Home-grown Sox players

[caulfield12]

Saw where the Cardinals had 17 players drafted/developed from their minor league system (everyone other than Wainright/Braves, Holliday/A's, Lackey/Red Sox and then free agent signings Peralta, Choate and Neshek)...

 

Right now, we have Sale, Abreu, Alexei and Rodon.

 

Rienzo, Taylor Thompson, Wilkins, Danks, Mitchell, Trayce Thompson...all probably living on borrowed time. Most would put Alexei, and definitely Viciedo in that category as well.

 

 

I'm just looking at the current 40 man roster.

 

Of course, there are other guys (I added Micah Johnson for argument's sake since he's the closest of this non-roster group) like Anderson, Hawkins, Danish and Adams. Perhaps you could add Chris Beck as well as Olacio and Kevan Smith.

 

How likely is to get to at least 10-12 homegrown players before 2017?

[caulfield12]

Bassitt

Erik Johnson

Petricka

Snodgress

Phegley

Carlos Sanchez

Semien

Micah Johnson

Alexei Ramirez

Dayan Viciedo

 

Are any of these players likely to be around in 2017, in your opinion?

[beautox]

Bassitt

Erik Johnson

Petricka

Snodgress

Phegley

Carlos Sanchez

Semien

Micah Johnson

Alexei Ramirez

Dayan Viciedo

 

Are any of these players likely to be around in 2017, in your opinion?

 

[caulfield12]

I would guess that most would be of the belief that Johnson might never pitch for the Sox again...and that one of Sanchez/Semien/Micah, if not two, will end up either traded or simply not making it.

 

For right now, you could see Micah as the eventual starter, Semien at 3B/LF/DH and Sanchez in the Leury Garcia role for 2015....and I mean 2nd half of 2015, since Micah Johnson undoubtedly needs more seasoning at AAA and to prove his hamstrings are 100% again, since speed is his only plus tool at the moment.

 

They might want to try the approach of the Royals with Terrance Gore and have them spend their (Johnson/Semien) offseason bunting as much as possible. Both Johnson/Semien are better hitting prospects, yet going to this approach has seemingly had a positive effect on Gore, and might help cut down on their K rates.

 

 

Gore, 23, was a 20th-round Draft pick from Gulf Coast Community College in 2011. He has a career .237 batting average with zero home runs in 1,048 at-bats in the Minor Leagues and may never spend a full season in the Major Leagues. It's telling that when he was sent to Surprise, Ariz., for Instructional League last year, he was given orders to bunt every time he came to the plate.

 

Just as significant is that Gore welcomed the chance to work on that part of his game.

 

"I bunted the whole month,'' Gore said. "Literally I didn't swing a bat at all. It was fun. It made my game so much better. It showed me all you have to do is bunt the ball a little bit. That's got to be my primary thing to do in baseball. I'm not swinging the stick, not hitting home runs, but bunting improves everything. When I start bunting, I kid you not, I literally started hitting the ball really hard. I saw the ball hit the bat. My swing is the same way. It improves all kinds of stuff in your skills.''

 

Gore's speed is, literally, off the charts. Jarrod Dyson, the Royals' center fielder, runs to first base in 3.6 seconds from the left-handed batter's box. Gore gets there even quicker from the right-handed batter's box, clocked at times at 3.5. The top rating on the scale used by scouts is 80, but Gore is faster than the standard required for an 80.

 

Billy Hamilton, the Reds' National League Rookie of the Year candidate, set a Minor League record with 155 stolen bases in 2012, and White Sox prospect Micah Johnson swiped 84 in '13. Gore, with 168 steals in 330 games, hasn't had a season when he stacked stolen bases on top of themselves like that -- he had 52 steals this season -- but the potential is there.

 

Dayton Moore identified Gore as a potential stretch-run, postseason difference-maker long ago, which is why he promoted him to Omaha in early August. He wanted Gore to work on getting jumps against more experienced pitchers on his way to Kansas City.

 

www.mlb.com (Phil Rogers)

Edited October 8, 2014 by caulfield12

[LDF]

Saw where the Cardinals had 17 players drafted/developed from their minor league system (everyone other than Wainright/Braves, Holliday/A's, Lackey/Red Sox and then free agent signings Peralta, Choate and Neshek)...

 

Right now, we have Sale, Abreu, Alexei and Rodon.

 

Rienzo, Taylor Thompson, Wilkins, Danks, Mitchell, Trayce Thompson...all probably living on borrowed time. Most would put Alexei, and definitely Viciedo in that category as well.

 

 

I'm just looking at the current 40 man roster.

 

Of course, there are other guys (I added Micah Johnson for argument's sake since he's the closest of this non-roster group) like Anderson, Hawkins, Danish and Adams. Perhaps you could add Chris Beck as well as Olacio and Kevan Smith.

 

How likely is to get to at least 10-12 homegrown players before 2017?

 

I think you are wrong with that list.

 

[Kyyle23]

Alexei is an odd choice for home grown, since he never actually played in the minors and was signed as a intl free agent

[Donny Lucy's Avocado Farm]

Saw where the Cardinals had 17 players drafted/developed from their minor league system (everyone other than Wainright/Braves, Holliday/A's, Lackey/Red Sox and then free agent signings Peralta, Choate and Neshek)...

 

Right now, we have Sale, Abreu, Alexei and Rodon.

 

Rienzo, Taylor Thompson, Wilkins, Danks, Mitchell, Trayce Thompson...all probably living on borrowed time. Most would put Alexei, and definitely Viciedo in that category as well.

 

 

I'm just looking at the current 40 man roster.

 

Of course, there are other guys (I added Micah Johnson for argument's sake since he's the closest of this non-roster group) like Anderson, Hawkins, Danish and Adams. Perhaps you could add Chris Beck as well as Olacio and Kevan Smith.

 

How likely is to get to at least 10-12 homegrown players before 2017?

 

 

Abreu and Alexei are as "home grown" as Eaton and Gillaspie.

 

Players that are ON THE ROSTER, since that is the reference you make with STL to begin with... (with strikethroughs for guys we hopefully never have to see again or likely wont ever be seen)

 

Sale, Petricka, Webb, Jones, Bassitt, Johnson, Reinzo, Snodgress, Thompson, Phegley, Sanchez, Semien, Wilkins, JorDanks, Mitchell, Trayce Thompson.

[witesoxfan]

Of course, I'm not sure why "home-grown" talent ultimately matters. The Orioles don't have a hell of a lot of it and they're doing just fine.

 

[LittleHurt05]

The Orioles had maybe 7 home-grown players on their ALDS roster.

[NorthSideSox72]

I would guess that most would be of the belief that Johnson might never pitch for the Sox again...and that one of Sanchez/Semien/Micah, if not two, will end up either traded or simply not making it.

 

For right now, you could see Micah as the eventual starter, Semien at 3B/LF/DH and Sanchez in the Leury Garcia role for 2015....and I mean 2nd half of 2015, since Micah Johnson undoubtedly needs more seasoning at AAA and to prove his hamstrings are 100% again, since speed is his only plus tool at the moment.

 

They might want to try the approach of the Royals with Terrance Gore and have them spend their (Johnson/Semien) offseason bunting as much as possible. Both Johnson/Semien are better hitting prospects, yet going to this approach has seemingly had a positive effect on Gore, and might help cut down on their K rates.

 

 

Gore, 23, was a 20th-round Draft pick from Gulf Coast Community College in 2011. He has a career .237 batting average with zero home runs in 1,048 at-bats in the Minor Leagues and may never spend a full season in the Major Leagues. It's telling that when he was sent to Surprise, Ariz., for Instructional League last year, he was given orders to bunt every time he came to the plate.

 

Just as significant is that Gore welcomed the chance to work on that part of his game.

 

"I bunted the whole month,'' Gore said. "Literally I didn't swing a bat at all. It was fun. It made my game so much better. It showed me all you have to do is bunt the ball a little bit. That's got to be my primary thing to do in baseball. I'm not swinging the stick, not hitting home runs, but bunting improves everything. When I start bunting, I kid you not, I literally started hitting the ball really hard. I saw the ball hit the bat. My swing is the same way. It improves all kinds of stuff in your skills.''

 

Gore's speed is, literally, off the charts. Jarrod Dyson, the Royals' center fielder, runs to first base in 3.6 seconds from the left-handed batter's box. Gore gets there even quicker from the right-handed batter's box, clocked at times at 3.5. The top rating on the scale used by scouts is 80, but Gore is faster than the standard required for an 80.

 

Billy Hamilton, the Reds' National League Rookie of the Year candidate, set a Minor League record with 155 stolen bases in 2012, and White Sox prospect Micah Johnson swiped 84 in '13. Gore, with 168 steals in 330 games, hasn't had a season when he stacked stolen bases on top of themselves like that -- he had 52 steals this season -- but the potential is there.

 

Dayton Moore identified Gore as a potential stretch-run, postseason difference-maker long ago, which is why he promoted him to Omaha in early August. He wanted Gore to work on getting jumps against more experienced pitchers on his way to Kansas City.

 

www.mlb.com (Phil Rogers)

 

Putting Semien on a bunting spree makes no sense. His key offensive ability is getting on base, and he's shown some power as well. He's got better than average speed but he's not a big time burner. He should only be bunting rarely at most.

 

With Micah it makes more sense because if he gets good at it, that can be a key offensive weapon for a guy who likely won't hit for much power. And getting on base is that much more key for a guy with his speed.

 

[JoshPR]

Small corection. Matt Holliday was a rockies product not A's

[Quin]

Clearly we'd be in a better position with Andy Wilkins instead of Abreu*.

 

*Not counting Abreu or Alexei as homegrown.

[BlackSox13]

Clearly we'd be in a better position with Andy Wilkins instead of Abreu*.

 

*Not counting Abreu or Alexei as homegrown.

Better draft position...

 

 

[Quin]

Better draft position...

 

 

I think you mean ALCS.

[southsider2k5]

I think you mean ALCS.

 

The American League Choking Series.

[Quin]

Also, my favorite SoxTalk rant about homegrown players.

 

Specifically Gio.

 

I read the topic. Didn't care about anything else anybody else has said, so if what I say is aforementioned, then many kudos.

 

-

 

It depends upon which time you were talking about.

 

Had the Sox not traded for Jim Thome, they'd have been left with an 02-04ish offense, hoping and praying that Frank Thomas could stay healthy. They'd still be destroyed by great right handed pitching, and as a result probably would have only won 87 games instead of 90. That's IF they had kept Thomas.

 

Had they still let Thomas walk, the best case scenario I can see is that they would have ended up with Nomar Garciaparra. They still lose 3 wins.

 

That's at the very best.

 

Now, if you're an old school type who believes that protection in the lineup helps generate production from other players, than perhaps Jermaine Dye doesn't hit 44 home runs, perhaps Paul Konerko doesn't put up the exact same numbers as MVP Justin Morneau, and perhaps other pieces from the lineup fall as well. Perhaps the Sox lose 10 wins, are ridiculously far out of it at the break, and deal Freddy Garcia for 2 other prospects. And then never get Gio back, and after another very bad year in 2008, the Sox fire both Williams and Guillen and hire Dan Evans and Gene Lamont to run the team.

 

I think we all know how that one goes.

 

 

Now, had they not traded him the second time, which is the one I think you are getting at, having never read a single word of your post, then the Sox don't end up with Nick Swisher. Now, depending upon how strictly and strongly you believe in the statistic WAR, and whose definition you believe most in (baseballreference or fangraphs), the Sox are either better off without Swisher (-0.5 bWAR) or Nick Swisher was worth more than 1 win for the 2008 Chicago White Sox (1.3 fWAR). I give much more credence towards fWAR but I'm a homer, so do as you please.

 

But since, in this revisionist's history, we are using that, and we are using it to mean Nick Swisher was literally worth 1+ more wins than the average Joe they could have put in place, then what we would have seen would have been DeWayne Wise putting up 2 WAR in August alone and -3 WAR in the months outside of that, given general estimation. On top of that, even had the Sox found a perfect replacement level player to play instead of Swisher, who would have put up exactly a 0 fWAR, the Sox would have given up the division lead in the second game in the Metrodome, the final win against Cleveland wouldn't have mattered, they'd have never played the makeup game against Detroit, and the blackout game would have never taken place, thus, no Griffey/Thome/Danks show, and we would have never seen the batting champion-to-be bunt in his last plate appearance of the year attempting to get on base.

 

At that point in time, 2009 would have been far more disappointing, and the Sox almost certainly would have never had the resources to sign Dayan Viciedo during the 2008-09 offseason. They'd be in a full blown rebuilding mode, still with Dan Evans and Gene Lamont in charge. Going into the 4th year of Reinsdorf's always too generous length of stay, the Sox would be coming off their 2nd straight 90+ loss season with an absolute garbage product on the field but hope beyond hope in the minors with a top 10 system in the league.

 

 

 

But atleast they'd still have Gio f***in Gonzalez.

[southsider2k5]

Also, my favorite SoxTalk rant about homegrown players.

 

Specifically Gio.

 

No Lyle Mouton mention. I give you an F.

[caulfield12]

Webb came from the Blue Jays, so not on the list.

[caulfield12]

Of course, I'm not sure why "home-grown" talent ultimately matters. The Orioles don't have a hell of a lot of it and they're doing just fine.

 

 

 

 

The Cardinals would argue those homegrown players all come into the system knowing if they perform well, they'll be promoted (and promoted together, usually)...that the Cardinals Way is inculcated from the very beginning...that all the prospects buy into the system, and the expectations of joining a "winning" organization where nothing short of the World Series is now the expectation, etc.

 

They can watch examples like Wacha and Marco Gonzalez quickly progress through the system and know they can follow a similar path...or even examples where they're trading older veterans like Freese/Craig to create additional playing time for Wong, Grichuk, Adams, Tavares, etc.

 

 

 

This cohesiveness is something (besides the lack of offensive players) the White Sox have never developed, and I think a lot of it's simply due to the KW "riverboat gambling" style of throwing a lot of talented acquisitions together and HOPING that everything clicks on a yearly basis.

 

Then you look at almost every single player from our system having issues with strikeouts, execution offensively and defensively, baserunning...sloppy fielding mistakes, etc.

 

That doesn't happen as often with the Cardinals (Top 3 with defensive runs saved as a team) or Giants, when you compare them defensively to the White Sox, it's a futile exercise to find any players other than Eaton/Ramirez that could hold their own on those two teams as a defender.

[Boopa1219]

The Cardinals would argue those homegrown players all come into the system knowing if they perform well, they'll be promoted (and promoted together, usually)...that the Cardinals Way is inculcated from the very beginning...that all the prospects buy into the system, and the expectations of joining a "winning" organization where nothing short of the World Series is now the expectation, etc.

 

They can watch examples like Wacha and Marco Gonzalez quickly progress through the system and know they can follow a similar path...or even examples where they're trading older veterans like Freese/Craig to create additional playing time for Wong, Grichuk, Adams, Tavares, etc.

 

 

 

This cohesiveness is something (besides the lack of offensive players) the White Sox have never developed, and I think a lot of it's simply due to the KW "riverboat gambling" style of throwing a lot of talented acquisitions together and HOPING that everything clicks on a yearly basis.

 

Then you look at almost every single player from our system having issues with strikeouts, execution offensively and defensively, baserunning...sloppy fielding mistakes, etc.

 

That doesn't happen as often with the Cardinals (Top 3 with defensive runs saved as a team) or Giants, when you compare them defensively to the White Sox, it's a futile exercise to find any players other than Eaton/Ramirez that could hold their own on those two teams as a defender.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

But I think that we're starting to see a philosophy that is being enforced in the lower levels of the farm when it comes from a offensive standpoint and approach, and in my opinion I think that started when Todd Severson was hired as the hitting coach. I remember reading that one of the first things he did after he was hired was that he held a week long hitting camp for the younger prospects like Hawkins, Trey M., Micker, Anderson, etc. and together they established an approach and worked on their swings. You can really see what a difference his teachings made with Courtney Hawkins (

), the difference in his swing is undeniable.

 

And we have a well established pitching philosophy that comes from Dom Cooper.

 

The Sox have their offensive approach and pitching philosophy and over the years you're going to see those ideas trickled through the system and reach their way back to the majors.

[witesoxfan]

The Cardinals would argue those homegrown players all come into the system knowing if they perform well, they'll be promoted (and promoted together, usually)...that the Cardinals Way is inculcated from the very beginning...that all the prospects buy into the system, and the expectations of joining a "winning" organization where nothing short of the World Series is now the expectation, etc.

 

They can watch examples like Wacha and Marco Gonzalez quickly progress through the system and know they can follow a similar path...or even examples where they're trading older veterans like Freese/Craig to create additional playing time for Wong, Grichuk, Adams, Tavares, etc.

 

 

 

This cohesiveness is something (besides the lack of offensive players) the White Sox have never developed, and I think a lot of it's simply due to the KW "riverboat gambling" style of throwing a lot of talented acquisitions together and HOPING that everything clicks on a yearly basis.

 

Then you look at almost every single player from our system having issues with strikeouts, execution offensively and defensively, baserunning...sloppy fielding mistakes, etc.

 

That doesn't happen as often with the Cardinals (Top 3 with defensive runs saved as a team) or Giants, when you compare them defensively to the White Sox, it's a futile exercise to find any players other than Eaton/Ramirez that could hold their own on those two teams as a defender.

 

This post is a total stream of consciousness and I have no idea what the point is.

 

Two things: there's more than one way to skin a cat. As has been pointed out, the Orioles have very few "home-grown" players but it didn't stop them from winning 96 games and cruising through the ALDS. Also, if you believe that Kenny Williams wheeling and dealing hurt the Sox develop minor leaguers, please show me the minor leaguers the White Sox traded away that would be a part of the team right now. There are very few impact prospects.

[caulfield12]

This post is a total stream of consciousness and I have no idea what the point is.

 

Two things: there's more than one way to skin a cat. As has been pointed out, the Orioles have very few "home-grown" players but it didn't stop them from winning 96 games and cruising through the ALDS. Also, if you believe that Kenny Williams wheeling and dealing hurt the Sox develop minor leaguers, please show me the minor leaguers the White Sox traded away that would be a part of the team right now. There are very few impact prospects.

 

That's kind of the point (along with the fact that the Cardinals are bringing up 2-4 players together each year, wave after wave after wave of young talent). Obviously, the White Sox haven't developed any players worth trading to other teams, as none have developed to the point where they even had significant value in trade to another organization....unless you want to count the return on Gordon Beckham this August. We've had far too many Molinas and Zach Stewarts when we SHOULD have had the opportunity to replace guys like Santos and Edwin Jackson with young/impactful big league talent.

 

Essentially, you only have Sale/Abreu/Ramirez and you can also include Petricka and Viciedo, although most would argue Viciedo has little to or no value at the current time. Of course, those first three spent little or no time in the minors, and Rodon's following the same path.

 

 

At any rate, we haven't had the minor leaguers to trade which would amount to anything significant...even at the current moment, you're talking Sanchez/Semien/Micah, maybe Beck or Erik Johnson or Davidson, you'd be hard-pressed to put them all together and get even a starting player in return, certainly not a Top 1-75 player.

 

Maybe if you added Bassitt/Webb you'd spark some interest.

 

 

In the end, Mitchell, Walker and Thompson all appear to be busts, and that's hurt the system quite a bit. Johnson and Davidson aren't far behind.

 

We can talk all we want about trading Quintana or Ramirez, but we can't do that without seriously damaging our chances to compete in 2015 and 2016 IMO. Not having the minor league depth of quality talent has hurt for three seasons in a row. Even today, trading Anderson/Hawkins/Danish/Montas makes a lot less sense than holding onto them and seeing what we have in two years.

Edited October 9, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

It's funny how "cohesive" a team gets when they win a few games.

 

I think there's definitely an effect for chemistry, but I think it's close to completely unpredictable, both in magnitude and frequency. As a GM, the best you can do is put the best talent you can on the field and respond to behavioral outliers as they show up.

[NorthSideSox72]

It's funny how "cohesive" a team gets when they win a few games.

 

I think there's definitely an effect for chemistry, but I think it's close to completely unpredictable, both in magnitude and frequency. As a GM, the best you can do is put the best talent you can on the field and respond to behavioral outliers as they show up.

I pretty much agree with this. But there are also times where, if signing or trading for a new player, it is at least worth knowing a bit about the personality involved. Really just looking for those outliers - guys like Zambrano whose behavior and reputation indicate they could have a significant effect on the clubhouse (and there are some on the positive end too). Then you consider that with all the other factors. But you don't want it to weigh a lot (unless it is an extreme like Zambrano) because, as you said, there's really no predicting the final outcome.

 

[Balta1701]

I pretty much agree with this. But there are also times where, if signing or trading for a new player, it is at least worth knowing a bit about the personality involved. Really just looking for those outliers - guys like Zambrano whose behavior and reputation indicate they could have a significant effect on the clubhouse (and there are some on the positive end too). Then you consider that with all the other factors. But you don't want it to weigh a lot (unless it is an extreme like Zambrano) because, as you said, there's really no predicting the final outcome.

Still trying to figure out the 2013 White Sox. According to Hawk, there was "not a butthole on the team" (direct quote from ~April 2013). They were then the most undisciplined team I've ever seen. Fits into that topic somehow.