Greg Walker

[Dick Allen]

Um that's the whole point. Greg Walker has failed absolutely miserably with his biggest projects throughout his career here. He's never had a guy outperform expectations like ever. Meanwhile we spend next to nothing on the pitching staff and Cooper succeeds often with waiver wire scrubs and such and has our Gordon Beckham of pitching actually performing like the all world talent he's supposed to be.

You expected the year Dye put up in 2006? You expected Quentin to be MVP like in 2008?

 

If Gordon Beckham was a failure, then he is also Jeff Manto's and Todd Steverson's failure. In fact, Steverson said when he got the job, Beckham was his biggest project. So the Sox should probably fire him right now.

 

If pitchers fail, there is always an excuse. Why is it Walker's fault Beckham sucked, but not Cooper's fault Erik Johnson sucks? Why isn't it the pitching coach's fault Javy Vazquez sucked, and then puts up a big year after he is traded? The same with Liriano.

 

Why isn't it the pitching coach's fault when the bullpen is horrible when it was Walker's fault the offense was horrible with Andy Gonzalez and Corky Miller getting ABs?

 

Cooper is fine as a pitching coach. I really have never said otherwise, except for perhaps some sarcasm to get under Caulfield's skin because Don is his hero.

 

I just wish some would look at it rationally. Swapping out Walker with Manto didn't help the White Sox offense. Swapping out Manto for Steverson didn't help the White Sox offense. Signing Abreu, trading for Eaton...those are the things that make the offense better.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Paul Konerko, Jim Thome, Jermaine Dye, Joe Crede, Alex Rios...there are a ton of players that would say that Walker helped them turn their careers around, Joe Crede especially. Prior to 2006, he was a .250 hitter who hit 20 home runs and would always pop out to 2B from pulling off the ball. He worked his ass off that offseason with Walker in staying on the ball better and he had an absolutely phenomenal year until the back injury that ruined his career creeped in.

Yeah it pretty much comes down to Joe Crede being the only guy in 9 years that Greg Walker can show off and a little Jermaine Dye. Thome was literally a hall of famer. Paul Konerko was a beast before Walker got here and oddly enough had his worst full season ever in Walker's first year here. No idea why Alex Rios is even considered. Hes like the posterboy for Walker's suckage. He was way better before Walker got to him and mostly better after too. He was pretty much dismal under Walker. Dye was an all star caliber player before he came here but managed to improve with age. I have no problem crediting Walker here.

 

 

Now compare that to Don Cooper who has put guys signed to minor league contracts into Cy Young conversations.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Buehrle>Wood

[Chisoxfn]

Yeah it pretty much comes down to Joe Crede being the only guy in 9 years that Greg Walker can show off and a little Jermaine Dye. Thome was literally a hall of famer. Paul Konerko was a beast before Walker got here and oddly enough had his worst full season ever in Walker's first year here. No idea why Alex Rios is even considered. Hes like the posterboy for Walker's suckage. He was way better before Walker got to him and mostly better after too. He was pretty much dismal under Walker. Dye was an all star caliber player before he came here but managed to improve with age. I have no problem crediting Walker here.

 

 

Now compare that to Don Cooper who has put guys signed to minor league contracts into Cy Young conversations.

I don't think you can put Paul Konerko and Walker and not discuss the fact that Konerko absolutely loved working with Walker. Konerko got old and went down hill but Konerko gave a ton of credit to Walker and always went out of his way to rave about him. I agree with DA but I'll also say this is a moot point and a dead argument from years ago. Since I did something to bring up yesterday's dead debate with Dunn I'm going to shut up now and hope we can all focus our attentions to what actually went wrong in 14, what went right and can be built on, and how we move to contending in 14 without being short sighted and still moving towards a long term goal of having a long-term window of success!!!

[witesoxfan]

Yeah it pretty much comes down to Joe Crede being the only guy in 9 years that Greg Walker can show off and a little Jermaine Dye. Thome was literally a hall of famer. Paul Konerko was a beast before Walker got here and oddly enough had his worst full season ever in Walker's first year here. No idea why Alex Rios is even considered. Hes like the posterboy for Walker's suckage. He was way better before Walker got to him and mostly better after too. He was pretty much dismal under Walker. Dye was an all star caliber player before he came here but managed to improve with age. I have no problem crediting Walker here.

 

 

Now compare that to Don Cooper who has put guys signed to minor league contracts into Cy Young conversations.

 

Ignoring everything else, who are the guys (plural) that the Sox signed to minor league contracts and turned them into Cy Young pitchers? I can think of Loaiza, and that was one, isolated incident who never had another season like that again.

 

My problem with giving Cooper a pass and chastizing all of the hitting coaches is that I don't see much of a difference. Who are the pitchers that Cooper has helped recuperate? Please note that, based on your criteria (ie Konerko), I can exclude anyone who has had success before or after Cooper too.

 

I really like Cooper, I felt that Walker should have been let go when he was, I had no problem with Manto being let go, and I still really like Steverson, but what are we basing that off?

[Dick Allen]

Yeah it pretty much comes down to Joe Crede being the only guy in 9 years that Greg Walker can show off and a little Jermaine Dye. Thome was literally a hall of famer. Paul Konerko was a beast before Walker got here and oddly enough had his worst full season ever in Walker's first year here. No idea why Alex Rios is even considered. Hes like the posterboy for Walker's suckage. He was way better before Walker got to him and mostly better after too. He was pretty much dismal under Walker. Dye was an all star caliber player before he came here but managed to improve with age. I have no problem crediting Walker here.

 

 

Now compare that to Don Cooper who has put guys signed to minor league contracts into Cy Young conversations.

Your facts are a little wrong. Walker took over midseason 2003, when Paulie turned it around. Alex Rios was acquired on waivers too. You are missing Quentin. Paulie's comeback in 2009-2011 when most thought he was done.

 

You ignore the obvious. The team loved his work. They were switching hitting coaches like crazy before he got the job, and have already made a change since he was gone. The beat writers, who actually see what is going on praised him. The players praised him. He got the Braves job right away. You just sometimes have to see what he had to work with. When the team ranks near the bottom, much like when Chris Sale goes 12-13, the numbers don't tell the entire story. The only people who say he sucked are fans. The insiders praised him when he was taking heat when he was here which is common, and didn't let up when he was gone, which, if he really was a problem, is uncommon. I still haven't seen 1 player rip him. Considering if Walker ruined as many guys as some think, he certainly has cost them many, many millions of dollars, at least one would have said something sometime.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

Your facts are a little wrong. Walker took over midseason 2003, when Paulie turned it around. Alex Rios was acquired on waivers too. You are missing Quentin. Paulie's comeback in 2009-2011 when most thought he was done.

 

You ignore the obvious. The team loved his work. They were switching hitting coaches like crazy before he got the job, and have already made a change since he was gone. The beat writers, who actually see what is going on praised him. The players praised him. He got the Braves job right away. You just sometimes have to see what he had to work with. When the team ranks near the bottom, much like when Chris Sale goes 12-13, the numbers don't tell the entire story. The only people who say he sucked are fans.

Our front office has done an absolutely atrocious job of finding new hitters since the younger core days of the early to mid 2000's. We have done nothing but add bad hitters, by and large, over the past 5 or 6 years. This offseason was the exception where we added Eaton and Abreu.

[witesoxfan]

Our front office has done an absolutely atrocious job of finding new hitters since the younger core days of the early to mid 2000's. We have done nothing but add bad hitters, by and large, over the past 5 or 6 years. This offseason was the exception where we added Eaton and Abreu.

 

Gillaspie has been a nice find too, even with the struggles against LHP.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Ignoring everything else, who are the guys (plural) that the Sox signed to minor league contracts and turned them into Cy Young pitchers? I can think of Loaiza, and that was one, isolated incident who never had another season like that again.

 

My problem with giving Cooper a pass and chastizing all of the hitting coaches is that I don't see much of a difference. Who are the pitchers that Cooper has helped recuperate? Please note that, based on your criteria (ie Konerko), I can exclude anyone who has had success before or after Cooper too.

 

I really like Cooper, I felt that Walker should have been let go when he was, I had no problem with Manto being let go, and I still really like Steverson, but what are we basing that off?

Esteban Loaiza

Damaso Marte

Neil Cotts

Helped Save Tom Gordon's career

Cliff Politte

Jose Contreras

Bobby Jenks

Dustin Hermanson

Matt Thornton

Gavin Floyd

DJ Carrasco

Chris Sale

Jose Quintana

Jesse Crain

Dylan f***ing Axelrod listing him just brcause

Hector Santiago

Phil Humber

Nate Jones

Scott Carroll, Axelrod territory

Hector Noesi

 

 

 

I'm sure there's more. All these guys pretty much killed their expectations here or performed at an extremely high level. And I'm sure I've missed quite a bit. I'm sure you can also find reasons not to list them. Regardless his work with Quintana, Contreras, and Thornton alone outweighs anything Walking has done. The rest is a bonus.

 

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Our front office has done an absolutely atrocious job of finding new hitters since the younger core days of the early to mid 2000's. We have done nothing but add bad hitters, by and large, over the past 5 or 6 years. This offseason was the exception where we added Eaton and Abreu.

And haven't developed any hitters. It seems everyone they ever call up winds up with a 20 to 1 k to walk ratio their first stint.

 

As much as the major league coaching staff gets blamed for players' gaffes, it has amazed me that when the Sox call someone up, they seem to struggle with almost all aspects. Hitting, fielding, dumb baserunning. I know there are nerves in play, but these guys have been playing baseball their entire lives and should have had plenty of instruction. They should have some idea of what they are doing on the field.

[ptatc]

Ignoring everything else, who are the guys (plural) that the Sox signed to minor league contracts and turned them into Cy Young pitchers? I can think of Loaiza, and that was one, isolated incident who never had another season like that again.

 

My problem with giving Cooper a pass and chastizing all of the hitting coaches is that I don't see much of a difference. Who are the pitchers that Cooper has helped recuperate? Please note that, based on your criteria (ie Konerko), I can exclude anyone who has had success before or after Cooper too.

 

I really like Cooper, I felt that Walker should have been let go when he was, I had no problem with Manto being let go, and I still really like Steverson, but what are we basing that off?

Don't forget Thornton who was a scrap heap player the Sox got for Joe Borchard. Cooper convinced the GM to get him saying he saw something he could fix. This is where the whole Coop can fix 'em started.

 

Garland and Contreras would probably be there as well considering the Cubs gave up on Garland and traded him for a reliever and Contreras was going bad in NY.

[Chisoxfn]

Gillaspie has been a nice find too, even with the struggles against LHP.

I won't put Gillespie in the same sentence as Abreu and Eaton but at least he can handle a bat against righties, problem is he hits for limited power, doesn't have a high obp (in a larger sample size) and plays poor defense. I do like his general swing and the fact that he tends to hit a lot of line drives, etc, but if he can't improve defensively, his value is much more limited, although at his cost, still productive.

[Chisoxfn]

And haven't developed any hitters. It seems everyone they ever call up winds up with a 20 to 1 k to walk ratio their first stint.

 

As much as the major league coaching staff gets blamed for players' gaffes, it has amazed me that when the Sox call someone up, they seem to struggle with almost all aspects. Hitting, fielding, dumb baserunning. I know there are nerves in play, but these guys have been playing baseball their entire lives and should have had plenty of instruction. They should have some idea of what they are doing on the field.

Well I think a lot of it, is outside of Beckham, they haven't exactly called up guys that have been great prospects. Semien would be the only other guy who is a good prospect but we aren't talking about some elite prospect here. So I don't think we should be surprised. We haven't brought in good hitters and have done little to develop them within our organization.

[southsider2k5]

Esteban Loaiza

Damaso Marte

Neil Cotts

Helped Save Tom Gordon's career

Cliff Politte

Jose Contreras

Bobby Jenks

Dustin Hermanson

Matt Thornton

Gavin Floyd

DJ Carrasco

Chris Sale

Jose Quintana

Jesse Crain

Dylan f***ing Axelrod listing him just brcause

Hector Santiago

Phil Humber

Nate Jones

Scott Carroll, Axelrod territory

Hector Noesi

 

 

 

I'm sure there's more. All these guys pretty much killed their expectations here or performed at an extremely high level. And I'm sure I've missed quite a bit. I'm sure you can also find reasons not to list them. Regardless his work with Quintana, Contreras, and Thornton alone outweighs anything Walking has done. The rest is a bonus.

 

 

That list is exactly why Don Cooper gets slack. There are some amazing stories in there.

[Jake]

Ideally, as a hitting coach you'll have more inexplicable successes than inexplicable failures. Most importantly, you should have as few proven MLB players fall off the map as possible.

[Chisoxfn]

Ideally, as a hitting coach you'll have more inexplicable successes than inexplicable failures. Most importantly, you should have as few proven MLB players fall off the map as possible.

Pitching coaches have a much greater ability to impact players then hitting coaches though. It is much easier for a pitcher to make adjustments, be taught tweaks to a pitch, etc, then it is to do anything major to a players swing.

[Balta1701]

Pitching coaches have a much greater ability to impact players then hitting coaches though. It is much easier for a pitcher to make adjustments, be taught tweaks to a pitch, etc, then it is to do anything major to a players swing.

Is this really the case though? Maybe in the modern world it is but it used to be very, very common for hitters to change their swing and approach and technique and positioning depending on how they were feeling, recent results, even the situation they're in/count.

[Chisoxfn]

Is this really the case though? Maybe in the modern world it is but it used to be very, very common for hitters to change their swing and approach and technique and positioning depending on how they were feeling, recent results, even the situation they're in/count.

From the conversations I've had with various coaches and players, which are albeit limited to a handful which talked at all about adjustments, the understanding I garnered was it was easier for a pitcher to make adjustments, learn more/new pitches, change approach, then it is for a hitter. You can teach a pitcher a new way of throwing something and help them. You can't teach them velocity but you can teach them nuances / tricks / ways to throw pitches better. You really can't teach a hitter a new swing. It is extremely difficult, given that we are talking about actually changing how you swing when its been ingrained over significant years. With pitching, you have difficulties teaching guys to repeat deliveries, but a motion is more simple then swing mechanics and a lot of things can be adjusted by grip, ball spin, etc.

 

I also think if you asked pitchers and hitters and guys that even played college / high school baseball, what was easier to fix, a swing or pitching mechanics, most would tell you pitching mechanics and aspects like that are easier to correct. Maybe that is just my own personal view as I always felt it was easier to make changes to my grip, follow through, use of lower body, etc, then it ever was to make any sort of major change to my swing. On a sidenote, I'm referring to higher levels of baseball.

 

Also, just think through results. How often do you see a guy come up to the majors and have a significantly different swing or different results then he has had in the past. How often do you see him have significant increases in walks, decreases in strikeouts, etc, which didn't correlate to minor league projections. Now go to pitching, I can think of far more examples of where a guy came up, scratched one pitch, cleaned up his mechanics to make them more repeatable, developed new pitches, and / or better learned how to pitch.

[southsider2k5]

No to nitpick because I am acutally curios, is there a story for the Tom Gordon inclusion? That guy was rock solid before the Sox got him and after...He had one of the nastiest curveballs in the game when the Sox had him.

 

IIRC, he had a ton of injury issues before coming to the Sox. After that he got back on track for a number of years.

[Rowand44]

The thing with Walker is I was never one to blame him for the Sox hitting woes in his tenure but when it happens year after year you do have to make a change. That's how I felt than and I still feel that way now.

[Dick Allen]

IIRC, he had a ton of injury issues before coming to the Sox. After that he got back on track for a number of years.

Again, injuries, Cooper fixed him. Earlier injuries to hitters, Walker did nothing. They were great before.

[Buehrle>Wood]

Haha love how you nitpicked one guy

[witesoxfan]

There are actually a lot of guys I have issues with on that list. How many of those guys were one year wonders? How many were successful before getting with Cooper? Why can't Cooper fix guys and keep them fixed? How many of those guys were going to be good no matter who was pitching coach? How many of them are just not very good to begin with? It's pretty subjective in that manner.

 

Like I said, I'm not trying to say Cooper is a bad pitching coach. I like him and like what he does, but so much of the coaching game is having good players.

[shysocks]

I agree with the premise that coaches don't mean as much as fans like to think. However, if you wanted to try and come up with a list of hitters that have maximized their talent for the Sox in the last 12 years that equals the length of the same list of pitchers - that would be an impossible exercise.

 

While it is ultimately up to the players to get the job done on the field, Cooper gets the benefit of the doubt from fans for the simple fact that that list is staggering.

[shysocks]

Whatever it is - scouting, drafting, training, pure luck - Sox pitching has been near the top of the league in the last 12 years, while the hitting just has not. I'd say Cooper has a good amount to do with that. That's a 12-year sample.

[witesoxfan]

Whatever it is - scouting, drafting, training, pure luck - Sox pitching has been near the top of the league in the last 12 years, while the hitting just has not. I'd say Cooper has a good amount to do with that. That's a 12-year sample.

 

2014 - 4.30 team ERA, 13th out of 15

2013 - 3.98 team ERA, 9th out of 15

2012 - 4.08 team ERA, 8th out of 14

2011 - 4.10 team ERA, 8th out of 14

2010 - 4.09 team ERA, 8th out of 14

2009 - 4.14 team ERA, 2nd out of 14

2008 - 4.06 team ERA, 6th out of 14

2007 - 4.77 team ERA, 12th out of 14

2006 - 4.61 team ERA, 10th out of 14

2005 - 3.61 team ERA, 1st out of 14

2004 - 4.91 team ERA, 11th out of 14

2003 - 4.17 team ERA, 4th out of 14

 

I didn't note 2002 as Nardi was the coach for half a year there and Cooper was cleaning up a mess.

 

On that list, I see 2 teams that had great pitching, 2 teams that had above average pitching, 4 teams that were pretty mediocre, and 2 teams that were bad, and 2 teams that were very bad. That's a fairly stable bell curve Cooper has working right now.