Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[Dick Allen]

And 35-year old 125 wRC+ DHs get like 2yr/$24m. If that's where we are, then it's a different discussion.

 

Before last year, Victor Martinez's career, offensively, spanned from 86 wRC+ to 130 wRC+. Last year, he put up 166 wRC+. That's SO much better. Even if you ignore the possibility of age-related decline, you have got to be suspicious at a guy who suddenly hits 40% better after 12 years of remarkably consistent performance.

 

So when you say it's "worth the risk," I really don't understand. I mean EVERY free agent presents a risk, I'd argue that if one was worth the risk, it wouldn't be one that DOESN'T have so many obvious signs that his performance was flukey. I'm not saying we all wouldn't like 2014 VMart in our lineup, but that's just not what is going to happen if we sign him.

 

It's the same thing with Shields. They've been awesome, but we can't afford to push the chips in on guys that are obviously riskier than the others.

 

He was awful the first 2 months on 2013 after missing 2012. He hit .361/.413/.500 the second half of 2013. I think he is a good bet to put up a 125 or higherwRC+ the next couple of years. Signing guys like Butler is being cheap which often gets expensive.

 

 

[Balta1701]

He was awful the first 2 months on 2013 after missing 2012. He hit .361/.413/.500 the second half of 2013. I think he is a good bet to put up a 125 or higherwRC+ the next couple of years. Signing guys like Butler is being cheap which often gets expensive.

This certainly hasn't been the White Sox's problem the last 5+ years, it's been expensive guys who don't perform.

[Dick Allen]

This certainly hasn't been the White Sox's problem the last 5+ years, it's been expensive guys who don't perform.

They have had a lot of guys not perform. Keppinger, Downs, Belisario, and Paulino was a total waste of about $22 million.

[Balta1701]

They have had a lot of guys not perform. Keppinger, Downs, Belisario, and Paulino was a total waste of about $22 million.

But out of those, only 2 of them were what you just said was the waste of money - trying to be cheap. Keppinger was bought coming off a career year under the assumption that guys who don't strike out a lot don't fall off a cliff in their 30s (where have I heard that recently)?. Downs was a veteran brought in for fair money under the assumption that guys in their late 30s don't fall off a cliff when they have certain projectable skills. Both of those guys were guys brought in at fair market value to fill an immediate need.

 

Belisario and Paulino was trying to be cheap and bring in guys who could improve, and yes, they did not work, while on the other hand Putnam and Noesi did.

 

And just to note, out of the 4 guys you listed, the majority of the money was taken up by the veteran guys brought in for fair market value to be immediate contributors.

[Dick Allen]

But out of those, only 2 of them were what you just said was the waste of money - trying to be cheap. Keppinger was bought coming off a career year under the assumption that guys who don't strike out a lot don't fall off a cliff in their 30s (where have I heard that recently)?. Downs was a veteran brought in for fair money under the assumption that guys in their late 30s don't fall off a cliff when they have certain projectable skills. Both of those guys were guys brought in at fair market value to fill an immediate need.

 

Belisario and Paulino was trying to be cheap and bring in guys who could improve, and yes, they did not work, while on the other hand Putnam and Noesi did.

 

And just to note, out of the 4 guys you listed, the majority of the money was taken up by the veteran guys brought in for fair market value to be immediate contributors.

Signing cheaper players who were injured or released is often being cheap. I don't think they are thinking cheap this offseason.

I will put it another way. Signing Victor is an effort to win. Signing someone like Butler who will no be cheap but cheaper I MO would be the proverbial spending money to spend money. Butler isn't going to help the White Sox win.

Edited November 2, 2014 by Dick Allen

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

No thanks to Victor. If the Sox were a bat short of contention, then yes but they have too many holes to fill.

So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, injuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you skimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt.

Edited November 2, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Balta1701]

Signing cheaper players who were injured or released is often being cheap. I don't think they are thinking cheap this offseason.

I will put it another way. Signing Victor is an effort to win. Signing someone like Butler who will no be cheap but cheaper I MO would be the proverbial spending money to spend money. Butler isn't going to help the White Sox win.

You're right with the bolded.

 

Neither Jeff Keppinger nor Scott Downs were those. Both of them were free agents in their 30s, not guys who were released, but instead guys whose contracts were up and who were paid market value.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm not really interested in any deal with Martinez. On a 2 year deal: I wouldn't want the Sox to give up draft compensation for a player only with us for two years. Also, I don't think the White Sox will be ready to really compete until 2016. 3 or 4 year deal: Too much for a 36 year old DH coming off his best season. Luckily, I am pretty sure the White Sox front office agrees with me. Like I've said, I'll be shocked if they get Martinez.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

But out of those, only 2 of them were what you just said was the waste of money - trying to be cheap. Keppinger was bought coming off a career year under the assumption that guys who don't strike out a lot don't fall off a cliff in their 30s (where have I heard that recently)?. Downs was a veteran brought in for fair money under the assumption that guys in their late 30s don't fall off a cliff when they have certain projectable skills. Both of those guys were guys brought in at fair market value to fill an immediate need.

 

Belisario and Paulino was trying to be cheap and bring in guys who could improve, and yes, they did not work, while on the other hand Putnam and Noesi did.

 

And just to note, out of the 4 guys you listed, the majority of the money was taken up by the veteran guys brought in for fair market value to be immediate contributors.

No , do not say VMart and Keppinger in the same sentence. It's so easy to say no with the age factor but I dare you to find me someone affordable ( your sure thing LH LF ) without a recent bad year, bad defense , bad injury history, PED suspension or no power who is available.

[Balta1701]

So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, injuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you skimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt.

So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't.

 

If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me.

[southsider2k5]

They have had a lot of guys not perform. Keppinger, Downs, Belisario, and Paulino was a total waste of about $22 million.

 

Martinez alone would be somewhere around triple that amount.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I would love to have V-Mart, but I'd want to make sure him and Sale are good before I invite that situation in to my lockerroom.

[BlackSox13]

So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, inuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you smkimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt.

Victor alone does not make the Sox a contender and that's my point. Victor's annual salary could buy the Sox three good bullpen arms that, IMO, will do more for the Sox in 2015 than one aging Victor Martinez. Another way to look at it is Victor's salary could buy the Sox Chase Headley and one good arm for a bullpen that desperately needs attention. Now the Sox have upgraded the lineup, the defense and the bullpen.

 

I'd much prefer to fill the holes with overall good quality than fill one hole with perceived great quality and skimp on the other holes.

 

Besides. I like the idea of 4 rotating outfielders through the DH position to keep legs fresh and a 36 year old VMart does not fit the mold.

 

I also doubt very seriously that VMart would perform up to the value of his contract. A 36 year old is going to get paid based on his past performance and not his future performance.

 

Just my two cents and opinion is all.

[Balta1701]

Victor alone does not make the Sox a contender and that's my point. Victor's annual salary could buy the Sox three good bullpen arms that, IMO, will do more for the Sox in 2015 than one aging Victor Martinez. Another way to look at it is Victor's salary could buy the Sox Chase Headley and one good arm for a bullpen that desperately needs attention. Now the Sox have upgraded the lineup, the defense and the bullpen.

 

I'd much prefer to fill the holes with overall good quality than fill one hole with perceived great quality and skimp on the other holes.

 

Besides. I like the idea of 4 rotating outfielders through the DH position to keep legs fresh and a 36 year old VMart does not fit the mold.

 

I also doubt very seriously that VMart would perform up to the value of his contract. A 36 year old is going to get paid based on his past performance and not his future performance.

 

Just my two cents and opinion is all.

Although I don't like the Martinez option...I'd very much prefer Martinez to Headley (and I think Headley is going to get a lot more than Martinez).

[BlackSox13]

Although I don't like the Martinez option...I'd very much prefer Martinez to Headley (and I think Headley is going to get a lot more than Martinez).

I thought VMart was speculated to get 18-20M annually and Headley 12-15M annually? Or has that changed?

[LDF]

And 35-year old 125 wRC+ DHs get like 2yr/$24m. If that's where we are, then it's a different discussion.

 

Before last year, Victor Martinez's career, offensively, spanned from 86 wRC+ to 130 wRC+. Last year, he put up 166 wRC+. That's SO much better. Even if you ignore the possibility of age-related decline, you have got to be suspicious at a guy who suddenly hits 40% better after 12 years of remarkably consistent performance.

 

So when you say it's "worth the risk," I really don't understand. I mean EVERY free agent presents a risk, I'd argue that if one was worth the risk, it wouldn't be one that DOESN'T have so many obvious signs that his performance was flukey. I'm not saying we all wouldn't like 2014 VMart in our lineup, but that's just not what is going to happen if we sign him.

 

It's the same thing with Shields. They've been awesome, but we can't afford to push the chips in on guys that are obviously riskier than the others.

 

I am NOT saying that he took and special vitamins, but all he needed to do is take it

last yr so he can max out his contract. after that is done, he doesn't take it again.

"oh well his age took over for his lower offensive stats"

[Balta1701]

I thought VMart was speculated to get 18-20M annually and Headley 12-15M annually? Or has that changed?

I'd expect Martinez to push for something in the range of 4/$60 (maybe not getting it?) and Headley to push 5/$75, maybe more.

 

The Yankees are supposed to be in on Headley, so it's going to cost a fortune to "outbid" for his services.

[LDF]

I thought VMart was speculated to get 18-20M annually and Headley 12-15M annually? Or has that changed?

 

I think this number is what I heard as well

[BlackSox13]

I'd expect Martinez to push for something in the range of 4/$60 (maybe not getting it?) and Headley to push 5/$75, maybe more.

 

The Yankees are supposed to be in on Headley, so it's going to cost a fortune to "outbid" for his services.

OK, so the annual salary will be pretty close. Between the two, I'd still go with Headley since he upgrades 3B as well, plus the Sox do not give up draft compensation to a division rival. Not sure why I was thinking VMart would cost in the 18-20M per year range.

 

The Yanks have ARod coming back so I'm not sure about the level of interest the Yanks have.

Edited November 2, 2014 by StRoostifer

[BlackSox13]

I think this number is what I heard as well

I'm trying to figure out where I pulled that number from. Maybe me arse? Lol

[Balta1701]

OK, so the annual salary will be pretty close. Between the two, I'd still go with Headley since he upgrades 3B as well, plus the Sox do not give up draft compensation to a division rival. Not sure why I was thinking VMart would cost in the 18-20M per year range.

 

The Yanks have ARod coming back so I'm not sure about the level of interest the Yanks have.

Local and national news suggested the Yanks interest in Headley is serious and they're probably either expecting Aroid to be terrible or pushed to DH.

[LDF]

I'm trying to figure out where I pulled that number from. Maybe me arse? Lol

 

I really heard 15+ and that is why he will not accept less in yrs.

[Lillian]

One of the intangible benefits of signing Victor, is that it breaks up the Tigers' potent middle of the order.

There isn't another left handed hitter whom Detroit could acquire to replace him.

Meanwhile, of course the Sox would then have arguably the best 3, 4 hitters in the League.

 

I suggested earlier that the Sox could acquire a good defensive left fielder, with speed, to fill that hole.

It makes even better sense to get a RF who profiles like that, and move A. Garcia to LF.

Tank could be traded for something like a bull pen arm.

[BlackSox13]

Local and national news suggested the Yanks interest in Headley is serious and they're probably either expecting Aroid to be terrible or pushed to DH.

Damn, that kinda sucks. Funny thing is, when the idea of Headley was brought up in late September early October I was against it. Now I'm on board and the possibility doesn't look so good. I doubt the Sox are interested in getting into a bidding war with the Yanks.

 

VMart- while his projected annual salary is not as bad as I thought, I'm still not sold on the idea. I still prefer the idea of rotating four starting OF through the DH.

[BlackSox13]

I really heard 15+ and that is why he will not accept less in yrs.

Same here. I'm going to nose around and see if I can figure out how the hell I came up with that.