Dunt Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I know it doesnt fit the exact model that they've built their team with, but is anyone more inspired to spend money on the bullpen this offseason after watching KC's bullpen shut down people all year and be lights out in the postseason? Kansas City doesnt have a great offense by any means and their starters aren't all that special outside out Shields. What they do well though, is field exceptionally and shut people down from the 6th inning on. They dont have a ton of money invested in the pen because theyve developed all those pitchers besides Davis, but I think it goes without saying how important it is for the Sox to invest in improving their bullpen this year. I realize Miller and Robertson are going to be overpriced, but you need atleast one truly shut down guy out there next season or you can watch this team hover around .500 again. Get one of these guys to close, move Bassitt to setup, and have guys like Petricka, Putam, and Guerra battle it out for the 7th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:28 AM) I know it doesnt fit the exact model that they've built their team with, but is anyone more inspired to spend money on the bullpen this offseason after watching KC's bullpen shut down people all year and be lights out in the postseason? Kansas City doesnt have a great offense by any means and their starters aren't all that special outside out Shields. What they do well though, is field exceptionally and shut people down from the 6th inning on. They dont have a ton of money invested in the pen because theyve developed all those pitchers besides Davis, but I think it goes without saying how important it is for the Sox to invest in improving their bullpen this year. I realize Miller and Robertson are going to be overpriced, but you need atleast one truly shut down guy out there next season or you can watch this team hover around .500 again. Get one of these guys to close, move Bassitt to setup, and have guys like Petricka, Putam, and Guerra battle it out for the 7th. No - if anything, it reinforces that you can put together a great pen without spending a lot because Wade Davis can emerge as a stud for seemingly no reason. There will be 20 guys next season as good as Miller and Robertson who earn a fraction of what they do. We just have to get lucky and find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Yeah, the KC model is to collect as many guys as you can that throw 98 MPH and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:38 AM) Yeah, the KC model is to collect as many guys as you can that throw 98 MPH and go from there. They spent nothing on that pen. They are all failed starters they collected and move into the pen. And Kenny Williams was doing the collect guys who throw 98 thing long before KC was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:41 AM) They spent nothing on that pen. They are all failed starters they collected and move into the pen. And Kenny Williams was doing the collect guys who throw 98 thing long before KC was. Yes he was, and I wish he'd (or they, rather) would go back to that. You can teach guys to throw curveballs and sliders and changeups but you can't teach guys to throw 100 MPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 08:28 AM) I know it doesnt fit the exact model that they've built their team with, but is anyone more inspired to spend money on the bullpen this offseason after watching KC's bullpen shut down people all year and be lights out in the postseason? Kansas City doesnt have a great offense by any means and their starters aren't all that special outside out Shields. What they do well though, is field exceptionally and shut people down from the 6th inning on. They dont have a ton of money invested in the pen because theyve developed all those pitchers besides Davis, but I think it goes without saying how important it is for the Sox to invest in improving their bullpen this year. I realize Miller and Robertson are going to be overpriced, but you need atleast one truly shut down guy out there next season or you can watch this team hover around .500 again. Get one of these guys to close, move Bassitt to setup, and have guys like Petricka, Putam, and Guerra battle it out for the 7th. Ventura has one of the best arms in all of baseball, and Duffy's not far behind. Both are probably more effective already that James Shields, and Brandon Finnegan isn't far behind...not to mention Kyle Zimmer. There aren't very many teams with four young pitching prospects like that. KW and Hahn have been looking for that elusive combination from 2005 for about a decade. The closest they came was the first half of 2008, before Linebrink got hurt and wasn't the same after he came back....but that required big contracts for both Linebrink and Dotel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconOnAStick Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) Thr Royals have a godly defense, which makes their starters all very good and their bullpen nearly untouchable. Pitchers who have an aversion to giving up HR + defensive wizards everywhere = not giving up many runs. How many runs have opponents sscored against KC that didn't come from the long ball? It's not a lot. Edited October 16, 2014 by BaconOnAStick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 08:42 AM) Yes he was, and I wish he'd (or they, rather) would go back to that. You can teach guys to throw curveballs and sliders and changeups but you can't teach guys to throw 100 MPH. Even then, there's a big difference between Nate Jones/Cleto and Herrera at 97-101. Or Henry Rodriguez, etc. Williams tried those arms like MacDougal, Aardsma, Masset and Sisco, and they all flamed out with the Sox. He tried ever since he ditched Foulke for a burned out shell of his former self in Billy Koch in 2003. Montas will likely be the next flamethrower in the pen. Nobody has his stuff in the organization. Webb's not even close, not the way he threw in 2014. Maybe the 2013 minor league version. One can imagine Petricka or Guerra ending up like a Greg Holland, but that still leaves us short a Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts. Let's not forget how effective guys like Neshek and Uehara with unorthodox motions can be. Darren O'Day's another example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 08:42 AM) Yes he was, and I wish he'd (or they, rather) would go back to that. You can teach guys to throw curveballs and sliders and changeups but you can't teach guys to throw 100 MPH. Even then, there's a big difference between Nate Jones/Cleto and Herrera at 97-101. Or Henry Rodriguez, etc. Williams tried those arms like MacDougal, Aardsma, Masset and Sisco, and they all flamed out with the Sox. He tried ever since he ditched Foulke for a burned out shell of his former self in Billy Koch in 2003. Montas will likely be the next flamethrower in the pen. Nobody has his stuff in the organization. Webb's not even close, not the way he threw in 2014. Maybe the 2013 minor league version. One can imagine Petricka or Guerra ending up like a Greg Holland, but that still leaves us short a Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts. Let's not forget how effective guys like Neshek and Uehara with unorthodox motions can be. Darren O'Day's another example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconOnAStick Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 I'd also like to point out that Holland, Davis and Herrera are all righties (even their 4th option, Frasor is a righty) and Yost still uses them near exclusively. Handedness is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (BaconOnAStick @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:16 AM) I'd also like to point out that Holland, Davis and Herrera are all righties (even their 4th option, Frasor is a righty) and Yost still uses them near exclusively. Handedness is irrelevant. Doesn't Showalter have 3 LH in the bullpen? He is a guy who uses handedness and it worked well. There is more than one way to build a bullpen. Baltimore and KC had the best records in the AL when leading after 6. Lockdown bullpens win games, as we saw, even with a sweet starting staff in 2005. Bad bullpens waste good rotations. Good bullpens make less than perfect rotations much better. The key is, like everything else, picking the correct guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (BaconOnAStick @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:16 AM) I'd also like to point out that Holland, Davis and Herrera are all righties (even their 4th option, Frasor is a righty) and Yost still uses them near exclusively. Handedness is irrelevant. Good point. The concern about the Sox rotation being lefty-heavy, for example, is overblown. Sale kills everybody. Quintana has no relevant platoon split, and actually had a reverse split last year. I don't really think of those two guys as lefties so much as just studs. But Robin does pay a lot of attention to hand, so it matters in that sense. Maybe if he had the three guys Yost has, he'd relax a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (BaconOnAStick @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:16 AM) I'd also like to point out that Holland, Davis and Herrera are all righties (even their 4th option, Frasor is a righty) and Yost still uses them near exclusively. Handedness is irrelevant. Yet without Finnegan, they're the losers of the Wild Card game to Oakland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gatnom Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 You just have to trust the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconOnAStick Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Doesn't Showalter have 3 LH in the bullpen? He is a guy who uses handedness and it worked well. There is more than one way to build a bullpen. Baltimore and KC had the best records in the AL when leading after 6. Lockdown bullpens win games, as we saw, even with a sweet starting staff in 2005. Bad bullpens waste good rotations. Good bullpens make less than perfect rotations much better. The key is, like everything else, picking the correct guys. Britton and Miller are the two most oft-used lefties. Miller occasionally plays matchups, but Britton is the straight up closer. Not much indication that Buck cares too much who their facing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconOnAStick Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 Yet without Finnegan, they're the losers of the Wild Card game to Oakland. Didn't he pitch 3 innings in that game? He didn't just face a batter or two before leaving... he stayed in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:14 AM) Even then, there's a big difference between Nate Jones/Cleto and Herrera at 97-101. Or Henry Rodriguez, etc. Williams tried those arms like MacDougal, Aardsma, Masset and Sisco, and they all flamed out with the Sox. He tried ever since he ditched Foulke for a burned out shell of his former self in Billy Koch in 2003. Montas will likely be the next flamethrower in the pen. Nobody has his stuff in the organization. Webb's not even close, not the way he threw in 2014. Maybe the 2013 minor league version. One can imagine Petricka or Guerra ending up like a Greg Holland, but that still leaves us short a Cliff Politte and Neal Cotts. Let's not forget how effective guys like Neshek and Uehara with unorthodox motions can be. Darren O'Day's another example. I would like to point out that pretty much no one knew that KC would have a lockdown pen before this season started. Holland is the only guy who hasn't pitched WAY better than he did the previous season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (gatnom @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:30 AM) You just have to trust the process. Razor thin margin. Moore's out of a job if the Royals fade down the stretch and the Mariners overtake them. He's only got one more year (and missing the playoffs in 2015 would be the end) if they lose to the A's. Now he has OPTIONS. Because of Wil Myers slumping badly this year, and being injured, he suddenly looks a LOT smarter...that and the performance of Hosmer and Moustakas in the post-season. So many things went right...Aoki went on a tear in the second half (along with Escobar emerging as the leadoff hitter and no longer an automatic out like the first half), Cain came into is own as an offensive force, Dyson emerged on the basepaths and defensively, the starting rotation was healthy (Duffy and Ventura, along with Shields) for almost the entire season...the lockdown bullpen for almost the entire season, even when the offense was barely firing on 1-2 cylinders instead of 6. Alex Gordon essentially carried the team on his back for the first 4 1/2 months, and the rest of the team finally showed up when he went into a terrible season-ending slump. Then, finally, Finnegan breathed new life into the bullpen when they were trying to get by with Scott Downs in the stretch drive. Edited October 16, 2014 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 KC also BARELY made the postseason. I think any time you come to a conclusion where you say any of pitching/hitting/defense/baserunning is any more important than the rest, you're overthinking it and you're not making a useful conclusion. A good team needs to be able to do all of those things, and if they don't they're going to struggle to overcome it. KC's weakness is offense, and because of that they snuck in with the wild card. Now, during the postseason, they have more homeruns than EVERY other team. The pitching in defense isn't trumping offense in the postseason -- it's being tacked onto a monster offense that didn't exist before. KC is a solid team that is playing hot at the right time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:34 AM) I would like to point out that pretty much no one knew that KC would have a lockdown pen before this season started. Holland is the only guy who hasn't pitched WAY better than he did the previous season. That's been their model for the last three or four seasons, though. It's just that Herrera and Davis completely dominated this year. They had the exact same philosophy 3-4 years ago when it was Soria, Crow, Collins, Hochevar, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:34 AM) I would like to point out that pretty much no one knew that KC would have a lockdown pen before this season started. Holland is the only guy who hasn't pitched WAY better than he did the previous season. Well, Hawk the idiot, who the game has passed by, said KC had the best bullpen in the league in March. They have had a great bullpen for a few years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:00 AM) Well, Hawk the idiot, who the game has passed by, said KC had the best bullpen in the league in March. They have had a great bullpen for a few years now. But that was when it included Soria and when Tim Collins was a monster. Hawk didn't see Wade Davis coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:34 AM) I would like to point out that pretty much no one knew that KC would have a lockdown pen before this season started. Holland is the only guy who hasn't pitched WAY better than he did the previous season. That's been their model for the last three or four seasons, though. It's just that Herrera and Davis completely dominated this year. They had the exact same philosophy 3-4 years ago when it was Soria, Crow, Collins, Hochevar, etc. Shorten the game down to five innings from the starter, dominate the 6th-9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 10:14 AM) Montas will likely be the next flamethrower in the pen. Nobody has his stuff in the organization. Webb's not even close, not the way he threw in 2014. Maybe the 2013 minor league version. Let's hope not. The major problem with MacDougal is that Williams chased him - he gave up 2 top prospects for him. That's what is to be avoided. Heck Williams gave up a top 10 (close to a top 5) for some guy from Az who was nothing but a mediocre middle reliever. We need a couple of high end guys. But can't contrive them. Edited October 16, 2014 by GreenSox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chw42 Posted October 16, 2014 Share Posted October 16, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Oct 16, 2014 -> 09:38 AM) Yeah, the KC model is to collect as many guys as you can that throw 98 MPH and go from there. That's what we tried in 07 and look how that turned out. lol It's hit and miss, like most bullpens are. Edited October 16, 2014 by chw42 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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