Your 2015 Offseason Plan

[Chicago White Sox]

So what? 98% of big free agent pitcher contracts turn out TERRIBLE. Let's take his six best years and let some other team deal with him.

That has been the point I've been arguing all along. View him as a six year asset, which is perfectly fine, but don't waste one of those seasons in the bullpen.

[BlackSox13]

re: 1. why? i like to hate and hold grudges. i get bored quickly.

 

2. you can not use a what if to prove a point or an discussion.

 

3. yes there was, all the way to the day of the draft. many had the

sox not drafting Rodon b/c of the history. 2 thing pervented from happening

1. Hahn believe he could get it done.

2. salary cap and the new drafting rules.

 

re: why worry about Montas now. let him develop. he may still be a

starter.

1-

 

2- the point is valid. If the Sox truly had fears about Rodon having Boras for an agent they really could have signed someone else. The Sox could have said they wanted to take a player (Finnegan/Nola) to sign at or below slot to use the money in future round in the draft, but the Sox did not. They stuck to what they had said all along which was they were going to sign who they felt was the best player available regardless of that players agent. Its obvious Hahn and Jerry are not living in the past and that's the point.

 

As for Montas, that's what my post was about. There is no reason to push Montas. All I'm saying is at Montas' current pace, I can see him possibly being ready to push himself into the rotation in 2016, but by no means do I want to see him rushed. How long it takes is how long it takes.

This discussion is ridiculous....what if we can't afford a pitcher who hasn't thrown a pitch in the MLB yet in 5-6 years because he's really good? Really? This is what some of you guys worry about? Unless you have a crystal ball nobody has any clue what will be going on at that time so there's no point in worrying about. If Rodon earns a $100+M contract it can only be a good thing for the White Sox organization, any other thinking is just flat out unnecessarily negative. Heck let's be honest, we don't even know if we will have the same owner in 5-6 years. Anything can happen so relax and just cross your fingers Rodon lives up to his hype.

Exactly. The kid hasn't made his White Sox debute yet and some are already worrying about s*** 4,5,6 years down the road? Just silly. When Rodon is ready, the Sox will find him a spot in the rotation asap. The Sox FO is a lot different from other FO's that spend too much time thinking about a players clock, when it starts and for how long.

 

Re: Cargo. There is a Colorado based Blog called the Purple Row that writes some pretty good stuff. They certainly are not afraid to criticize the Rockies. They just started a series of ranking their players 1 through 45. They are now down to #38. Cargo was # 41. He had a cyst removed from his finger and major surgery on his patellar tendon. Plus, they had to remove some junk from under the knee cap. Don't ask me how they do that. My point is that his health is a major issue.

Thank for sharing this. This bolsters what some of have been saying about CarGo's health concerns. This does not mean he will never play at a high level again, just worth the $53M risk over the next 3 years. Colorado can keep that contract.

[BlackSox13]

That has been the point I've been arguing all along. View him as a six year asset, which is perfectly fine, but don't waste one of those seasons in the bullpen.

Absolutely. Rodon is a starter and will remain so unless he proves he is not and that is a long way away.

 

People are just too damn eager to open the Christmas presents. Patience!

[southsider2k5]

Let's order likelihoods here:

 

50% Rodon blows out his arm or under performs and the big pay day that's was so dreaded never matierializes.

15% Rodon plays well. Decides he doesn't want to risk arm injury for 3 or 4 more seasons before hitting free agency so takes a Sale-like deal.

15% 4 or 5 seasons pass, the guy is dominant and seems intent on getting paid big. The Sox get the world from some team in a trade.

15% Boras gets fired by Rodon.

5% He just walks. The Sox get a draft pick (if that's even still a thing in 2022 or 2021).

 

I think your numbers have no merit in reality.

[southsider2k5]

Media memes die SO slow.

 

Clearly, our team has no problem dealing with Boras at this point. We can all see that now, right?

 

To be fair, it took until almost the very end of the signing period to sign Rodon and it took us going right up against the signing penalties to get this done. It sure didn't help my view of them at all.

[Balta1701]

To be fair, it took until almost the very end of the signing period to sign Rodon and it took us going right up against the signing penalties to get this done. It sure didn't help my view of them at all.

An educated guess from the way they gave "no comments" or whatever it was when Rodon didn't get called up is that the long negotiation played into it in ways that the team was not happy about.

[LDF]

Don't be so blinded by trying to maximize Montas' value.

 

The White Sox have at least some starting pitchers. The White Sox have nobody, literally nobody, who can be relied on out of the pen. They're not paying for someone either, we know that much.

 

Montas might have more value as a starter for the other 29 teams in baseball, but the Sox have the glaringest of needs in the bullpen. Plus pitching out of the pen should substantially reduce his injury risk.

 

by your interest in trading Montas, you are barely touching the tip of the iceberg in

his potential.

 

next lets wait and see after the WS and see who is going to be avail thru trades, and who are

avail FA's.

 

the sox knows they have to address the pen, whether thru trades, fa signing or some prospects

in the sox systems. the system is design to supplement the parent team.

[LDF]

So what? 98% of big free agent pitcher contracts turn out TERRIBLE. Let's take his six best years and let some other team deal with him.

 

and if he turns out to be a very good pitcher, lets wait 3 yrs and trade him for prospects?

 

 

[GreenSox]

Don't be so blinded by trying to maximize Montas' value.

 

The White Sox have at least some starting pitchers. The White Sox have nobody, literally nobody, who can be relied on out of the pen. They're not paying for someone either, we know that much.

 

Montas might have more value as a starter for the other 29 teams in baseball, but the Sox have the glaringest of needs in the bullpen. Plus pitching out of the pen should substantially reduce his injury risk.

Heck yes you should try to maximize value. That's how you develop a winner.

 

Putnam, Guerra and Petricka are good bullpen pitchers.

Sox have at least an equal need for starting pitching.

 

That said, a year in the pen is decent prep to start. But if Montas can start eventually, he starts. Making a bullpen pitcher out of a quality starter is clowning around.

Edited October 18, 2014 by GreenSox

[caulfield12]

http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2014/09...h-table-setter/

 

Argument for zobrist in lf....makes sense

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

http://www.chicagonow.com/cubs-den/2014/09...h-table-setter/

 

Argument for zobrist in lf....makes sense

 

Ben Zobrist is such an unfathomably weird advanced metric player. He puts up the craziest WAR totals and it never quite seems right. He is like the Javier Vazquez of position players when it comes to advanced metrics.

 

We "should" have to give up the farm for a guy who is 5+ WAR every single season, but for some reason I just don't feel comfortable trading major pieces for Ben Zobrist.

 

It's hard to even come up with a fair trade in my head because everything I'd WANT to give up for him is far less than what his production dictates he SHOULD get from us. He is 33 years old, so that should be noted as well, but....I guess I'll throw this out there.....

 

Carlos Sanchez, Frank Montas, and Chris Beck?

 

I feel like his numbers are worth way more than that, but I just can't bring myself to want to give up more.

[Chicago White Sox]

Ben Zobrist is such an unfathomably weird advanced metric player. He puts up the craziest WAR totals and it never quite seems right. He is like the Javier Vazquez of position players when it comes to advanced metrics.

 

We "should" have to give up the farm for a guy who is 5+ WAR every single season, but for some reason I just don't feel comfortable trading major pieces for Ben Zobrist.

 

It's hard to even come up with a fair trade in my head because everything I'd WANT to give up for him is far less than what his production dictates he SHOULD get from us. He is 33 years old, so that should be noted as well, but....I guess I'll throw this out there.....

 

Carlos Sanchez, Frank Montas, and Chris Beck?

 

I feel like his numbers are worth way more than that, but I just can't bring myself to want to give up more.

Even if you believe his WAR figures are accurate, he's 33 years old and has one season of team control left. No way you give up that package for him. In fact, that package might be able to land you a guy like Jay Bruce, who is younger and provides multiple years of control at a very reasonable price.

[TheFutureIsNear]

It's a little mind boggling to me how many of these trades involve our top prospects by the way. We are just now building up our farm system for the 1st time in a long time, lets not ruin that by trading them for guys who in all reality aren't big difference makers. Rodon, Anderson, Hawkins, Micah, Montas, Adams, and Danish should all be borderline untouchable imo. Unless someone blows us away with an offer of a hitter under 27 who could be a cornerstone of the franchise for years to come I'm not moving any of them. With the pieces already in place we have a real shot to build something special, don't ruin that by trying to rush it.

[LDF]

It's a little mind boggling to me how many of these trades involve our top prospects by the way. We are just now building up our farm system for the 1st time in a long time, lets not ruin that by trading them for guys who in all reality aren't big difference makers. Rodon, Anderson, Hawkins, Micah, Montas, Adams, and Danish should all be borderline untouchable imo. Unless someone blows us away with an offer of a hitter under 27 who could be a cornerstone of the franchise for years to come I'm not moving any of them. With the pieces already in place we have a real shot to build something special, don't ruin that by trying to rush it.

 

I agree and would like to add, the sox may not have that one additional superstar

that many appears to want, but I trust Hahn in doing the right thing. the sox has

more of a need in fielding a competitive team. the sox fans will not accept anything

less. find the missing pieces thru free agent signing, continue rebuilding the farm

and draft smartly.

 

ref sox fans, has anybody really noticed that we are really that demanding? so can

anyone really imagine, for this example only, if the sox would have made a trade

for let say a known superstar hitter. put that hitter next with Jose A, I would imagine

that the crowd will be coming back in the hundreds.

 

question, which hitter can do that now and what would be a cost?

[LDF]

Even if you believe his WAR figures are accurate, he's 33 years old and has one season of team control left. No way you give up that package for him. In fact, that package might be able to land you a guy like Jay Bruce, who is younger and provides multiple years of control at a very reasonable price.

 

you give up that package for a player in the mid 20's.

[GreenSox]

Carlos Sanchez, Frank Montas, and Chris Beck?

 

I feel like his numbers are worth way more than that, but I just can't bring myself to want to give up more.

More?

More for a 33 year old .749 OPS with 1 year left on contract?

The trade as listed would horrendous - Worse than the first Swisher trade.

 

 

No reaching and no trading of top prospects, especially for aging veterans.

Edited October 18, 2014 by GreenSox

[thxfrthmmrs]

Ben Zobrist is such an unfathomably weird advanced metric player. He puts up the craziest WAR totals and it never quite seems right. He is like the Javier Vazquez of position players when it comes to advanced metrics.

 

We "should" have to give up the farm for a guy who is 5+ WAR every single season, but for some reason I just don't feel comfortable trading major pieces for Ben Zobrist.

 

It's hard to even come up with a fair trade in my head because everything I'd WANT to give up for him is far less than what his production dictates he SHOULD get from us. He is 33 years old, so that should be noted as well, but....I guess I'll throw this out there.....

 

Carlos Sanchez, Frank Montas, and Chris Beck?

 

I feel like his numbers are worth way more than that, but I just can't bring myself to want to give up more.

 

I think the WAR figures are pretty accurate. You often overlook guys like him because he does so many things well but nothing spectacular. 4 of the past 6 years, he's been a .270, and 20-20 player, with 80-100 walks, and added on to that solid to great defense at every position. You can't find a lot of guys like him in the majors. Think of him as Alexei with supreme plate discipline and playing in a pitcher friendly park. Personally I never get why he's rated as a better defender than Alexei.

 

Given that, I didn't know he was 33 already. But if he were to play LF, I think he would still have 2-3 good years left in him.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

More?

More for a 33 year old .749 OPS with 1 year left on contract?

The trade as listed would horrendous - Worse than the first Swisher trade.

 

 

No reaching and no trading of top prospects, especially for aging veterans.

 

Like I said, it sounds awful when you don't accept that fact that he has the 2nd highest WAR total in baseball since his first full season in the bigs. That's from 2009 through 2014, the ONLY player in baseball who has been better is Miguel Cabrera, and not by much.

 

He ranks better than Cano, Longoria, McCutchen, Beltre, Votto, Pedroia, Tulo, Pujols, etc.

 

Would you not give up 3 prospects who may not even be listed as top 100 prospects for one of those guys for 1 year coming off an MVP season, even at age 33?

 

I think because it's Ben Zobrist and not one of those names above, we feel we don't trust it.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

you give up that package for a player in the mid 20's.

 

Let's not be THOSE fans who overrate our prospects so heavily. Montas is the ONLY guy who MAY wind up in the BACK of a top 100 list. Beck and Sanchez are dime a dozen prospects. Montas took big strides, but he is still 1 more great season away from being a consensus top 100 guy.

[Balta1701]

Let's not be THOSE fans who overrate our prospects so heavily. Montas is the ONLY guy who MAY wind up in the BACK of a top 100 list. Beck and Sanchez are dime a dozen prospects. Montas took big strides, but he is still 1 more great season away from being a consensus top 100 guy.

That's all fine...but even given that, we aren't in position to be trading those things for guys in their 30s who are a year away from free agency. Those guys would serve us better as bench players or bullpen pitchers or as throwins in a deal for someone who does fit us than they would in a deal for a guy at that point in his career.

[Rooftop Shots]

I agree and would like to add, the sox may not have that one additional superstar

that many appears to want, but I trust Hahn in doing the right thing. the sox has

more of a need in fielding a competitive team. the sox fans will not accept anything

less. find the missing pieces thru free agent signing, continue rebuilding the farm

and draft smartly.

 

ref sox fans, has anybody really noticed that we are really that demanding? so can

anyone really imagine, for this example only, if the sox would have made a trade

for let say a known superstar hitter. put that hitter next with Jose A, I would imagine

that the crowd will be coming back in the hundreds.

 

question, which hitter can do that now and what would be a cost?

 

Who? Its insanely laughable, but if you wanna put people in the stands with someone next to Abreu, then Giancarlo Stanton would do the trick. YES I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. But you asked what would do it. At what cost? probably whatever THEY wanted for him. The other scenario (or should I say pipedream) Trade for Puig........and sign V Mart (Yes I know V-marts age, but he seldom strikes out and is still proven to be an impact player. Just saying.... want people in the stands?

CF Eaton

3B Gillaspie (since he makes contact)(Or whoever plays second base listed below for speed/makes contact and can bunt)

RF Puig

1B Abreu

DH Vmart

LF Garcia

SS Alexei

2B (Semien/Sanchez/M.Johnson)

C (Whoever)

 

Before anyone goes off on a tangent... I KNOW this is not ever feasable. Just answering the question as to what it would take to get people in the stands next to Abreu. Those 4 in the middle of the lineup with speed /contact hitters ahead of them?? Would love to see it.

[Balta1701]

Just answering the question as to what it would take to get people in the stands next to Abreu

Win. 90. Games.

 

A couple years in a row too.

[LDF]

Who? Its insanely laughable, but if you wanna put people in the stands with someone next to Abreu, then Giancarlo Stanton would do the trick. YES I KNOW IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. But you asked what would do it. At what cost? probably whatever THEY wanted for him. The other scenario (or should I say pipedream) Trade for Puig........and sign V Mart (Yes I know V-marts age, but he seldom strikes out and is still proven to be an impact player. Just saying.... want people in the stands?

CF Eaton

3B Gillaspie (since he makes contact)(Or whoever plays second base listed below for speed/makes contact and can bunt)

RF Puig

1B Abreu

DH Vmart

LF Garcia

SS Alexei

2B (Semien/Sanchez/M.Johnson)

C (Whoever)

 

Before anyone goes off on a tangent... I KNOW this is not ever feasable. Just answering the question as to what it would take to get people in the stands next to Abreu. Those 4 in the middle of the lineup with speed /contact hitters ahead of them?? Would love to see it.

 

you are partial right and that is where I was going for. as you said, insanely laughable (I like these words)

Stanton is what I wanted to use as an example. the sox would have to throw in the farm system and utilities.

but it would put some fans in the stand.

 

but that is not going to happen. so smart acquisitions of players is a must. smart addressing the

need of the team with the free agents and yes if must trading players esp favorites to acquire the

final pieces may be required.

[LDF]

Let's not be THOSE fans who overrate our prospects so heavily. Montas is the ONLY guy who MAY wind up in the BACK of a top 100 list. Beck and Sanchez are dime a dozen prospects. Montas took big strides, but he is still 1 more great season away from being a consensus top 100 guy.

 

isn't that the case in a lot of situations? you are right though, we as fans need to

keep that in the back of our mind. what is really the real value of Player A,B etc..

[LDF]

Win. 90. Games.

 

A couple years in a row too.

 

bingo!!!!!

 

that is the answer and with smart usage of the sox resources.

 

I would most definitely add, real smart drafting. if the sox acquire the

nucleus of a very good team, this next draft, esp in the first rnd may

need to be a fast moving hitter (s)