Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[Dick Allen]

The same way Iguchi, Everett, Contreras, Pods, Vizcaino, Politte, Hermanson, Dye, AJ and El Duque worked for the White Sox...or the veteran additions the Red Sox made heading into the 2013 season.

 

Remember Napoli, Victorino, Uehara, Gomes and David Ross??? None of those guys were "headliners" like Victor Martinez when they were acquired.

 

Same thing with all the players the White Sox brought in (with the exception of F. Garcia)....Everett and El Duque were among the most expensive additions.

But you are going bottom of the barrel. Brett Anderson. It's an upset if he pitches 60 innings, but it's OK to just blow money on him because Jeff Passan thinks someday he might actually pitch an entire season. And it probably is an awesome bet that would happen now, 5 years since he reached 100 innings, coming off back surgery.

 

At least if you sign Victor, you can at least EXPECT production, instead of just hoping. As Hawk said, you want to win, you have to spend money. I honestly don't understand the fascination so many have about keeping money in JR's wallet.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I think I agree with caulfield.

 

The problem is this: posters have taken dozens of well-thought-out stabs at what going "all in" would look like this year. Some seem insane, some seem conservative, etc.

 

And to me, ALL of them leave us with what looks like a very mediocre team.

Guess I'm more optimistic than you are. Let's say Abreu, Sale Q, and Eaton perform equally well as last year. Now add VMart to the offense . Even you said his most likely best yr. if he is signed would be in the 1st yr. of the contract. Say we swap out Viciedo for Saunders or someone equal ,not trade Viciedo for that player just replace one with the other. Improve the bullpen to the point where it might be somewhat better than middle of the pack rather than at rock bottom and the Sox probably are over .500 .

 

If a few other things go right such as Rodon and Bassitt shining a bit getting some combination of 15 W's between them, then we are in contention. Maybe Danks can even do better or Noesi . I'm not counting on it but I'd give it a 33% chance.

[Balta1701]

Guess I'm more optimistic than you are. Let's say Abreu, Sale Q, and Eaton perform equally well as last year. Now add VMart to the offense . Even you said his most likely best yr. if he is signed would be in the 1st yr. of the contract. Say we swap out Viciedo for Saunders or someone equal ,not trade Viciedo for that player just replace one with the other. Improve the bullpen to the point where it might be somewhat better than middle of the pack rather than at rock bottom and the Sox probably are over .500 .

 

If a few other things go right such as Rodon and Bassitt shining a bit getting some combination of 15 W's between them, then we are in contention. Maybe Danks can even do better or Noesi . I'm not counting on it but I'd give it a 33% chance.

So you've spent $30 million+ on Martinez and 2 relievers, the OF is unnamed and we're hoping for the best, we've got basically no space the next year in Free Agency because no big contracts end and several guys get more expensive, and we're "probably over .500".

 

You've therefore summed up my problem with the concept of spending $30 million+ this offseason.

[Eminor3rd]

To be fair, two teams that look very mediocre just played in the World Series.

 

But neither of those two just maxed themselves out for the next several years by committing to declining veterans.

 

Like I said somewhere recently (maybe earlier in this thread), it makes some sense to be a .500-ish team, but only if you can SUSTAIN it. You can't sustain it by pushing all in on a crap hand. Maybe you get the shot in the dark for a year, but guess what happens next? Rebuild.

 

Hahn, like so many others right now, is aiming for this to be the final rebuild. I don't know if it's possible, but the idea is to take lumps now to put together something that can be reasonably competitive every year. Pushing all in on Victor Martinez, Melky Cabrera, a reclamation project starter, and a couple overpaid relievers at this point feels like taking a half court shot in 2015 at the cost of not having a prayer for the next three or four years.

[clyons]

I'm not sure why exactly I think this, but I think he could be one of those Julio Franco/Edgar Martinez types that could rake as a DH into his 40s (not that I would want to give him 4 years; but I think he is worth big bucks for 3), especially since he hasn't really caught in years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So you've spent $30 million+ on Martinez and 2 relievers, the OF is unnamed and we're hoping for the best, we've got basically no space the next year in Free Agency because no big contracts end and several guys get more expensive, and we're "probably over .500".

 

You've therefore summed up my problem with the concept of spending $30 million+ this offseason.

I say probably over .500 because I don't like making definitive statemenrts like I know that it will actually happen . I could've phrased it " we WiLL be 10 games above .500 but I'm just taking my best guess here. Who the hell knows what would happen but I'd rather take the shot at it in a yr where our 1st round pick is protected and we have the payroll space to take advantage of that.

[GreenSox]

Rasmus would be fine - reasonable risk.

The problem with the other guys is that they are all past their prime. to me only the 3B look interesting.

If board fav Heyward were up this year, he would be someone to consider - in his prime and he can defend. Trouble is, teams are tying more and more of these guys up.

Comparisons to Keppinger (way past his prime, if he ever had one, which he didn't - that was Joe Maddon using him brilliantly), Belisario (not a top end reliever), and the scrap heap are misguided, imo. As it is, the so got 3 keeper players last year off the scrapheap - Putnam, Guerra, and Noesi. Not great, but replacement level. (a healthy Jones would have helped immensely last year). Wish we had had replacement level at LF, 2B, and 3rd and 4th starter last year.

As for DH, I'd go fishing again - vic for Dom Brown - until there is more out there or more foundation laid. Remember, teams like the Giants and Red sox have frequently traded prospects who turn up aces - thing is, they have a pipeline that produces 5 more prospects to deal when that happens.

Edited November 5, 2014 by GreenSox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

But neither of those two just maxed themselves out for the next several years by committing to declining veterans.

 

Like I said somewhere recently (maybe earlier in this thread), it makes some sense to be a .500-ish team, but only if you can SUSTAIN it. You can't sustain it by pushing all in on a crap hand. Maybe you get the shot in the dark for a year, but guess what happens next? Rebuild.

 

Hahn, like so many others right now, is aiming for this to be the final rebuild. I don't know if it's possible, but the idea is to take lumps now to put together something that can be reasonably competitive every year. Pushing all in on Victor Martinez, Melky Cabrera, a reclamation project starter, and a couple overpaid relievers at this point feels like taking a half court shot in 2015 at the cost of not having a prayer for the next three or four years.

Wow you sign all those guys and they ALL tank to the point of sucking for the next 3 or 4 years when the Sox have Rodon Montas Danish Basitt , Micah Johnson, Semien on the horizon ?

Edited November 5, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Dick Allen]

Yes, according to Forbes the White Sox lost money in 2013. But JR has had his minions tell us they only strive to break even every year. If that is truly the case, they have some catching up to do. The last time they lost money in a season was 2001, since then, according to Forbes, they have pulled a $189 million profit.

 

Can we quit the crying poor for the White Sox? They have even trained the media into thinking they are broke. Remember when they signed Dunn? Paulie and AJ were out the door, until they weren't. JR was asked, "where did you get the money?" "You save a little here, save a little there" that was the response.

 

There is plenty of money. Dumpster diving gets you Felipe Paulino. Get some real players.

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

I say probably over .500 because I don't like making definitive statemenrts like I know that it will actually happen . I could've phrased it " we WiLL be 10 games above .500 but I'm just taking my best guess here. Who the hell knows what would happen but I'd rather take the shot at it in a yr where our 1st round pick is protected and we have the payroll space to take advantage of that.

I think you're exactly right, that team is probably over .500, but if a few things are iffy it could still be well under .500.

 

Hence my problem with spending big on VMart while still being cheap elsewhere.

 

if you're going to sign Victor Martinez, you're making an all-in move. Stop fiddling around and commit to it. Victor Martinez and a couple relievers makes us a "maybe over .500 team", but add in a top flight RF and now we're talking about a team well over .500. Tim Anderson + Montas is probably a good start on the way to making that happen, that ought to clear someone loose, maybe even one of the guys from the Braves.

 

If you're not ready to trade the guys we have on their way to AA not named Rodon (fine, he's too pricey even for me to move), then you're not ready to sign Victor Martinez.

[Dick Allen]

MLB free agency sucks. Most of these guys won't sign for another month or longer. I love it in the other leagues with the salary caps. It a mad dash to sign someone and for the players to sign before teams become capped.

[Bob Sacamano]

I'm on the side that says trade for Heyward, but would request a 72-hour window to work out an extension. Trade Hawkins, one of Danish/Montas, and then whatever else needed to make it happen.

[Lillian]

For those of you who advocate not spending big now, but rather continuing to rebuild, with an eye toward 2016, exactly what would you do?

Who would you try to acquire now?

Who would you target for 2016?

[LDF]

Yes, according to Forbes the White Sox lost money in 2013. But JR has had his minions tell us they only strive to break even every year. If that is truly the case, they have some catching up to do. The last time they lost money in a season was 2001, since then, according to Forbes, they have pulled a $189 million profit.

 

Can we quit the crying poor for the White Sox? They have even trained the media into thinking they are broke. Remember when they signed Dunn? Paulie and AJ were out the door, until they weren't. JR was asked, "where did you get the money?" "You save a little here, save a little there" that was the response.

 

There is plenty of money. Dumpster diving gets you Felipe Paulino. Get some real players.

 

JR is smart, they have this profit / lose marginal for every yr of that

yr expenses and profit. yeah, he may have lost for 2013 but no one

factoring the profits the other yr. nor are they factoring other profits

that is not listed that is associated with the running of the org.

 

being smart and taking a smart gamble can get the sox a player

like Hector Noesi and looses like Paulino.

 

Dumpster diving...... i love it.

 

the sox did not become a 2 billion org for nothing.

[Balta1701]

For those of you who advocate not spending big now, but rather continuing to rebuild, with an eye toward 2016, exactly what would you do?

Who would you try to acquire now?

Who would you target for 2016?

With the way my roster is, I'm playing too many rookies and inconsistent performers to count on competing this year even if I spend big money. if I'm not willing to trade the chips I have at AA, I go for the moderate-level pieces in FA, try to fill the holes I have with warm bodies such that I can either get really lucky and make a playoff push or I can trade the ones I do have, see if I can get a bad contract swap with Viciedo before Dec. 2, and leave myself payroll flexibility to target Hayward or Upton for that OF slot next year when guys like Rodon, Semien, and the bullpen pieces I'm still assembling are no longer rookies.

 

Either pick that option or hit the trade market hard. Don't play the in-between game, either go all in on winning right now or go all in on playing for time.

[Dick Allen]

JR is smart, they have this profit / lose marginal for every yr of that

yr expenses and profit. yeah, he may have lost for 2013 but no one

factoring the profits the other yr. nor are they factoring other profits

that is not listed that is associated with the running of the org.

 

being smart and taking a smart gamble can get the sox a player

like Hector Noesi and looses like Paulino.

 

Dumpster diving...... i love it.

 

the sox did not become a 2 billion org for nothing.

I am one of the few who is not sold on Noesi.

[Balta1701]

I am one of the few who is not sold on Noesi.

So you think we need 1.5 starting pitchers to compete and you're still wanting us to spend $15 million on a DH?

[Dick Allen]

So you think we need 1.5 starting pitchers to compete and you're still wanting us to spend $15 million on a DH?

Absolutely. Fix the bullpen, sign a 4 or 5 starter and Victor. Look to make a trade for a corner OF, and if the better players stay healthy, the team is way more than competive.

 

Hahn is going for it. It was in his quotes at the end of the year. He doesn't want to waste Sale, Q and Abreu any longer.

 

He moved away from the acquiring pieces that had to be part of their long term core line.

 

If Hector Noesi is the difference from fielding a competive team and a non competitive team, there isn't a MLB team that is not competitive.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

I think you're exactly right, that team is probably over .500, but if a few things are iffy it could still be well under .500.

 

Hence my problem with spending big on VMart while still being cheap elsewhere.

 

if you're going to sign Victor Martinez, you're making an all-in move. Stop fiddling around and commit to it. Victor Martinez and a couple relievers makes us a "maybe over .500 team", but add in a top flight RF and now we're talking about a team well over .500. Tim Anderson + Montas is probably a good start on the way to making that happen, that ought to clear someone loose, maybe even one of the guys from the Braves.

 

If you're not ready to trade the guys we have on their way to AA not named Rodon (fine, he's too pricey even for me to move), then you're not ready to sign Victor Martinez.

 

while i do respect the logic on VMart, and remember i was talking him

up toward the end of the season, the sox should not go all in for several

players. it reminds me of the Yanks of the 90's when they thought they

could buy all there players and win the world series every yr. they

didn't and there payroll was like 160+ million.

 

spend smartly and fill up the holes.

[LDF]

I am one of the few who is not sold on Noesi.

 

i respect that. but you can not deny his limited success

he had last yr. remember he was a waiver pick up.

[Eminor3rd]

Yes, according to Forbes the White Sox lost money in 2013. But JR has had his minions tell us they only strive to break even every year. If that is truly the case, they have some catching up to do. The last time they lost money in a season was 2001, since then, according to Forbes, they have pulled a $189 million profit.

 

Can we quit the crying poor for the White Sox? They have even trained the media into thinking they are broke. Remember when they signed Dunn? Paulie and AJ were out the door, until they weren't. JR was asked, "where did you get the money?" "You save a little here, save a little there" that was the response.

 

This refrain continues to make no sense. It does NOT matter how much money JR has. It does NOT matter how much you think he should spend.

 

There is a ceiling to the amount of money that the Sox will spend on payroll. This is a fact. You must let that sink in.

 

It has never been higher than about $125m, and every single time it crests, it falls by $20-30m the next season. The reality is that if you commit to bringing it up there, you'd better be happy with the team you have, because if it isn't good enough, money isn't going to magically appear to patch it up. And the problem with free agents is that they are nearly ALWAYS diminishing assets. Their rate of decay varies, but they are always most valuable on day one.

 

Again, no one is afraid of spending the money, but everyone is afraid of impatience leading to four more s***ty years. All signs point to spending the big dollars when you need the benefit immediately.

 

There is plenty of money. Dumpster diving gets you Felipe Paulino. Get some real players.

 

Hahn is "getting some real players." He just isn't using free agency. And since he isn't using free agency, he has short-term dollars left over, that he uses on lottery tickets like Felipe Paulino. It is erroneous to view Felipe Paulino and his ilk as an alternative to a high end free agent. Rather, Felipe Paulino is just gravy that is thrown on top of a completely different acquisition model.

 

We are better for taking gambles on Felipe Paulino, but that is a completely unrelated thing to taking gambles on Victor Martinez.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Eminor3rd]

JR is smart, they have this profit / lose marginal for every yr of that

yr expenses and profit. yeah, he may have lost for 2013 but no one

factoring the profits the other yr. nor are they factoring other profits

that is not listed that is associated with the running of the org.

 

being smart and taking a smart gamble can get the sox a player

like Hector Noesi and looses like Paulino.

 

Dumpster diving...... i love it.

 

the sox did not become a 2 billion org for nothing.

 

Well said.

[harfman77]

But neither of those two just maxed themselves out for the next several years by committing to declining veterans.

 

Like I said somewhere recently (maybe earlier in this thread), it makes some sense to be a .500-ish team, but only if you can SUSTAIN it. You can't sustain it by pushing all in on a crap hand. Maybe you get the shot in the dark for a year, but guess what happens next? Rebuild.

 

Hahn, like so many others right now, is aiming for this to be the final rebuild. I don't know if it's possible, but the idea is to take lumps now to put together something that can be reasonably competitive every year. Pushing all in on Victor Martinez, Melky Cabrera, a reclamation project starter, and a couple overpaid relievers at this point feels like taking a half court shot in 2015 at the cost of not having a prayer for the next three or four years.

 

I am 100% on board with not commiting resources to assets that are likely to decline. I think the Sox are much better positioned to use some of the farm system depth and payroll space to add assets than to invest heavily in free agency. I think they can acquire CarGo without decimating the farm due to his salary commitment and he is near is peak.

 

As I said earlier in this thread, I think players need to be acquired that will continue to grow with the core of players that is being assembled. I have said many times that I really want the Sox to be agressive in pursuing Jose Fernandez as a 26 year old second basemen that has exceptional bat to ball skills.

 

CF Eaton FA- 2019

SS Ramirez FA - 2017

RF CarGo FA - 2018

1B Abreu FA - 2020

2B Fernandez FA - 2021

LF Garcia/Shuck/Viciedo FA - 2020

3B Gillaspie FA - 2019

DH Viciedo/Garcia/Semien/Wilkins/CarGo FA - 2018

C Flowers FA -2018

 

UTL Semien

OF Shuck/Danks

1B Wilkins

C Phegley

 

Its not murderers row, but it is good enough to contend. Hopefully Davidson can rebound and become a platoon mate for Gillaspie and add a little more flexibility to the lineup. Make a run at trying to bring McCarthy back and piece together a bullpen and the team has a shot.

[LDF]

Well said.

 

Dumpster diving.

 

yeah isn't that a kool phrase. i love it.

[southsider2k5]

If we are really talking about Martinez, I would rather give me a big overpay for one year (say $20 million+) versus giving him a 4 year deal.