Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[witesoxfan]

Robertson's already guaranteed $15.3 million. He's unlikely to get any $36 million/3 year deals, so he ends up staying in NYC...

 

He's guaranteed $15.3 mill for one year. A 3/$30 million guarantees him $30 million. If he goes out and gets hurt in year one, he's back to taking flyer contracts and he could easily go out the way of Andrew Bailey. If he doesn't take a multi-year offer worth less than $15.3 million AAV, I'd be incredibly surprised.

 

If we're bringing in $2-5 million reclamation starting pitchers, Dick Allen will have his own website. They would be better off going with Noesi and Bassitt in that case, unless Don Cooper really knows something nobody else does....never mind.

 

There's nothing wrong with bringing in guys like Mitchell Boggs and Felipe Paulino, and if they fail, you release them and move on. I would much prefer that than bringing in Scott Feldman or Jason Hammel on multi-year deals at this point.

 

And why are we adding a 4th outfielder when we don't even have a 3rd one? Sounds like you want Aoki, Denorfia or perhaps DeAza again.

 

Currently, the White Sox have Viciedo, Eaton, and Garcia. Perhaps that 4th outfielder is Jordan Danks, perhaps it's Aoki. My point being that I'd like to see them bring in another outfielder. Label him what you want beyond that.

[Dick Allen]

You are insulting ALL of our intelligence(s?) by pretending to be dense about this.

 

Also note the word "nearly" in what you quoted above. Abreu is clearly a special case to everyone here, and you know it, so you can stop pretending I painted myself into some corner that you made up.

Made up?

 

Here's what you wrote again:

 

but they are always most valuable on day one.

 

I will give you a break. Your boy Keith Law did say it was a bonehead move by the White Sox. By the time they are any good, he will be in freefall.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2014 by Dick Allen

[witesoxfan]

Made up?

 

Here's what you wrote again:

 

but they are always most valuable on day one.

 

I think "always" is the wrong word to use in this situation, as there are always exceptions - guys like Jose Abreu and Jermaine Dye come to mind immediately. Still, I think you know what he meant. We don't need to play this semantics game. It's a good and valuable discussion and I don't want to see it degrade into a pissing match.

[Steve9347]

Soxtalk remains split. A true battle!

[Dick Allen]

Soxtalk remains split. A true battle!

I will say this, if Victor signs with someone else, I hope he sucks even worse than the posters who don't want him think he will.

[caulfield12]

I think "always" is the wrong word to use in this situation, as there are always exceptions - guys like Jose Abreu and Jermaine Dye come to mind immediately. Still, I think you know what he meant. We don't need to play this semantics game. It's a good and valuable discussion and I don't want to see it degrade into a pissing match.

 

Alexei Ramirez also comes to mind.

 

 

 

 

[caulfield12]

I will say this, if Victor signs with someone else, I hope he sucks even worse than the posters who don't want him think he will.

 

Didn't we all say basically the same thing about Ubaldo Jimenez and Beckham last year at this time?

[witesoxfan]

Alexei Ramirez also comes to mind.

 

Yep, that's another good one, but that one is also an indication that maybe the Sox should look for guys on lower value contracts. It's hard for guys who receive large contracts to live up to their billing, but easier when they are cheaper and there's also more room for growth. Maybe you sign a guy to a 3 year, $21 million and he outperforms that contract by quite a bit.

 

If the Sox sign Victor Martinez to a 4 year, $72 million deal, he has to perform very, very well to live up to that contract. Even a standard .300/.375/.475 year for Victor Martinez really kind of puts the Sox in a tough spot because they are still out at least one outfielder, a slough of problems in the bullpen, and less money to try and fix those. Meanwhile, LaRoche is going to cost much less with much less long-term committment and he could put up a very good season for the Sox as well.

[Eminor3rd]

Made up?

 

Here's what you wrote again:

 

but they are always most valuable on day one.

 

I will give you a break. Your boy Keith Law did say it was a bonehead move by the White Sox. By the time they are any good, he will be in freefall.

 

Victor Martinez is what we would consider a "typical free agent," in that he is an MLB player that has been around for a while and is now free to sign with other teams.

 

Jose Abreu, on the other hand, is what we would consider an "exceptional free agent," in that he entered our market by illegally fleeing his country, thus bringing circumstances into the fray that are both unusual and thus not normally applicable to the tendencies of free agency.

 

An observant fan might notice that the discussion we're having in this thread is in regards to Victor Martinez. A good indicator is the presence of his name in the thread title. Those in this thread read my post and understood that I was referring to "typical free agents" like Victor Martinez. It's okay that you didn't -- English is a terribly subtle language and, along with any written form of communication, words often contain "implied meanings." it's easy to get confused.

 

In summary:

 

Jose Abreu = upside, long-term contribution, chance to be underpaid

Victor Martinez = no upside, short-term contribution, almost definitely overpaid

 

Therefore, signing Jose Abreu is not similar to signing Victor Martinez, and so assuming that the the results of the former signing will apply to the latter merely by virtue of similarity would represent a logical fallacy.

 

Does that make sense? Or were there any ambiguous words in there that you can misconstrue so that you can keep trying to "win the argument" the same way Ryan Braun "won" his PED case?

[Chisoxfn]

Stay Civil Here.

[harfman77]

Jose Fernandez doesn't make a lot of sense because he ALSO isn't a very good defender and he's playing a position where we have three potential options (Semien/Sanchez, eventually Micah Johnson)...

 

If we're going to upgrade, it has to be at C, 3B, LF and DH.

 

I've read a number of threads and there's almost no mention of what Flowers is going to do next year...more of the focus has been on improving the 3B situation or whether Garcia will be a 2-3 WAR guy despite his defense and whether Eaton will/can stay healthy.

 

I think Balta's right that there are just too many holes to fill that can't be filled (because it's cutting down the remaining money left considerably) by signing Victor Martinez.

 

Let's say you have $15-20 million more to spend after signing Martinez (that wouldn't even get you ONE season of Robertson now). So I'll go back to my V. Martinez, Rasmus AND Brett Anderson or Sergio Romo example.

 

Most here would say even if you added ALL FOUR of those players, you wouldn't have a surefire contender. All past evidence points to the White Sox adding AT MOST three pretty high level free agents. I'll substitute Edinson Volquez for Anderson and now we're close to $35 million again with Victor, Rasmus and Volquez and we STILL would begin the 2015 season with Danks/Noesi/Bassitt at the back end until Rodon came up....which might get us buried early. We STILL wouldn't have done anything to improve the bullpen. If you DON'T add a starter, you're stuck with the worst 3-5 rotation in baseball again.

 

You're adding four players with LOTS of question marks. I honestly don't think there's a single player on the market right now 75% of the posters would be happy if we bought them on the free agency market because of the dollar figures/years.

 

 

Ethier (subtract Danks and add $3.5 million, now no need for Rasmus)

OR

trade Danish, Montas and Hawkins for Heyward (which nobody will be in favor of)

 

Victor Martinez +$17.5 million

 

Then we'd have to add at least one veteran "second tier" starter to the rotation, let's say Volquez

+$9 million

 

Then you have $10 million left for one really good bullpen piece or two Luke Hochevars that are more speculative

 

 

Eaton

Ethier

Abreu

V.Martinez

A.Garcia

Conor Gillaspie/Semien

Alexei Ramirez

Flowers

Semien/Sanchez (eventually Micah Johnson)

 

That line-up STILL feels ONE player short, with quite a few question marks 5-9 IMO.

 

Sale

Quintana

Volquez

Noesi

Bassitt/Beck/Carroll

 

becoming

 

Sale

Quintana

Volquez

Rodon

Noesi

 

with Bassitt, Beck and Montas figuring into the bullpen puzzle, along with the $10 million you spent on a closer or two high quality set-up guys

 

I disagree. The chance to add an elite bat without having to give up anything other than money makes a lot of sense. It also allows Hahn to use assets like Johnson and Sanchez to upgrade other areas of the team. A deal like M. Johnson, Beck, and Hawkins for CarGo would greatly improve the OF defense while also adding a legitimate bat to the lineup.

 

Eaton

Ramirez

CarGo

Abreu

Fernandez

Garcia

Gillaspie

Viciedo

Flowers

 

UTL Semien

OF Danks/Shuck

1B Wilkins

C Phegley

 

SP Sale

SP Quintana

SP McCarthy/Other FA

SP Danks

SP Noesi

 

RP Petricka

RP Guerra

RP Bassit

RP Putnam

RP Webb

RP Franklin Morales

RP Joe Thatcher

[LDF]

I disagree. The chance to add an elite bat without having to give up anything other than money makes a lot of sense. It also allows Hahn to use assets like Johnson and Sanchez to upgrade other areas of the team. A deal like M. Johnson, Beck, and Hawkins for CarGo would greatly improve the OF defense while also adding a legitimate bat to the lineup.

 

Eaton

Ramirez

CarGo

Abreu

Fernandez

Garcia

Gillaspie

Viciedo

Flowers

 

UTL Semien

OF Danks/Shuck

1B Wilkins

C Phegley

 

SP Sale

SP Quintana

SP McCarthy/Other FA

SP Danks

SP Noesi

 

RP Petricka

RP Guerra

RP Bassit

RP Putnam

RP Webb

RP Franklin Morales

RP Joe Thatcher

 

ok it is my turn..... ref m johnson. i am greedy here and will say no

to trading m johnson

[greg775]

I am one of the few who is not sold on Noesi.

I'm not sold on him either.

As far as Victor, aren't we arguing a moot point? Has there been any shred of evidence the Sox would pay that kind of money after the Dunn fiasco? Any credible media mentions at all?

[shysocks]

I'm not sold on him either.

As far as Victor, aren't we arguing a moot point? Has there been any shred of evidence the Sox would pay that kind of money after the Dunn fiasco? Any credible media mentions at all?

Depends, of course, on your definition of credible. This is sort of the first mention.

 

According to a major league source, Martinez for all the reasons mentioned above will be at the top of the White Sox list of free agents they target this fall. Along with Chicago and Detroit, Seattle and Kansas City will likely be in pursuit of this exceptional competitor.

[GreenSox]

Jose Abreu, on the other hand, is what we would consider an "exceptional free agent," in that he entered our market by illegally fleeing his country, thus bringing circumstances into the fray that are both unusual and thus not normally applicable to the tendencies of free agency.

There's retrospect to that. No one really knew what he would do in the majors. Today, he'd get twice his salary.

 

A deal like M. Johnson, Beck, and Hawkins for CarGo would greatly improve the OF defense while also adding a legitimate bat to the lineup.

At an extremely high salary and for 3 of our top 10 prospects as you posit it.

And his bat wasn't elite last year; he was also injured.

Edited November 5, 2014 by GreenSox

[Eminor3rd]

There's retrospect to that. No one really knew what he would do in the majors. Today, he'd get twice his salary.

 

But that's a major part of what made it a worthwhile gamble, the discount you got by taking the risk. Such is not the case under normal circumstances. Retrospect shows that it paid off, but it was a good gamble before we knew that.

[BlackSox13]

At an extremely high salary and for 3 of our top 10 prospects as you posit it.

And his bat wasn't elite last year; he was also injured.

Agreed. I cannot believe I'm going to say this but I'd rather have Rasmus since the production is similar and Rasmus can be had for a cheaper salary and will not require the Sox to trade any young talent. IMO, the proposed offer for CarGo is a huge over pay.

 

 

 

 

[oldsox]

Agreed. I cannot believe I'm going to say this but I'd rather have Rasmus since the production is similar and Rasmus can be had for a cheaper salary and will not require the Sox to trade any young talent. IMO, the proposed offer for CarGo is a huge over pay.

Rasmus cannot carry Cargo's jockstrap.

[LDF]

Agreed. I cannot believe I'm going to say this but I'd rather have Rasmus since the production is similar and Rasmus can be had for a cheaper salary and will not require the Sox to trade any young talent. IMO, the proposed offer for CarGo is a huge over pay.

 

this is a perfect example on how posters can chg their opinions.

 

last week and before there would have been me say no freaking way for

Rasmus playing for the sox. now, as some posters are saying, the sox

need an upgrade so to speak. Rasmus does provide that bat, speed and

in some ways Defense. he can be a good catch. but I sure hell hate his

freaking baggage.

 

[BlackSox13]

Rasmus cannot carry Cargo's jockstrap.

I am blown away by your amazing insight. Thank you for your contribution...

 

this is a perfect example on how posters can chg their opinions.

 

last week and before there would have been me say no freaking way for

Rasmus playing for the sox. now, as some posters are saying, the sox

need an upgrade so to speak. Rasmus does provide that bat, speed and

in some ways Defense. he can be a good catch. but I sure hell hate his

freaking baggage.

I agree. I like Rasmus power, LH bat and also think he could play a solid LF, at least better than what we've had anyway. He's not the best option but not the worst and like I said, he won't cost the Sox anything but salary and that salary will be cheaper than CarGo's contract. I don't think some folks realize CarGo's splits, injury history and horrible salary.

[BlackSox13]

I am confused why people were so inspired by Andy Wilkins that they are penciling him into the 2015 roster.

Hmmm, wish I had an answer for you but I'm equally confused. Wilkins showed nothing during September so I really don't get it.

 

Just realized I drifted off topic in my last few posts so I'll keep any further comments about VMart.

[Dam8610]

For those of you who advocate not spending big now, but rather continuing to rebuild, with an eye toward 2016, exactly what would you do?

Who would you try to acquire now?

Who would you target for 2016?

 

Glad you asked

 

Q1) What would you do?

 

A1) I would target players who didn't get QOs and try to get 75% or so of the value of the players who did get QOs with 50% or less of the per year money, and 25-35% of the overall contract commitment. In doing so, I also give myself another full year of building the farm system as I don't lose my second round pick and the related slot allocation from my bonus pool.

 

Q2) Who would you try to acquire?

 

A2) Markakis, Headley, LaRoche, McCarthy, Billingsley, Miller, Duke, and Hochevar are examples of players I would target. None have a QO, and all could make impact contributions in 2015 and 2016.

 

Q3) Who would you target in 2016?

 

A3) A lot of that would depend on how the 2015 season worked out, but likely a premium hitter, maybe two, possibly a pen arm, and defense. That is, provided, of course, that I got at least one hitter, one 3-4 level starter, and at least two pen arms this off-season.

[LDF]

Glad you asked

 

Q1) What would you do?

 

A1) I would target players who didn't get QOs and try to get 75% or so of the value of the players who did get QOs with 50% or less of the per year money, and 25-35% of the overall contract commitment. In doing so, I also give myself another full year of building the farm system as I don't lose my second round pick and the related slot allocation from my bonus pool.

 

Q2) Who would you try to acquire?

 

A2) Markakis, Headley, LaRoche, McCarthy, Billingsley, Miller, Duke, and Hochevar are examples of players I would target. None have a QO, and all could make impact contributions in 2015 and 2016.

 

Q3) Who would you target in 2016?

 

A3) A lot of that would depend on how the 2015 season worked out, but likely a premium hitter, maybe two, possibly a pen arm, and defense. That is, provided, of course, that I got at least one hitter, one 3-4 level starter, and at least two pen arms this off-season.

 

I think the site is still battling on who to target this offseason.

[caulfield12]

Here's another hypothetical:

 

Trade Danks for Ethier/Edwin Jackson/Josh Hamilton

 

vs.

 

Trade some package of prospects not named Anderson and of course Rodon (let's say Montas, Hawkins and Semien/Sanchez)

for CarGO

 

I don't think anyone's (except the poster on this thread page) going to give up that talent and take on another possibly corrosive contract...just way too much risk. We did it with Thome, but that was with a rather large subsidy attached to make the financials work. The Rockies are going to be more desperate to unload him with so many outfielders, especially if they're serious about keeping Tulowitzki).

 

 

Then you have that other batch: Nelson Cruz, Rasmus, Markakis, Torii Hunter, Michael Morse and Melky Cabrera

 

All six of those guys have HUGE HUGE red flags that you could point to and say why signing them would be disasters.

 

Of course, that's why GM's are paid the amount they are. To assess that risk and pull the trigger...so far, with the exception of Abreu and Eaton, Hahn has been very conservative and risk-averse. Maybe not this offseason, but heading into 2016 (just like the Cubs' situation going into 2016 for Theo) he's going to have to put his job on the line.

[Dam8610]

I think the site is still battling on who to target this offseason.

 

Yes, but I was asked rationally to defend my position, so I figured I'd oblige. Really this year should still be about finding value, while next year could bring splash moves and contention. That's just my opinion, of course.