Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[Eminor3rd]

Remember the Sale/Martinez incident ? It was Avi who told Martinez that Sale thought he was getting signs from CF which is a more recent thing than the Fielder incident so I'm pretty sure Avi and Victor are friends. I think when talking mentors a fellow countryman will always be a better choice for influence.

 

My many many yrs. of being a Sox and baseball fan tell me its the intangibles that often make a difference . So while I will always applaud your logical way of looking at things taking VMart from the Tigers and a possible adjustment yr. needed from LaRoche to facing AL pitchers at his age and the publicity surrounding a VMArt signing are things that can't be ignored or pushed aside as negligible.

 

I don't mean to imply that those things are negligible; I agree that they are important. I just think that too often we ASSUME they'll be in play when they may not. For example: we assume that every Cuban player will insist on being around the most other Cuban players. In reality, maybe just having one or two is enough, or maybe it helps for the first season but doesn't matter to a guy who has gotten his feet wet in the league, or maybe some of the guys know each other but don't particularly LIKE each other. Or in terms of mentorship/leadership: we assume that Victor will be a great leader, but who says we don't already have one on the team? I think it's really hard to predict which guys will get along with each other, and there's a decent chance that a new leader emerges from anywhere. So getting Victor isn't necessarily the choice between a leader or no leader.

 

I just don't think it's safe to assume that the intangibles that a guy brings will make a significant difference. Intangibles, in general, always matter in the end, but they don't often appear and operate in predictable ways.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[witesoxfan]

I'd also like to point out that since I heavily rejoined the discussion the votes went from 23 for and 25 against to 25/25 . Seriously though I think that most people's minds were made up on this subject long before this thread. Any of you voters out there who were on the fence but reading the thread swayed you one way or another ?

 

Nothing in this thread has, but I've gone from "it's ridiculous and preposterous" to "for the right price, it makes sense" over the course of the season.

 

I don't think the Sox will end up with him but they'll definitely have interest.

[LDF]

Nothing in this thread has, but I've gone from "it's ridiculous and preposterous" to "for the right price, it makes sense" over the course of the season.

 

I don't think the Sox will end up with him but they'll definitely have interest.

 

the sox does not need to go all in so to speak this season. a few reasonable

smart moves even on the short term bases will do wonders. next yr fa's is looking

nice. if the sox can get a 1 yr stop gap player who needs to rebuild his

value. that will be even better.

 

fill the holes that really need fixing.

[Lillian]

MLB Network Radio @MLBNetworkRadio · 8m 8 minutes ago

.@Tigers OF JD Martinez tells "Inside Pitch" he's talked to Victor Martinez, VMart says he wants to come back to DET if their offer is close

 

If he sincerely wants to return to the Tigers, they may sign him for the 4 years, $60 Million, that the N. Y. Post predicts. However if he signs elsewhere, I will be surprised if it is less than 4 years, $70 Million. I would guess $20 Million for each of the first two years, and $15 Million, for each of the last two years.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Lillian

[Dick Allen]

If he sincerely wants to return to the Tigers, they may sign him for the 4 years, $60 Million. However if he signs elsewhere, I will be surprised if it is less than

4 years, $70 Million. I would guess $20 Million for each of the first two years, and $15 Million, for each of the last two years.

 

 

If that is what it is, then I think the Sox should pass. I think he will be cheaper than that.

[Lillian]

If that is what it is, then I think the Sox should pass. I think he will be cheaper than that.

 

We'll see. I just think that is what it will take to get him to leave Detroit. These free agent signings usually cost more than expected.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Lillian

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Two things that would make much more sense,IMO.

 

1- signing another FA hitter or two to go with the VMart signing. If the Sox are going to lose a pick, may as well use this year to sign FA's since the number one is protected regardless so at least the Sox keep that no matter what. Sign one or two other guys first and show VMart the Sox are committed to winning in 2015. Another advantage to this would be if the Sox sign a another player or two that cost picks, the Tigers end up with the Sox 3rd or 4th round pick as compensation instead of the 2 .

I don't think anyone responded to this and if makes a whole lot of sense. Only sign as many free agents as you can afford that fit your team not just hitters. Let's say the Sox sign VMart and 2 other guys who were given a qualifying offer . Then we give up what ,a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd pick in one draft class. Beats the hell out of losing #1 's in separate years.

 

You could sign VMart , Melky or Headley and a few 2nd tier relievers (those who don't cost $9M+) or a SP .

 

Is this possible ? Are there rules against beating the system in this way ?

[Balta1701]

I don't think anyone responded to this and if makes a whole lot of sense. Only sign as many free agents as you can afford that fit your team not just hitters. Let's say the Sox sign VMart and 2 other guys who were given a qualifying offer . Then we give up what ,a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd pick in one draft class. Beats the hell out of losing #1 's in separate years.

 

You could sign VMart , Melky or Headley and a few 2nd tier relievers (those who don't cost $9M+) or a SP .

 

Is this possible ? Are there rules against beating the system in this way ?

Yes, that is all ok and doing that in 1 year does minimize your total losses.

[gosox41]

Soxtalk seems split on whether or not VMArt would be a good addtion. So here's your chance to make your opinions known. Of course you might have caveats depending on contract length and dollars so feel free to voice them.

 

I will start with Victor at 3 yrs I can handle but 4 years is too long. Of course there's a chance at his age that his production falls. It probably will considering just how good he was last year but he's still better than most options. I want the Sox to get another ring and that might not happen untl we get another legit bat with Abreu ( other additions ,of course ,also must be made)

 

 

Never trust players who have their best years when playing for a contract. I thought the Sox were going to get younger, faster with better defense/pitching.

 

The team won 73 games last year. Getting V Mart probably means more wins but does he account for 17-20 more. Because that's how many more wins we need to win the division. I don't think so.

 

So all getting V Mart does is hurt the Sox draft position. Or to put it another way, the Sox have too many holes to fill next year and lack the farm system and the budget to fill them. We need to keep improving the farm system and only make intelligent trades where we are not overpaying a player to win a few more games while he is in the decline of his career.

 

If the Sox were one hitter away, that's a different story. They're not.

 

 

 

Bob

[Heads22]

I agree with wite.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Never trust players who have their best years when playing for a contract. I thought the Sox were going to get younger, faster with better defense/pitching.

 

The team won 73 games last year. Getting V Mart probably means more wins but does he account for 17-20 more. Because that's how many more wins we need to win the division. I don't think so.

 

So all getting V Mart does is hurt the Sox draft position. Or to put it another way, the Sox have too many holes to fill next year and lack the farm system and the budget to fill them. We need to keep improving the farm system and only make intelligent trades where we are not overpaying a player to win a few more games while he is in the decline of his career.

 

If the Sox were one hitter away, that's a different story. They're not.

 

 

 

Bob

And again no one said VMart has to be the only addition. Also apparently best years are bad as are worst years and declining years so when do you exacting jump into the fray ?

[BlackSox13]

I don't think anyone responded to this and if makes a whole lot of sense. Only sign as many free agents as you can afford that fit your team not just hitters. Let's say the Sox sign VMart and 2 other guys who were given a qualifying offer . Then we give up what ,a 2nd, 3rd and 4th rd pick in one draft class. Beats the hell out of losing #1 's in separate years.

 

You could sign VMart , Melky or Headley and a few 2nd tier relievers (those who don't cost $9M+) or a SP .

 

Is this possible ? Are there rules against beating the system in this way ?

Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks.

 

 

 

If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two.

 

IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right?

 

[caulfield12]

Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks.

 

 

 

If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two.

 

IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right?

 

 

That strategy provides you an opening day rotation of Sale, Quintana, Noesi, Bassitt and Carroll/Beck.

[BlackSox13]

That strategy provides you an opening day rotation of Sale, Quintana, Noesi, Bassitt and Carroll/Beck.

Its definitely not ideal but at some point the Sox will be relying on a young pitcher or two anyway. I would imagine the rotation would be Sale, Q, Noesi, Rodon and Bassitt which I would be fine with.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Sure its possible, just ask the Yanks.

 

 

 

If it were up to me, this is how I would go about making the Sox a contender in 2015. Headley and VMart would be great additions and if Toronto signs Melky then the Sox could try for Rasmus. If not Rasmus, the Sox could look into an exchange of bad contracts like Danks for Andre Ethier. Essentially Ethier would add 3.75M to the current payroll which should allow plenty of space for Headley, VMart and a bullpen arm or maybe even two.

 

IMO, this would would be the best way to fill in some holes while not trading away any prized prospects that the Sox have so few of in the first place. Since the Sox have so much room in payroll and a protected first rounder, it makes sense to hit the FA market. Problem is, will JR spend on multiple free agents. History says no but one can hope right?

I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.

Edited November 5, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[GreenSox]

I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.

Who is really worth losing that pick for? First, they aren't going to sign one of the high end pitchers. So that leaves, Sandoval, Headley and V Mart. That's about it. They aren't getting the first two (they will be outbid) so that leaves V Mart. What they need more than V Mart, is an outfielder, who plays good D and who can hit and who is in his prime.

[BlackSox13]

I think it's very possible because chances like this do not come along very often and the goal is to win is it not ? Trying to stay below $100M payroll and expecting to compete doesn't work out very often so take full advantage of that protected pick and go for it. Also lets not forget that TV money of $25M every yr through 2021, . It all won't go for player payroll of course but there is plenty of money available.

We definitely agree on going for it. The Sox have said they plan on contending in 2015, well its going to cost. If they want to boost sales next year, they will have to spend money this off season and show fans they really do plan on contending. Hopefully JR realizes this.

[Eminor3rd]

Oh man.

[BlackSox13]

I just looked at the poll and its dead even at 27. I'm kinda surprised.

[Dam8610]

Three points I've seen here that I'd like to address:

 

-"If you go after Martinez, you can go after other guys with a QO."

 

Sure, but I doubt the White Sox are willing to add $100 million to the payroll, and that's close to what it would take to get to a team that would be considered favorites for the division.

 

-"If Martinez comes at the right price, I'm on board."

 

Me too! In fact, let's just skip this whole "free agency" process and bring him on at 2/$20.

 

-"Martinez will still be performing at 39."

 

Really?! Well, hell, forget 2/$20, let's sign him up for 4/$30 (don't want to take too much risk). Glad to know we now have ways to predict player performance 4 years out, though.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Dam8610

[greg775]

Greg just broke the tie. Yeah I'm a fuddy duddy regarding Vic.

[caulfield12]

Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season.

 

Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015?

 

 

We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again.

 

The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess.

Edited November 5, 2014 by caulfield12

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season.

 

Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015?

 

 

We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again.

 

The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess.

I'd like to see your breakdown on who you think gets what with those 4. Anderson can't stay healthy, Romo throws an 88 mph FB, LaRoche can't hit lefties and Rasmus defensive metrics are dropping, his K rate is rising and he himself has questioned his love of the game.

 

On the plus side none of them had a career yr ( or even close to it ) so that is a sure signal to snatch them up early because of all the teams who love to sign trending downward free agents for megabucks

Edited November 5, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[LDF]

I don't mean to imply that those things are negligible; I agree that they are important. I just think that too often we ASSUME they'll be in play when they may not. For example: we assume that every Cuban player will insist on being around the most other Cuban players. In reality, maybe just having one or two is enough, or maybe it helps for the first season but doesn't matter to a guy who has gotten his feet wet in the league, or maybe some of the guys know each other but don't particularly LIKE each other. Or in terms of mentorship/leadership: we assume that Victor will be a great leader, but who says we don't already have one on the team? I think it's really hard to predict which guys will get along with each other, and there's a decent chance that a new leader emerges from anywhere. So getting Victor isn't necessarily the choice between a leader or no leader.

 

I just don't think it's safe to assume that the intangibles that a guy brings will make a significant difference. Intangibles, in general, always matter in the end, but they don't often appear and operate in predictable ways.

 

I am coming very late to this party, so I will say this only Bravo. excellent

post.

 

on a side note dang, I wish I could write like this.

[Chicago White Sox]

Let's say they added Rasmus, LaRoche, Brett Anderson and Romo...along with the idea of Rodon joining the team at mid-season.

 

Does anyone believe that's enough to put the White Sox in contention in 2015?

 

 

We have to face the fact that outside of signing Scherzer, Lester, Sandoval, V-Mart or Hanley Ramirez, there aren't many INDIVIDUAL players who will move the meter until the Sox start winning again.

 

The combination I listed above is going to cost around $37.5-45 million in added payroll, just a guess.

No way those guys are getting $40M+ combined.