Let's Grade the Players, Coaches, Hahn for 2014

[witesoxfan]

I had much higher expectations for Semien. He had a pretty rough time with the bat, and never really got going on the defensive end. Sanchez provided plus defense to go along with the no bat.

 

I thought he looked way, way better in September and the numbers bear that out: .273/.333/.485/.818, 6.8% BB, 17.6% K, .359 wOBA, 129 wRC+. He genuinely looks like he could be a very good player wherever it is that he ends up.

 

FWIW, had Semien been eligible for the top 25 prospects in the system at mid-season, he would have ranked #3 for me.

 

[SCCWS]

I thought he looked way, way better in September and the numbers bear that out: .273/.333/.485/.818, 6.8% BB, 17.6% K, .359 wOBA, 129 wRC+. He genuinely looks like he could be a very good player wherever it is that he ends up.

 

FWIW, had Semien been eligible for the top 25 prospects in the system at mid-season, he would have ranked #3 for me.

 

So far he is a below average defensive player. Now in fairness he has bounced around among 3B-SS-2B. But in 60 games in the ML he had 14 errors. Putting that in perspective, Gillaspie had 12 in 127 games.

[witesoxfan]

So far he is a below average defensive player. Now in fairness he has bounced around among 3B-SS-2B. But in 60 games in the ML he had 14 errors. Putting that in perspective, Gillaspie had 12 in 127 games.

 

But Semien also gets to way more balls than Gillaspie too. He got a little wild with his throws, but I didn't have much problem with his glove anywhere he was.

[greg775]

Hahn a C? No, I'd give him a B/B+. In one offseason, he brought in the teams 2 best pitchers and had another excellent draft class. If anything, Hahn has really turned this franchise around on a dime. I thought this teams outlook was going to be abysmal for awhile when he took over....today, I can confidently say I believe they are a playoff contender next season. 2 or 3 smart offseason moves and they are right in it.

We lost 89 games. Team has pathetic bullpen and defense. It's going to be very hard to fix the defense. It really is. You guys are kind graders IMO. Yes he deserves eternal praise for Abreu and Eaton.

 

Off of the field:

 

Rick Hahn A

Robin Ventura B

Don Cooper B

Todd Steverson B

How could Hahn get an A?

[Rowand44]

We lost 89 games. Team has pathetic bullpen and defense. It's going to be very hard to fix the defense. It really is. You guys are kind graders IMO. Yes he deserves eternal praise for Abreu and Eaton.

 

 

How could Hahn get an A?

You have to remember that he didn't build the team from scratch so you can't just base his rating off of the Sox win-loss record. I'd personally probably give him a B because I feel like there were a few things he could have done a bit better and Davidson being god awful didn't help things but overall he had a pretty good year.

[witesoxfan]

How could Hahn get an A?

 

You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy.

 

Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A.

[witesoxfan]

You have to remember that he didn't build the team from scratch so you can't just base his rating off of the Sox win-loss record. I'd personally probably give him a B because I feel like there were a few things he could have done a bit better and Davidson being god awful didn't help things but overall he had a pretty good year.

 

That particular trade didn't work, but as has been discussed a zillion times, the philosophy behind the trade is valid. I fault Hahn less for that one.

[southsider2k5]

We lost 89 games. Team has pathetic bullpen and defense. It's going to be very hard to fix the defense. It really is. You guys are kind graders IMO. Yes he deserves eternal praise for Abreu and Eaton.

 

 

How could Hahn get an A?

 

I give you a D for your grading.

[southsider2k5]

You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy.

 

Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A.

 

[Meanwhile, inside greg's brain]

 

[Does fact add up with rant?]

 

[No]

 

[Fact ignored]

 

[Repeat original rant in slightly different form]

[Rowand44]

That particular trade didn't work, but as has been discussed a zillion times, the philosophy behind the trade is valid. I fault Hahn less for that one.

Oh I completely agree. I was extremely happy when that trade was made as that was the exact type of deal that I wanted him to make but Davidson was obviously awful this year so I can't rate the trade a success even though I love the thought process behind it.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Rowand44

[Dick Allen]

You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy.

 

Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A.

The bullpen is a mess, although Cleveland showed it can be rebuilt in a season, and there are a couple of pieces that could be decent. Webb was obviously not ready to be the closer, but if he could ever get some sort of command he could be pretty good. I think the book is still out on Petricka, and Putnam didn't pitch much the last month leading me to believe he probably was injured, so he could very well be a flash in the pan, certainly not someone you say "look at his ERA last season if he is awful next and say it was next to impossible to see coming." Paulino, Belisario and Downs were busts. Abreu was genius, Eaton was genius. Davidson, not so much. There was a lot to like, but there were enough total misses to take his "grade" down a peg. I am sure they were looking at winning more than 73 games.

[witesoxfan]

Oh I completely agree. I was extremely happy when that trade was made as that was the exact type of deal that I wanted him to make but Davidson was obviously awful this year so I can't rate the trade a success even though I love the through process behind it.

 

So much more than anything, the process is how a GM is graded. The Diamondbacks won a division title in Kevin Towers' first year as a GM. They were exact .500 the next 2 years and absolutely god awful horrendous this year because he essentially kept trading away high value players for a couple of good players and future value for current value. That does not breed sustainable success.

 

Obviously the results matter too, but there are times where a person who studies a very long time for every test still bombs one here or there, just as there are people who never study for tests who occasionally ace one.

[GreenSox]

 

Jose Abreu A

Adam Eaton A-

Alexei Ramirez B

Conor Gillaspie B

Tyler Flowers C+

Adam Dunn C

Avisail Garcia C

Marcus Semien C

Alejandro DeAza C

Adrian Nieto C

Gordon Beckham D

Dayan Viciedo D

Leury Garcia D-

Paul Konerko D-

 

 

Chris Sale A

Jose Quintana A-

Zach Putnam B

Jake Petricka C+

Javy Guerra C+

Hector Noesi C+

Scott Carroll C-

John Danks C-

Daniel Webb D

Matt Lindstrom F

Andre Rienzo F

Ronald Belisario F

 

 

[witesoxfan]

The bullpen is a mess, although Cleveland showed it can be rebuilt in a season, and there are a couple of pieces that could be decent. Webb was obviously not ready to be the closer, but if he could ever get some sort of command he could be pretty good. I think the book is still out on Petricka, and Putnam didn't pitch much the last month leading me to believe he probably was injured, so he could very well be a flash in the pan, certainly not someone you say "look at his ERA last season if he is awful next and say it was next to impossible to see coming." Paulino, Belisario and Downs were busts. Abreu was genius, Eaton was genius. Davidson, not so much. There was a lot to like, but there were enough total misses to take his "grade" down a peg. I am sure they were looking at winning more than 73 games.

 

And you've brought up good counter points. We'll agree to disagree, but I definitely don't think you're wrong. I just can't stand people who say "how could you do this?" when they've put no time reasoning anything out.

[Chicago White Sox]

I think Hahn deserves an A for Abreu alone. Think about how bad our offense would be right now without him. We'd basically be completely f***ed.

 

He filled our biggest hole in the entire organization (impact bat) and did so relatively cheaply. The rest of his moves are simply icing on the cake.

 

Now, obviously it wasn't a perfect offseason, but his hits far, far exceeded his misses and he's moved us in the right direction.

Edited September 29, 2014 by Chicago White Sox

[cabiness42]

I give you a D for your grading.

 

I give you an A- for your grading of greg's grading.

 

[Y2Jimmy0]

You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy.

 

Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A.

 

 

This is a great post from wite and similar to what I wanted to say in the thread as well. He signed Sale and Quintana to great below market deals, traded for Adam Eaton, enhanced the farm system, signed Rodon, and won the bidding for Jose Abreu. It has been a tremendous year for him. I am looking forward to another offseason of acquiring young, controllable pieces and the further addition of high end talent to the farm system. Since this time last year the Sox have locked up Sale and Q long-term, and acquired Eaton, Abreu, and Carlos Rodon. Not to mention the other moves that were made. Hahn has done a fantastic job.

[greg775]

The problems in general are, that RBI and pitching wins are not accurate assessments for players anymore.

 

They have no control of either of those stats.

I'm sorry but I think almost everybody in baseball would tell you RBIs mean something. I mean, my gosh, RBI is a worthless stat now? I firmly disagree on that. Do me a favor and go to Soxfest this year and bring a tape recorder and ask 10 or so Sox there about RBIs and post the audio. Please.

 

You can't look merely at the surface and say "the team was bad so Hahn was bad." That's shallow, naive, and wrong. He didn't bring in any bad long-term contracts. He got a guy who has a bit of talent in Nieto. He brought in enough minor league free agents and other young relievers that we can say "hey, maybe they have the makings of an OK bullpen heading into next year." He brought in a #4/5 starter for the cost of a waiver claim. He got something for Beckham, De Aza, and Dunn. He signed Jose Quintana to one of the best contracts I've ever seen in my life. He drafted a guy represented by Scott Boras and then actually got him signed, and said player is already one of the best prospects in all of minor league baseball. He continued expanding the Sox horizons in Latin America. He didn't trade away any valuable, long-term pieces from the minor league teams. Oh, and he also signed some Jose Abreu guy.

 

Frankly, I'd like to hear your reasoning for why he deserves anything other than an A.

 

First of all, C isn't that bad a grade. I truly think he deserves a C.

I don't frankly think the things you listed are THAT impressive. We agree on Q's contract. Nice that he got Rodon signed, but cmon. The draft is the draft. I do agree it's the GM's hyde so I agree he probably made a nice pick on Rodon. Again, most people on this board would have drafted the same guy. I can't say I would cause I could give a bleep about the draft and don't follow it.

Nieto? OK. Paulino is the negative. What a stiff. And Keppinger. My gosh.

He got something for Beckham, DeAza and Dunn? Big deal. Cmon that's in my C grade line of thinking. Anybody could have 'finally' moved those guys for something. At least I think so.

TheLatin America scouting? Agreed. Nice job. Abreu? Fantastic. Eaton too.

I disagree with some of you on the young bullpen guys. I think they are pretty expendable, all of em except 'maybe' Petricka and maybe Putnam. I'm obviously not a huge Putnam guy. Petricka looks OK. Hopefully he'll develop. All in all, I truly believe my Hahn grade of C is good.

I do not think the team will be any better next year, barring some great moves by Hahn. The bullpen? Ugh. The defense?? Very very very bad.

I wish him the best. For this year? A nice grade of C I think is applicable.

 

--Only way I feel I could up it to a B is because of how good Abreu and Eaton are. I think those two magical moves don't deserve a full grade improvement, though, because of the 89 losses and spectre of the same amount of losses 'possibly' next season.

Edited September 29, 2014 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

I'm sorry but I think almost everybody in baseball would tell you RBIs mean something. I mean, my gosh, RBI is a worthless stat now? I firmly disagree on that. Do me a favor and go to Soxfest this year and bring a tape recorder and ask 10 or so Sox there about RBIs and post the audio. Please.

 

 

 

First of all, C isn't that bad a grade. I truly think he deserves a C.

I don't frankly think the things you listed are THAT impressive. We agree on Q's contract. Nice that he got Rodon signed, but cmon. The draft is the draft. I do agree it's the GM's hyde so I agree he probably made a nice pick on Rodon. Again, most people on this board would have drafted the same guy. I can't say I would cause I could give a bleep about the draft and don't follow it.

Nieto? OK. Paulino is the negative. What a stiff. And Keppinger. My gosh.

He got something for Beckham, DeAza and Dunn? Big deal. Cmon that's in my C grade line of thinking. Anybody could have 'finally' moved those guys for something. At least I think so.

TheLatin America scouting? Agreed. Nice job. Abreu? Fantastic. Eaton too.

I disagree with some of you on the young bullpen guys. I think they are pretty expendable, all of em except 'maybe' Petricka and maybe Putnam. I'm obviously not a huge Putnam guy. Petricka looks OK. Hopefully he'll develop. All in all, I truly believe my Hahn grade of C is good.

I do not think the team will be any better next year, barring some great moves by Hahn. The bullpen? Ugh. The defense?? Very very very bad.

I wish him the best. For this year? A nice grade of C I think is applicable.

 

Big picture, Rick Hahn got a franchise player for the next six years, without giving up any other player or draft pick, and only $68 million. That alone, is worth the A. For perspectives sake, a MUCH older and beat up Miguel Cabrera just signed an extension for over 4 times the amount of promised money ($292 million).

 

Add to that Jose Quintana's contract, which on the open market we are talking about somewhere around a $150 to $200 million pitcher, to a deal that is guaranteed for only $26.5 million for the next five years. Quintana could get more than that PER YEAR on the open market, potentially. His two option years are worth $22 million, total.

 

Those two deals are like getting the 2 for $20 at Applebee's in Lawrence Kansas for $3.

 

If you think those two deals alone don't make an A, I want you find me another player who signed a contract like the two we are looking at from Abreu and Quintana, and tell me how that GM did better.

 

[MEANS]

Big picture, Rick Hahn got a franchise player for the next six years, without giving up any other player or draft pick, and only $68 million. That alone, is worth the A. For perspectives sake, a MUCH older and beat up Miguel Cabrera just signed an extension for over 4 times the amount of promised money ($292 million).

 

Add to that Jose Quintana's contract, which on the open market we are talking about somewhere around a $150 to $200 million pitcher, to a deal that is guaranteed for only $26.5 million for the next five years. Quintana could get more than that PER YEAR on the open market, potentially. His two option years are worth $22 million, total.

 

Those two deals are like getting the 2 for $20 at Applebee's in Lawrence Kansas for $3.

 

If you think those two deals alone don't make an A, I want you find me another player who signed a contract like the two we are looking at from Abreu and Quintana, and tell me how that GM did better.

 

 

as said before

 

 

[Meanwhile, inside greg's brain]

 

[Does fact add up with rant?]

 

[No]

 

[Fact ignored]

 

[Repeat original rant in slightly different form]

[greg775]

Big picture, Rick Hahn got a franchise player for the next six years, without giving up any other player or draft pick, and only $68 million. That alone, is worth the A. For perspectives sake, a MUCH older and beat up Miguel Cabrera just signed an extension for over 4 times the amount of promised money ($292 million).

 

Add to that Jose Quintana's contract, which on the open market we are talking about somewhere around a $150 to $200 million pitcher, to a deal that is guaranteed for only $26.5 million for the next five years. Quintana could get more than that PER YEAR on the open market, potentially. His two option years are worth $22 million, total.

 

Those two deals are like getting the 2 for $20 at Applebee's in Lawrence Kansas for $3.

 

If you think those two deals alone don't make an A, I want you find me another player who signed a contract like the two we are looking at from Abreu and Quintana, and tell me how that GM did better.

 

I see what you are saying and I said I might have moved him up to a B by just those two amazing moves, but I stand by my C right now. I won't downplay the greatness of Q and Abreu and Eaton. I don't want to say it's Hahn's fault but the Sox are a rotten 89 loss team with no real improvement on the horizon (barring a fantastic Hahn-led offseason). What's wrong with the grade of C? You keep your job with a C.

[southsider2k5]

I see what you are saying and I said I might have moved him up to a B by just those two amazing moves, but I stand by my C right now. I won't downplay the greatness of Q and Abreu and Eaton. I don't want to say it's Hahn's fault but the Sox are a rotten 89 loss team with no real improvement on the horizon (barring a fantastic Hahn-led offseason). What's wrong with the grade of C? You keep your job with a C.

 

Again, I want you to find me better contracts in MLB than what Abreu and Q have. If you can do that, then you have earned the right to give a lower grade.

[knightni]

RBI is a worthless stat now?

 

The statistical area "Runs Batted In" shows that you got a hit when a runner was on base, and that runner was fast enough to score from the base he was on.

 

It isn't a good indicator of power ability or overall hitting ability. The batter was just in the right place at the right time to bring a runner in.

 

 

 

[pettie4sox]

Noob question, but why would Sale and Q sign team friendly deals like that?

[greg775]

Again, I want you to find me better contracts in MLB than what Abreu and Q have. If you can do that, then you have earned the right to give a lower grade.

 

They are awesome. Let me ask you about his failures and the fact the team sucks and figures to blow again next year w/out major upgrades? Why is C a bad grade and an inaccurate grade.