans if their favorite player is traded....the Sox over-prioritize all of the above.

And Robin Ventura won't be managing this team next year if they are really serious about winning.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GreenSox

[RockRaines]

The WS was 9 years ago.

Wanting to win is different from doing what it takes to win.

Sentimentality, pampering certain players, undue concerns with team chemistry (much of it as a result of the utter lack of discipline from the field manager), worries about upset fans if their favorite player is traded....the Sox over-prioritize all of the above.

And yet there have been several offseasons where we thought we had a shot to win the WS.....

[caulfield12]

And yet there have been several offseasons where we thought we had a shot to win the WS.....

 

2006 was long ago as well....2009 nobody knew how Quentin would come back and 2011 will prevent sox fans from ever getting excited again about the addition of a thome/Dunn-esque slugger.

Edited September 20, 2014 by caulfield12

[GreenSox]

Tampa Bay must be a bunch of fools. Joe Maddon, despite losing 101 games his first year and 96 his second is STILL managing the team.

So Ventura is now Joe Madden

 

Lord this whole show is turning into the Cubs.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GreenSox

[2nd_city_saint787]

So Ventura is now Joe Madden

 

Lord this whole show is turning into the Cubs.

 

I believe his point was to show you that "good managers" doesn't equal "good teams".

 

Hell, Maddens team this year is only 4 games better than the Sox....With a bullpen that pans out this season the Sox are at least a few games better than the Rays.

 

Again people like to bring up the defense when talking about Robin, and I brought this up in a game thread the the day...The bottom 3 teams in errors this season are Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Oakland. Those teams are lead by Terry Francona (Last years AL manager of the year), Clint Hurdle(Last years NL manager of the year), and Bob Melvin(2012s AL manager of the year)....Now I know awards can be perceived as irrelevant, but wouldn't you say those guys are viewed as "good managers"? Why are their ball clubs last in errors?

Edited September 20, 2014 by scs787

[GreenSox]

I believe his point was to show you that "good managers" doesn't equal "good teams".

 

Hell, Maddens team this year is only 4 games better than the Sox....With a bullpen that pans out this season the Sox are at least a few games better than the Rays.

Joe Madden is widely considered one of the best managers in baseball.

It's using the exception to prove the rule.

 

Madden's teams have played above the quality of their roster. The Sox did not have a 63 win roster last year.

 

The Sox pen has blown games...but the pen has also been under undue pressure all year due to a 2 man rotation (plus 5th starter Noesi).

I hope that the front office doesn't miss the real weakness here: the rotation.

Edited September 20, 2014 by GreenSox

[BlackSox13]

Oh s***! Look!

 

Another thread where Ventura is thrashed for every little thing that goes wrong!

 

Hurry, call the whaaambulance before the toddlers fudge their Huggies, again.

 

I'm not saying Robin is a good or bad manager and I don't believe that can be determined until he is given a decent team to actually manage. What the f*** did Sox fans expect from the manager of a rebuilding baseball club? I admit, Robin makes some bad calls but good grief all managers do sometimes.

 

The Sox have far more pressing issues than Robin.

Edited September 20, 2014 by StRoostifer

[2nd_city_saint787]

Joe Madden is widely considered one of the best managers in baseball.

It's using the exception to prove the rule.

 

Madden's teams have played above the quality of their roster. The Sox did not have a 63 win roster last year.

 

The Sox pen has blown games...but the pen has also been under undue pressure all year due to a 2 man rotation (plus 5th starter Noesi).

I hope that the front office doesn't miss the real weakness here: the rotation.

 

They've also had the ability to develop pitching like no other organization. While the quality of their hitting had always been lackluster, their pitching staff had always made up for it.

 

 

[caulfield12]

I believe his point was to show you that "good managers" doesn't equal "good teams".

 

Hell, Maddens team this year is only 4 games better than the Sox....With a bullpen that pans out this season the Sox are at least a few games better than the Rays.

 

Again people like to bring up the defense when talking about Robin, and I brought this up in a game thread the the day...The bottom 3 teams in errors this season are Cleveland, Pittsburgh, and Oakland. Those teams are lead by Terry Francona (Last years AL manager of the year), Clint Hurdle(Last years NL manager of the year), and Bob Melvin(2012s AL manager of the year)....Now I know awards can be perceived as irrelevant, but wouldn't you say those guys are viewed as "good managers"? Why are their ball clubs last in errors?

What about overall fielding percentage and team uzr?

[Dick Allen]

So Ventura is now Joe Madden

 

Lord this whole show is turning into the Cubs.

Clearly, using your logic, after his first two seasons losing close to 200 games, the last thing Joe Maddon should be doing is managing major league baseball games. Losing that many games according to you, has to do with the manager, roster be damned.

Edited September 20, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

What about overall fielding percentage and team uzr?

Team's UZR rating is on the manager?

[southsider2k5]

So Ventura is now Joe Madden

 

Lord this whole show is turning into the Cubs.

 

Everyone is turning the Cubs into WS champs, so this is great!

[LDF]

Oh s***! Look!

 

Another thread where Ventura is thrashed for every little thing that goes wrong!

 

Hurry, call the whaaambulance before the toddlers fudge their Huggies, again.

 

I'm not saying Robin is a good or bad manager and I don't believe that can be determined until he is given a decent team to actually manage. What the f*** did Sox fans expect from the manager of a rebuilding baseball club? I admit, Robin makes some bad calls but good grief all managers do sometimes.

 

The Sox have far more pressing issues than Robin.

 

 

oh man, my head is pounding and laughing is not helping.

 

funny ....... a great post.

[2nd_city_saint787]

What about overall fielding percentage and team uzr?

 

Sox have the same fielding% as Oakland and Pittsburgh, Cleveland has the worst....again, the managers of those teams have all won manager of the year the last 2 years.

 

I don't even know how UZR is calculated so I didn't quote it, but the Indians (Lead by the guy a lot of guys here wanted) and Pittsburgh have worse ratings. Sox -38.6 Pitt -41.0 Indians -67.3.

 

So Terry Francona, a guy a lot of people here wish was our manager, and a 2x WS Champ is leading a team that is worse defensively. Is Tito a bad manager or are managers pretty much irrelevant?

[The Ultimate Champion]

Admittedly I haven't been watching a ton of White Sux baseball this year, usually I'll just watch an inning or PA or maybe a couple innings at any given time and I'll have the radio on otherwise if at all. So I'm not sure what the deal is here but a couple weeks ago I looked up Q's season numbers and was suprised to see he looked like he'd miss or maybe just barely hit the 200IP plateau this year. I know he's had some bad starts like the Royals game where he gave up lik 45 runs in 2 innings, and I know he has his games where the pitch count goes way up early but I certainly hope Robin hasn't been pulling this guy around the 100 pitch mark routinely. Even if it comes with a slight increase in ERA and decrease in peripheral stats, in a rebuilding year the manager needs to do everything he can to get someone like Q to 220IP.

 

Again I haven't been watching enough to know when Robin has been pulling him. Maybe fangraphs has pitches per start or something? Robin famously didn't trust Quintana much at all his first season but he has shown some continued faith in Sale this year (which I like, even though Sale is faltered in some of those situations, because it's necessary for his development). So maybe Robin has given him a long leash & Q just hasn't been quite that good, but if not, and Robin has been cutting him short based on pitch count then that's a pretty big developmental error on his part IMO.

Edited September 20, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[The Ultimate Champion]

Sox have the same fielding% as Oakland and Pittsburgh, Cleveland has the worst....again, the managers of those teams have all won manager of the year the last 2 years.

 

I don't even know how UZR is calculated so I didn't quote it, but the Indians (Lead by the guy a lot of guys here wanted) and Pittsburgh have worse ratings. Sox -38.6 Pitt -41.0 Indians -67.3.

 

So Terry Francona, a guy a lot of people here wish was our manager, and a 2x WS Champ is leading a team that is worse defensively. Is Tito a bad manager or are managers pretty much irrelevant?

It's not an either/or thing. Francona is probably a pretty good manager overall. Managers, simply from a clubhouse attitude/atmosphere type of thing, cannot possibly be irrelevant. Look at what happened to Boston's clubhouse after Francona was canned and Bobby Valentine came in and tried to split up the cliques. Look at what happened to this team's clubhouse in Ozzie's last couple years. And that's Robin's specialty supposedly, but managing the game counts too, especially when a team is actually good enough (and posters here are right when they say Robin couldn't manage this team into a winner anyway). I think at best this guy needs to be s***canned before we try to win anything, and maybe at that point a vet manager like Francona would work well. Unless Robin gets a lot better in other areas of course.

Edited September 20, 2014 by The Ultimate Champion

[BlackSox13]

 

oh man, my head is pounding and laughing is not helping.

 

funny ....... a great post.

Thank you sir.

 

Have a few too many drinks last night?

[2nd_city_saint787]

It's not an either/or thing. Francona is probably a pretty good manager overall. Managers, simply from a clubhouse attitude/atmosphere type of thing, cannot possibly be irrelevant. Look at what happened to Boston's clubhouse after Francona was canned and Bobby Valentine came in and tried to split up the cliques. Look at what happened to this team's clubhouse in Ozzie's last couple years. And that's Robin's specialty supposedly, but managing the game counts too, especially when a team is actually good enough (and posters here are right when they say Robin couldn't manage this team into a winner anyway). I think at best this guy needs to be s***canned before we try to win anything, and maybe at that point a vet manager like Francona would work well. Unless Robin gets a lot better in other areas of course.

 

Perhaps I should have said irrelevant when it comes to defense. So you think Robin should be s***canned but we should hire a guy who's defense has been MUCH worse defensively?

 

As you can tell by my signature I firmly believe that managers simply put their players in a position to win and it's up to the players to execute.

 

 

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm not sure why wins & losses is the only way to evaluate a manager around here. Clearly they can't make up for a lack of talent, so saying "look at how bad the Rays were when Maddon started" is completely pointless. The talent will always make the manager look better or worse if you're focused on the team's W-L record.

 

If you want to evaluate a manager, look at his in-game decision-making. Review his strategies in close games. Try to get a sense of the team's effort, especially during times of struggle. How does he handle young players? Does he give bench players and relievers enough playing time to keep them fresh? The point I'm getting at is to evaluate managers on the things they can control, not the things can't like talent.

 

IMO, Robin is a poor manager regardless of the talent level. He may have been a childhood favorite, but as a manager I think he fails in a lot of the areas I mentioned above.

 

 

[The Ultimate Champion]

Perhaps I should have said irrelevant when it comes to defense. So you think Robin should be s***canned but we should hire a guy who's defense has been MUCH worse defensively?

 

As you can tell by my signature I firmly believe that managers simply put their players in a position to win and it's up to the players to execute.

I think that you need a guy who can:

1) deal with the clubhouse, get the players to play for him/not quit on him, deal with personal stuff, have player conversations

2) deal with the media/keep the players focusing on baseball as much as possible, keep stuff out of & away from the media people

3) communicate with the other coaches & FO

4) properly identify the strengths and weaknesses of his own players, know when the challenge them, who to challenge, what to expect Player A to do and what to demand Player A do as well as what to never ask him to do, etc., and this is true whether you're a winner like the Tigers or a loser like us

5) know what kind of team you have & what kind of team you need to be, and try to do that

6) managers don't necessarily "win" ballgames but they can try to put their players in as many advantageous situations as possible to make the best use of their abilities as possible

7) be open-minded enough to recognize when and where to draw lines between old, crusty & ineffective baseball procedures (like managing for 8 innings as though the game matters & then turning your brain off in the 9th & "living and dying" with your closer) and things which are new but not necessarily better, i.e. overuse of the shift

 

That's a lot of stuff & probably a good amount of it is trial & error and you make mistakes and learn. Maybe I am unfairly harsh on Robin, admittedly I haven't followed a lot of the action this year so maybe he has gotten better. Of those things it would be hard to tell which ones he's very good at and where he's deficient because most of that stuff is hidden from view. I've mentioned before though that if game management is a major issue then maybe bringing in a new bench coach, or maybe even a second bench coach would be valuable. All a manger really needs to do re: game decisions is dictate them, but other people can more or less make them.

[The Ginger Kid]

Oh s***! Look!

 

Another thread where Ventura is thrashed for every little thing that goes wrong!

 

Hurry, call the whaaambulance before the toddlers fudge their Huggies, again.

 

I'm not saying Robin is a good or bad manager and I don't believe that can be determined until he is given a decent team to actually manage. What the f*** did Sox fans expect from the manager of a rebuilding baseball club? I admit, Robin makes some bad calls but good grief all managers do sometimes.

 

The Sox have far more pressing issues than Robin.

[GreenSox]

Sox have the same fielding% as Oakland and Pittsburgh, Cleveland has the worst....again, the managers of those teams have all won manager of the year the last 2 years.

 

I don't even know how UZR is calculated so I didn't quote it, but the Indians (Lead by the guy a lot of guys here wanted) and Pittsburgh have worse ratings. Sox -38.6 Pitt -41.0 Indians -67.3.

 

So Terry Francona, a guy a lot of people here wish was our manager, and a 2x WS Champ is leading a team that is worse defensively. Is Tito a bad manager or are managers pretty much irrelevant?

They can only deal with the talent given them. I don't think anyone's blaming Ventura for defense...except for the consistent lollygagging that was seen out of some players.

Managers can make proper lineup decisions, bullpen decisions, strategic decisions, and handle the clubhouse properly so that the team plays hard.

Manager is very important.

One person wants to compare Ventura to Madden; the next to a 2X WS champion manager.

 

For some reason people hold Ventura up as some White Sox icon above all critique.

Edited September 22, 2014 by GreenSox

[witesoxfan]

Admittedly I haven't been watching a ton of White Sux baseball this year, usually I'll just watch an inning or PA or maybe a couple innings at any given time and I'll have the radio on otherwise if at all. So I'm not sure what the deal is here but a couple weeks ago I looked up Q's season numbers and was suprised to see he looked like he'd miss or maybe just barely hit the 200IP plateau this year. I know he's had some bad starts like the Royals game where he gave up lik 45 runs in 2 innings, and I know he has his games where the pitch count goes way up early but I certainly hope Robin hasn't been pulling this guy around the 100 pitch mark routinely. Even if it comes with a slight increase in ERA and decrease in peripheral stats, in a rebuilding year the manager needs to do everything he can to get someone like Q to 220IP.

 

Again I haven't been watching enough to know when Robin has been pulling him. Maybe fangraphs has pitches per start or something? Robin famously didn't trust Quintana much at all his first season but he has shown some continued faith in Sale this year (which I like, even though Sale is faltered in some of those situations, because it's necessary for his development). So maybe Robin has given him a long leash & Q just hasn't been quite that good, but if not, and Robin has been cutting him short based on pitch count then that's a pretty big developmental error on his part IMO.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...p&year=2014

 

He's been around 100 pitches per game, but on the surface, it looks hard to criticize him being pulled in any of those spots.

[Dick Allen]

They can only deal with the talent given them. I don't think anyone's blaming Ventura for defense...except for the consistent lollygagging that was seen out of some players.

Managers can make proper lineup decisions, bullpen decisions, strategic decisions, and handle the clubhouse properly so that the team plays hard.

Manager is very important.

One person wants to compare Ventura to Madden; the next to a 2X WS champion manager.

 

For some reason people hold Ventura up as some White Sox icon above all critique.

No one compared Ventura to Maddon. YOU were the one that said if you lose 90 games in consecutive seasons the manager has fault. I just pointed out Maddon managed 2 really bad teams and according to your criteria, he should now be Joe, from State Farm.

 

Robin has been fine. The bullpen was terrible. You yourself said he had 2 starters. What is his record supposed to be?

 

The game thread is this was wrong that was wrong, all after the fact. Maddon pitched to Abreu with 1B open Saturday night and a runner on 2nd. He was retired, but if Robin does something like that, even if it works out, he is considered a fool and no genius like the guys who do the same thing. Francona pitched to Abreu 3 times in 2 games with 1B open and got burned 3 times. I could only imagine what would happen if Ventura did that.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Dick Allen