Let's Grade the Players, Coaches, Hahn for 2014

[Balta1701]

Noob question, but why would Sale and Q sign team friendly deals like that?

If they get a deal like that done in their first or second season, it guarantees them $15 million+ career earnings no matter what happens to their arms. Sale could get hurt tomorrow and still walk away from this game an incredibly rich man.

 

The tradeoff for that is usually giving up a season or two of free agency later and having a few of the years that would otherwise be arbitration years turn into option years.

 

Had they not signed those deals, Sale's salary for example would probably look something like this:

 

2012: $500k

2013: $850k

2014: $900k

2015: $8 million

2016: $15 million

2017: $20 million

after 2017: free agent

 

He wouldn't hit the amount the White Sox guaranteed him until sometime in 2017. He also made $3.5 million in 2014 instead of $1 million and he is also able to borrow against guaranteed future earnings if he wants to do that to buy a house or something.

[cabiness42]

Noob question, but why would Sale and Q sign team friendly deals like that?

 

Sale signed for 5 years $32.5M guaranteed. He probably makes that in 4 years if he just goes year to year, but then he also loses all that money if he suffers a career-ending injury before then. So if he plays out the entire contract he leaves money on the table, but the tradeoff is that he has a guaranteed lifetime of financial security before reaching age 25.

[shysocks]

Noob question, but why would Sale and Q sign team friendly deals like that?

They both signed before they were "proven." That's my assessment, at least. Sale signed his just before the 2013 season, when he had one great year out of the bullpen and one in the rotation under his belt. Quintana had only thrown one full year as a major league starter when he signed his.

 

In hindsight they should both fire their agents, but they traded their upsides for immediate financial security.

[witesoxfan]

The draft is the draft. I do agree it's the GM's hyde so I agree he probably made a nice pick on Rodon. Again, most people on this board would have drafted the same guy. I can't say I would cause I could give a bleep about the draft and don't follow it.

 

How many of them would have gotten as many of the guys signed as the Sox did? I don't remember the last Boras client the Sox drafted in the first round that signed, if it's ever happened. It's still fairly impressive, even if I was 99.9999% sure it was going to happen.

 

Nieto? OK. Paulino is the negative. What a stiff. And Keppinger. My gosh.

 

Paulino was signed as flyer. He is a guy who's shown good stuff in the past and they took a chance. When it was obvious what he was, they cut the cord. Also, you are using Keppinger against him when that was a move made prior to 2013. They signed him almost 2 years ago. How is that a legitimate gripe against him for this season?

 

He got something for Beckham, DeAza and Dunn? Big deal. Cmon that's in my C grade line of thinking. Anybody could have 'finally' moved those guys for something. At least I think so.

 

When multiple people at multiple times wanted all 3 of those guys released, I think you're wrong.

 

I disagree with some of you on the young bullpen guys. I think they are pretty expendable, all of em except 'maybe' Petricka and maybe Putnam. I'm obviously not a huge Putnam guy. Petricka looks OK. Hopefully he'll develop. All in all, I truly believe my Hahn grade of C is good.

 

Guerra, Petricka, Putnam, Webb, Carroll, and Surkamp, to me, all have the look of possible bullpen arms. Not that all of them will make the team out of camp nor will all of them likely even be in the Sox organization, but there are guys in there that I think you can count on as back of the bullpen pitchers, which are still important. You go and get a good, "dependable" closer and maybe a lefty reliever and you can fill in the rest behind them.

 

[

I do not think the team will be any better next year, barring some great moves by Hahn. The bullpen? Ugh. The defense?? Very very very bad.

 

I do not think the defense was nearly as bad as you suggest and the bullpen can be turned around in one year. If you replace Dayan Viciedo with a good player in LF, the Sox are already looking like an improved team overall. But, if you don't think the team will improve at all next year, then you are assuming that Hahn will make no moves. Based on the history of this franchise, or frankly any franchise in the past 30 years, you can safely assume that moves will be made.

 

 

--Only way I feel I could up it to a B is because of how good Abreu and Eaton are. I think those two magical moves don't deserve a full grade improvement, though, because of the 89 losses and spectre of the same amount of losses 'possibly' next season.

 

Greg, in your opinion, what could he have done differently to improve this team beyond that 72-75 win threshold? Again, you are talking about a guy who improved this team by 10 wins when the cupboard was essentially bare and now, rather than bare and ugly, they have quite a few guys who look like they could be solid contributors at the MLB level and it's not beyond reasonable expectations to assume they can improve another 10 games next year, if not more.

 

I have no problem with a B, but a C assumes that he did an average job, and I think he went well beyond what would be assumed of an average GM in that situation.

[Balta1701]

I do not think the defense was nearly as bad as you suggest and the bullpen can be turned around in one year. If you replace Dayan Viciedo with a good player in LF, the Sox are already looking like an improved team overall. But, if you don't think the team will improve at all next year, then you are assuming that Hahn will make no moves. Based on the history of this franchise, or frankly any franchise in the past 30 years, you can safely assume that moves will be made.

By the way, if we're talking Hahn, one of his biggest negatives to his score was keeping Viciedo on this roster. Given what we saw from him this year, it was a mistake not to take the best offer we had, whatever hill of beans it was, and cut the cord with him.

[southsider2k5]

They are awesome. Let me ask you about his failures and the fact the team sucks and figures to blow again next year w/out major upgrades? Why is C a bad grade and an inaccurate grade.

 

How is signing to long term franchise anchors average, which is what a C means. Again, who else did that this off season?

 

The Tigers paid $292 million for Miguel Cabrera. The White Sox have Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, AND Jose Abreu signed for less... COMBINED.

 

If it is such an average thing to have done as a GM, who else has done it?

[witesoxfan]

By the way, if we're talking Hahn, one of his biggest negatives to his score was keeping Viciedo on this roster. Given what we saw from him this year, it was a mistake not to take the best offer we had, whatever hill of beans it was, and cut the cord with him.

 

That's a legitimate gripe too, but I think they wanted to see if they could turn him around. Some players need even more time to figure it out, and they'd invested a lot in him. At this point, he's by far the weakest link on the roster. I'd say there's about a 1% chance he's back at this point.

[witesoxfan]

How is signing to long term franchise anchors average, which is what a C means. Again, who else did that this off season?

 

The Tigers paid $292 million for Miguel Cabrera. The White Sox have Chris Sale, Jose Quintana, AND Jose Abreu signed for less than half of that... COMBINED.

 

If it is such an average thing to have done as a GM, who else has done it?

 

ftfy

[Balta1701]

That's a legitimate gripe too, but I think they wanted to see if they could turn him around. Some players need even more time to figure it out, and they'd invested a lot in him. At this point, he's by far the weakest link on the roster. I'd say there's about a 1% chance he's back at this point.

I get that. My statement last offseason was that it was all on Hahn. I wouldn't have been mad if they'd just let him go, but the only reason that they should continue to give him playing time is if they thought he could start taking solid steps forward. Instead, we saw a month long hot streak and a dive into continued mediocrity with seemingly the same clown show from him that we got in previous years. That was exactly what you didn't want to get from him, if he was going to keep that up it should have been somewhere else for whatever (even nil) return we could have gotten, that was an important decision that the FO missed.

[witesoxfan]

I get that. My statement last offseason was that it was all on Hahn. I wouldn't have been mad if they'd just let him go, but the only reason that they should continue to give him playing time is if they thought he could start taking solid steps forward. Instead, we saw a month long hot streak and a dive into continued mediocrity with seemingly the same clown show from him that we got in previous years. That was exactly what you didn't want to get from him, if he was going to keep that up it should have been somewhere else for whatever (even nil) return we could have gotten, that was an important decision that the FO missed.

 

I would guess that their reasoning for not doing so is that they believe they will be able to get more in return for him in the offseason where more teams will be willing to take on chances like that as opposed to just seeing their own guys and having a decision to make.

 

If you want to look at reclamation projects and trading a guy for a guy like that, Viciedo for Dominic Brown makes some sense.

[shysocks]

Puig, Sale, Goldschmidt, Jose Fernandez and I'd even throw McCucthen in the conversation despite a pretty high AAV.

Isn't Fernandez still pre-arb? The rest are fantastic deals. Distinction: the Sox have three of these guys.

[southsider2k5]

Puig, Sale, Goldschmidt, Jose Fernandez and I'd even throw McCucthen in the conversation despite a pretty high AAV.

 

My point exactly.

 

Three of the best contracts in baseball are on the White Sox. Two of them were signed in the last year. This is SO important to a franchise, when you contrast it with someone like Detroit who has entered contract hell, and have starting giving away guys like Doug Fister for garbage to make room for their other bad deals.

[Balta1701]

I would guess that their reasoning for not doing so is that they believe they will be able to get more in return for him in the offseason where more teams will be willing to take on chances like that as opposed to just seeing their own guys and having a decision to make.

 

If you want to look at reclamation projects and trading a guy for a guy like that, Viciedo for Dominic Brown makes some sense.

The real key was that 2014 was going to be a lost season anyway. If we dumped Viciedo for Dom Brown right now, would you have confidence that move makes us a playoff team next year?

 

Since 2014 was a wasted season, we could take on someone else's chaff, give them the full season of at bats, and then decide whether they showed any improvement on our roster. Instead, we are up a creek. If we want to compete next year, we need to fill a corner OF spot with a competent, non-terrible player, but we're not very likely to get that by trading Viciedo, and even if we did, we're not going to know about that until sometime during the season, when it's way too late to decide on FAs.

 

We can't stick Domonic Brown out in LF, have him put up a low .600's OPS, and compete for the AL central even if we blow a good amount of money on VMart, a pitcher, and a bullpen. Planning to play Brown or any other reclamation project full time in the big leagues next year is calling 2015 a busted season as well. I know Brown wouldn't have been available last year, but last year was the year to make that kind of move with Viciedo if we thought he was likely to continue being the same player.

[witesoxfan]

The real key was that 2014 was going to be a lost season anyway. If we dumped Viciedo for Dom Brown right now, would you have confidence that move makes us a playoff team next year?

 

Since 2014 was a wasted season, we could take on someone else's chaff, give them the full season of at bats, and then decide whether they showed any improvement on our roster. Instead, we are up a creek. If we want to compete next year, we need to fill a corner OF spot with a competent, non-terrible player, but we're not very likely to get that by trading Viciedo, and even if we did, we're not going to know about that until sometime during the season, when it's way too late to decide on FAs.

 

We can't stick Domonic Brown out in LF, have him put up a low .600's OPS, and compete for the AL central even if we blow a good amount of money on VMart, a pitcher, and a bullpen. Planning to play Brown or any other reclamation project full time in the big leagues next year is calling 2015 a busted season as well. I know Brown wouldn't have been available last year, but last year was the year to make that kind of move with Viciedo if we thought he was likely to continue being the same player.

 

I honestly have no idea if the Sox will compete right now. I also don't know that I want Dominic Brown playing LF. It's just that sometimes, you have to take risks on guys and hope you can find something in their swing and turn them around. If not, the cost is still minimal overall.

 

What we have seen is that Brown has a much lower floor than Viciedo but I think his ceiling is also much higher too. In this situation, you can give him a trial run for a bit and if you don't like it at any point, you can cut him or flip him to someone who is willing to give him another chance.

 

I have my ideas as to what I think the Sox could do, and people would rip them to shreds just as people would endorse them, and other people think they know what the Sox to do while we rip those to shreds, but ultimately it's up to Hahn, other teams, and other players.

[Balta1701]

What we have seen is that Brown has a much lower floor than Viciedo but I think his ceiling is also much higher too. In this situation, you can give him a trial run for a bit and if you don't like it at any point, you can cut him or flip him to someone who is willing to give him another chance.

The problem for me is that this is incompatible with putting a roster out there next year that is likely to compete for a playoff spot. It's a perfect thing for a rebuilding team to do, but you don't plan on that as an option while simultaneously spending $40 mil/year on free agents.

 

If Andy Wilkins is our DH to start next season and Carroll is holding down a rotation spot for Rodon, sure throw whoever out there that you want because what's the harm if he does the same thing he did this season? We cut whatever player that is loose and give Sierra and any other waiver wire finds more at bats. But that's not a competitive roster, that's a plan to play for 2016.

 

Hence why I keep thinking it's a poor idea to spend money on the FA's on the 2016 market unless a solid trade happens first.

[ron883]

Did anybody expect Greg's grading system to not be flawed?

[greg775]

Greg, in your opinion, what could he have done differently to improve this team beyond that 72-75 win threshold? Again, you are talking about a guy who improved this team by 10 wins when the cupboard was essentially bare and now, rather than bare and ugly, they have quite a few guys who look like they could be solid contributors at the MLB level and it's not beyond reasonable expectations to assume they can improve another 10 games next year, if not more.

 

I have no problem with a B, but a C assumes that he did an average job, and I think he went well beyond what would be assumed of an average GM in that situation.

 

First of all I hope what you said about the defense and bullpen is correct. I was thinking 3B would remain a black hole and LF with Dayan and even RF with Avi and 1B with Abreu. I sensed some lingering problems there that can't be fixed. And if Lexi is traded depending on the replacement, wow, the defense I thought could be so bad it'll make our heads spin.

 

I also hope you are right that the bullpen can be fixed with minimal problems. I obviously disagree. Hope you are right.

 

Well, in answer to your question, the team did improve by 10, but 99 to 89 does not thrill me. It is progress, though. I think my angry bullpen posts show that indeed I blamed Hahn heavily for that disaster. The Reed trade ...

Now the problem here is everybody is on me for the grade of C which is not like I gave him a D. I just find it hard to give a guy a B who made the Davidson deal (no matter how it looked at the time) and the Paulino deal and concocted a team with this bad of a defense. I truly feel my last two sentences make a grade of C a legitimate one (to go with ALL Hahn's great successes).

I guess I am not completely against improving it to a B (as I am willing to compromise unlike Congress) but it sort of pains me to do so.

[southsider2k5]

First of all I hope what you said about the defense and bullpen is correct. I was thinking 3B would remain a black hole and LF with Dayan and even RF with Avi and 1B with Abreu. I sensed some lingering problems there that can't be fixed. And if Lexi is traded depending on the replacement, wow, the defense I thought could be so bad it'll make our heads spin.

 

I also hope you are right that the bullpen can be fixed with minimal problems. I obviously disagree. Hope you are right.

 

Well, in answer to your question, the team did improve by 10, but 99 to 89 does not thrill me. It is progress, though. I think my angry bullpen posts show that indeed I blamed Hahn heavily for that disaster. The Reed trade ...

Now the problem here is everybody is on me for the grade of C which is not like I gave him a D. I just find it hard to give a guy a B who made the Davidson deal (no matter how it looked at the time) and the Paulino deal and concocted a team with this bad of a defense. I truly feel my last two sentences make a grade of C a legitimate one (to go with ALL Hahn's great successes).

I guess I am not completely against improving it to a B (as I am willing to compromise unlike Congress) but it sort of pains me to do so.

 

 

If the Paulino deal is a big deal, then the Noesi waiver deal cancels that out, because that is who replaced him, FOR FREE, in the rotation. You also have to give credit for the waiver deals to bring Guerra and Sierra in. That is three people on the 25 man roster brought in for nothing, on top of two of the best contracts in baseball.

 

Again, who else did better? Instead of talking, I want you to actually show me a GM who had a better year. Prove it.

[iamshack]

By the way, if we're talking Hahn, one of his biggest negatives to his score was keeping Viciedo on this roster. Given what we saw from him this year, it was a mistake not to take the best offer we had, whatever hill of beans it was, and cut the cord with him.

This is on KW. By the time Hahn got him, and especially after Avisail went down, there was more value in keeping him than moving him for nothing.

[kitekrazy]

Buddy Bell D-

 

Sox are fundamentally flawed. That drivels down to the instructors and scouts in this organization. Base running is beyond bad. As Steve Stone said, "get better base runners".

[chitownsportsfan]

Hahn gets an A, no doubt. He spent very little money and essentially brought in two, possibly three cornerstone players in Eaton, Jose and Garcia.

 

Yea you can say he could have gotten more for Rios or quibble with the Paulino money but in the grand scheme of things he took one of the worst, most unwatchable, talent less clubs in '13 and turned them into a highly watchable, talented but flawed, '14 club.

 

The pieces are now in place for the next run of contention. There is a lot more work to be done, but from the POV of where the Sox were at entering last offseason, he did a helluva job filling holes.

[caulfield12]

It's still back to that defensive question.

 

Even if Garcia puts up an 800 OPS (and I'm expecting 725-750 just to be happily surprised), then you've got four bad or below average fielders:

 

Gillaspie, Garcia, 2B (if it's Semien, maybe average if it's Sanchez) and 1B

 

Average=Flowers (maybe you can argue a tick above average)

 

Above average=Ramirez and Eaton

 

 

If you trade Ramirez, that leaves you with only Eaton. And the only quick fix is moving Avisail Garcia to DH, which isn't going to happen, or Viciedo to DH, which is UNLIKELY to happen.

 

Micah Johnson's not going to improve the 2013-14 defensive numbers, either.

 

 

I just don't see any conceivable way the 2015 team is going to have something approaching even an average defense unless they find a "defense first" outfielder (like a Parra, Michael Saunders or Leonys Martin...or think Lagares, Bourjos or maybe Endy Chavez or F.Gutierrez 2-3 seasons ago) who will probably struggle to be average offensively. That leaves you gambling on one of those guys like Rasmus who MIGHT put it together on both sides of just as easily turn into the White Sox version of JD Drew.

 

With bad baserunning (even if team speed improves in LF and at 2B) and what will PROBABLY be an average or below-average pen without a minor miracle, there's just no path to competing unless they exchange players and eras with the 1999-2001 Twins, when they were on the cusp of becoming the best team in the division.

 

 

I would give Hahn a B/B+. If Eaton was 100% healthy the entire season and that wasn't an ongoing concern, I might be willing to push it up to A-. I think there's also a decent amount of uncertainty about how good Avisail Garcia becomes...if he's not a cornerstone or building block, that puts us 3 bats out of contention, not just 2.

 

The Downs/Cleto/Paulino/Boggs/Belisario moves (albeit low risk) all blew up, especially Downs, who was this year's Keppinger. Paulino was a mess and quietly went away. Erik Johnson completely self-destructed. Then you have the Davidson debacle. I'll give him Putnam, Noesi and Guerra, although SOME of those moves had to work by the process of elimination. The jury's still out on Sierra.

 

He also got decent (under the circumstances) returns for DeAza and especially Dunn.

Edited September 30, 2014 by caulfield12

[greg775]

If the Paulino deal is a big deal, then the Noesi waiver deal cancels that out, because that is who replaced him, FOR FREE, in the rotation. You also have to give credit for the waiver deals to bring Guerra and Sierra in. That is three people on the 25 man roster brought in for nothing, on top of two of the best contracts in baseball.

 

Again, who else did better? Instead of talking, I want you to actually show me a GM who had a better year. Prove it.

With all due respect, these are White Sox grades. I'm not being a smart aleck but what does other GMs have to do with my grade for Hahn? Plus, Sierra is just another guy and I know some people on this board this Guerra is great, but again, I am not one of them. I 'm not trying to be difficult.

I am giving Hahn great credit for Abreu and Eaton and I guess, Noesi, but I don't see any reason to give him better than a C (or in that range) considering his team lost 89 games and blew chunks again. Yes there were way more exciting moments than 2013, but 89 losses and no real reason to think the team can do any better than that.

I have no idea what GM had a better year, if any. I may be a pessimistic fan, but I happen to think 89 losses blows. I'm hoping this is part of the process and he adds great pieces to get us to be able to go .500 next year.

 

Hahn gets an A, no doubt. He spent very little money and essentially brought in two, possibly three cornerstone players in Eaton, Jose and Garcia.

 

 

I don't mean to be difficult. I just don't necessarily think the Sox are ready to contend.

 

Yea you can say he could have gotten more for Rios or quibble with the Paulino money but in the grand scheme of things he took one of the worst, most unwatchable, talent less clubs in '13 and turned them into a highly watchable, talented but flawed, '14 club.

 

The pieces are now in place for the next run of contention. There is a lot more work to be done, but from the POV of where the Sox were at entering last offseason, he did a helluva job filling holes.

 

How is an 89 loss team worthy of an A? Are we giving participation trophy grades? MLB is a man's game. An A is pretty generous.

Edited September 30, 2014 by greg775

[southsider2k5]

With all due respect, these are White Sox grades. I'm not being a smart aleck but what does other GMs have to do with my grade for Hahn? Plus, Sierra is just another guy and I know some people on this board this Guerra is great, but again, I am not one of them. I 'm not trying to be difficult.

I am giving Hahn great credit for Abreu and Eaton and I guess, Noesi, but I don't see any reason to give him better than a C (or in that range) considering his team lost 89 games and blew chunks again. Yes there were way more exciting moments than 2013, but 89 losses and no real reason to think the team can do any better than that.

I have no idea what GM had a better year, if any. I may be a pessimistic fan, but I happen to think 89 losses blows. I'm hoping this is part of the process and he adds great pieces to get us to be able to go .500 next year.

 

 

 

How is an 89 loss team worthy of an A? Are we giving participation trophy grades? MLB is a man's game. An A is pretty generous.

 

Um, how do you grade anyone, except against his peers?

[greg775]

Um, how do you grade anyone, except against his peers?

I wish more people would post their grades, then mine wouldn't be so scrutinized. I never thought this thread would turn into this.

 

You make a compelling statement/sentence, but I grade them based on the factors I've listed in my many posts: acquisitions, record of the team. I just am stupified that people think he's way better than a C, which is an average grade. Believe me, if the Sox ever contend again til the final week of the season I WILL give Mr. Hahn credit.

Edited September 30, 2014 by greg775