Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[LDF]

Same here. I'm going to nose around and see if I can figure out how the hell I came up with that.

 

ok I found 1 of the 2 articles I was reading. I was trying to figure out

if the M's would still be interested in DV.

 

here is the snippet.

 

How high the Ms are willing to go is a question, but a 3/$60M+ contract with a 4th year option

 

here is the link

 

http://seattlesportsinsider.com/posts/stat...-and-some-ideas

[BlackSox13]

ok I found 1 of the 2 articles I was reading. I was trying to figure out

if the M's would still be interested in DV.

 

here is the snippet.

 

How high the Ms are willing to go is a question, but a 3/$60M+ contract with a 4th year option

 

here is the link

 

http://seattlesportsinsider.com/posts/stat...-and-some-ideas

I found this too...

 

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/mlb/tige...gency/17850599/

 

"The agent, who requested anonymity, said he doesn't think Martinez will be difficult to please in the Tigers' situation – a familiar team with a formidable chance at the World Series next year – and expects him to get more than the three-year, $50 million contract the Yankees gave Carlos Beltran after his age 36 season."

 

I think the 18M per year range is likely where he ends up.

 

Another thing Sox fans need to consider is that teams with a better chance of being contenders will be after VMart and at almost 36 years old you can bet that will be a huge factor in his decision. Teams like Detroit, Seattle, Baltimore, KC are closer to contention and if the Yanks don't go after or sign Headley you can bet they would have interest in VMart as well. I just don't see much interest from VMart in playing for a Sox team that won 73 games last season.

 

I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer to fellow Sox fans, just trying to be realistic. Don't listen to the idiot sports writers.

Edited November 3, 2014 by StRoostifer

[Vance Law]

I'd expect Martinez to push for something in the range of 4/$60 (maybe not getting it?) and Headley to push 5/$75, maybe more.

 

The Yankees are supposed to be in on Headley, so it's going to cost a fortune to "outbid" for his services.

 

I can't see how that makes any sense for the Yankees- which doesn't mean they won't go for it. With A-Rod coming back, that would mean he has to be shifted to 1B or DH. That means making Beltran a full-time outfielder again at age 38. With A-Rod and Martin Prado already on the team, I don't see why they go for Headley.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't.

 

If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me.

I did first say sign a starter . I said if you're going to skimp anywhere it's the rotation only because its the most likely place on the team where it's possible we already have the pieces to contend if all goes right . We're building a team that can contend not the odds on favorite to win the World Series next year. VMart is one way to go another is Scherzer or Lester and bullpen pieces , I think both get bigger contracts than VMart.

[Chicago White Sox]

For me it all depends on the price? At 3/$48M I would definitely sign him. Add another year or a few million in AAV and I'll pass.

 

And while I totally understand the age concerns, I think people are overvaluing the loss of a 2nd round pick. If you think Marinez can be an impact bat over the life of the contract, then the loss of the draft pick (and bonus pool) shouldn't even factor into the decision.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Chicago White Sox

[Jake]

Frontload the contract while you can afford it. You won't hate yourself as much later on and it might make him tradeable if things don't work out so well.

[Bob Sacamano]

Frontload the contract while you can afford it. You won't hate yourself as much later on and it might make him tradeable if things don't work out so well.

 

I agree with this. Especially if they find other cheap 1-2 year deal kind of guys in other areas

[BlackSox13]

For me it all depends on the price? At 3/$48M I would definitely sign him. Add another year or a few million in AAV and I'll pass.

 

And while I totally understand the age concerns, I think people are overvaluing the loss of a 2nd round pick. If you think Marinez can be an impact bat over the life of the contract, then the loss of the draft pick (and bonus pool) shouldn't even factor into the decision.

Supposedly VMart is looking for a 4 year deal with a contender and at 36, I believe it. VMart alone does not make the Sox a contender which means the Sox would need to get holes filled first so the Sox can go to VMart and show how they have taken steps to make the team better and tell VMart that he's the finishing touch to a Sox contender.

 

I cannot stress this enough, do not get your hopes up Sox fans. Stop believing what idiots like Levine have written. DH is only one of the holes to fill on the Sox along with LF, two or maybe even three bullpen spots, 2B , possibly a starting pitcher and a case could be made for a defensive upgrade at 3B. That's a lot of holes to fill in one off season and a very hard sell to VMart.

 

Sorry, I just don't see VMart being interested and that doesn't include the love spat between he and Sale.

[shysocks]

This has been argued to death already so I'll keep it short: Don't pay old guys coming off a career year. It's a bad idea. Just don't do it.

[Dam8610]

Have you noticed that the "top prospect" has not reached AAA yet and he has struggled defensively playing SS at A and AA levels???

 

I'm surprised no one else responded to this with all the prospect junkies on here. Anyway, Anderson fractured his right wrist in late June or early July, and still in his age 21 season mashed High A pitching to the tune of 120 wRC+, then AFTER the wrist injury, earned a promotion to AA where in a very small sample size (10 games), he mashed AA pitching to the tune of a 143 wRC+.

 

So when do you contend ? How do you fill holes by doing nothing or spending on even riskier FA's or trading for the same types. They all have their baggage whether its, injuries or coming off bad seasons , or age. Get VMart , see if you can pry Michael Saunders from Seattle sign a starter and a closer put Bassitt in the pen or let him and Rodon start . VMart, fixed bullpen and a cheap Saunders seems doable . If you skimp anywhere let it be the starting pitching and look to build value with Danks, Noesi and Bassitt.

 

The best way to do it is a steady building approach. In 2013, they won 63 games. In 2014, they won 73 games. You'd like to see a similar level of improvement in 2015, then move into full contention mode in 2016. Doing it that way will likely allow the team to hang on to its young, cost controlled assets and not make dumb decisions that they'll regret in the prime years of their contention window like giving a 36 year old a 4 year deal worth $18+ million per year.

 

Although I don't like the Martinez option...I'd very much prefer Martinez to Headley (and I think Headley is going to get a lot more than Martinez).

 

Up until you said this, I'd agreed with pretty much everything you'd said. Martinez is going to get $18+ million per year, Headley should be $15 million or under, even with the Yankees bidding on him.

[BlackSox13]

I'm surprised no one else responded to this with all the prospect junkies on here. Anyway, Anderson fractured his right wrist in late June or early July, and still in his age 21 season mashed High A pitching to the tune of 120 wRC+, then AFTER the wrist injury, earned a promotion to AA where in a very small sample size (10 games), he mashed AA pitching to the tune of a 143 wRC+.

 

 

 

The best way to do it is a steady building approach. In 2013, they won 63 games. In 2014, they won 73 games. You'd like to see a similar level of improvement in 2015, then move into full contention mode in 2016. Doing it that way will likely allow the team to hang on to its young, cost controlled assets and not make dumb decisions that they'll regret in the prime years of their contention window like giving a 36 year old a 4 year deal worth $18+ million per year.

 

 

 

Up until you said this, I'd agreed with pretty much everything you'd said. Martinez is going to get $18+ million per year, Headley should be $15 million or under, even with the Yankees bidding on him.

Yeah, this, all of it.^^

 

The only only thing I'd like to add is that pretty much everyone knows that if/when Anderson makes it to the pros, it will be his bat that carried him there. His defense has been a question mark since before he was drafted so its nothing new really, just something we hope he can improve is all. Its why he's been speculated to end up at 2B or even CF. Besides, at 21, he can still improve enough to be an average defensive SS someday.

[caulfield12]

Supposedly VMart is looking for a 4 year deal with a contender and at 36, I believe it. VMart alone does not make the Sox a contender which means the Sox would need to get holes filled first so the Sox can go to VMart and show how they have taken steps to make the team better and tell VMart that he's the finishing touch to a Sox contender.

 

I cannot stress this enough, do not get your hopes up Sox fans. Stop believing what idiots like Levine have written. DH is only one of the holes to fill on the Sox along with LF, two or maybe even three bullpen spots, 2B , possibly a starting pitcher and a case could be made for a defensive upgrade at 3B. That's a lot of holes to fill in one off season and a very hard sell to VMart.

 

Sorry, I just don't see VMart being interested and that doesn't include the love spat between he and Sale.

 

We know they're highly unlikely to touch 2b with semien /Johnson and probably more unlikely to pay Sandoval/Hanley/headley.

 

I'm just as worried about catcher as those two positions. Once again like 3b (where you're looking at $12-18 million aav per year players) the only obvious upgrade is Martin and we are not in a position to put all our eggs in one or two baskets when we are 5-6 quality players away from contention.

Edited November 3, 2014 by caulfield12

[greg775]

Supposedly VMart is looking for a 4 year deal with a contender and at 36, I believe it. VMart alone does not make the Sox a contender which means the Sox would need to get holes filled first so the Sox can go to VMart and show how they have taken steps to make the team better and tell VMart that he's the finishing touch to a Sox contender.

 

I cannot stress this enough, do not get your hopes up Sox fans. Stop believing what idiots like Levine have written. DH is only one of the holes to fill on the Sox along with LF, two or maybe even three bullpen spots, 2B , possibly a starting pitcher and a case could be made for a defensive upgrade at 3B. That's a lot of holes to fill in one off season and a very hard sell to VMart.

 

Sorry, I just don't see VMart being interested and that doesn't include the love spat between he and Sale.

 

I don't see either side being interested. Seriously, after the Dunn fiasco can anybody see the Sox giving Martinez what he wants? There's no way the Sox pony up for four years, 20 million a year. I'll shut up and not post this anymore if any of you in the know comment on, not whether this is smart or not to sign him, but IF there's a chance in hell the Sox would ever sign an old guy to that kind of contract again?? Just agree or disagree with my following assertion: "There is no way in hell the Sox will even considering entering the bidding war at 15 mill and up a year for four years for Martinez."

Edited November 3, 2014 by greg775

[BlackSox13]

We know they're highly unlikely to touch 2b with semien /Johnson and probably more unlikely to pay Sandoval/Hanley/headley.

 

I'm just as worried about catcher as those two positions. Once again like 3b (where you're looking at $12-18 million aav per year players) the only obvious upgrade is Martin and we are not in a position to put all our eggs in one or two baskets when we are 5-6 quality players away from contention.

Absolutely agreed.

 

I only mention second because its an unknown until hopefully one of the kids shows they can take it over full time and give some kind of production. I do believe one of Semien, Sanchez or Johnson will be productive there.

 

Catcher, I'm actually OK with Flowers provided other positions are upgraded.

 

3B. I like Gillaspie's bat and I actually think he will continue improving, its his defense I'm concerned about. If he could add just a bit more pop, he could be used in a role similar to what the Sox would ask of a guy like LaRoche, though Gillaspie won't have the 30+ HR pop.

 

The bullpen and LF are glaring problems and IMO, should be the first holes to be taken care of.

 

Honestly, I really don't see how Hahn turns this team into a contender for 2015. The Sox don't have enough minor league assets to trade off to fill the holes and JR is not one to spend big in FA much less sign multiple FA's. Sure the Sox can afford to take on a bad contract or two but that won't fill the holes either. My guess is the Sox add a few quality players to add to the core that helps the Sox improve another 10 games or so but I have a difficult time seeing them being able to add enough this winter to make them the contenders Hahn has said they can be. IMO, JR would have to allow Hahn to sign at least one FA bat, trade for another high salary bat Kemp/Crawford/ Ethier, sign a few bullpen arms and maybe even a starting pitcher depending on how much faith one has in Noesi/Danks/Rodon/Bassitt and co. to fill out the rotation behind Sale and Q.

 

Just too many questions to be answered in one off season. I do have faith in Hahn to make the Sox contenders for 2016.

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Supposedly VMart is looking for a 4 year deal with a contender and at 36, I belieRasmusGVMart alone does not make the Sox a contender which means the Sox would need to get holes filled first so the Sox can go to VMart and show how they have taken steps to make the team better and tell VMart that he's the finishing touch to a Sox contender.

 

I cannot stress this enough, do not get your hopes up Sox fans. Stop believing what idiots like Levine have written. DH is only one of the holes to fill on the Sox along with LF, two or maybe even three bullpen spots, 2B , possibly a starting pitcher and a case could be made for a defensive upgrade at 3B. That's a lot of holes to fill in one off season and a very hard sell to VMart.

 

Sorry, I just don't see VMart being interested and that doesn't include the love spat between he and Sale.

 

I think they end up with Rasmus on a one year deal so he can rebuild his value to enter free agency again next season. Eaton Alexei Abreu Martinez Garcia Rasmus Gillaspie Flowers second baseman

[BlackSox13]

I don't see either side being interested. Seriously, after the Dunn fiasco can anybody see the Sox giving Martinez what he wants? There's no way the Sox pony up for four years, 20 million a year. I'll shut up and not post this anymore if any of you in the know comment on, not whether this is smart or not to sign him, but IF there's a chance in hell the Sox would ever sign an old guy to that kind of contract again?? Just agree or disagree with my following assertion: "There is no way in hell the Sox will even considering entering the bidding war at 15 mill and up a year for four years for Martinez."

I agree with everything you say here Greg. The Sox going after VMart was written about quite a few times since September and has taken on a life of its own. Fans bought the hype hook, line and sinker. VMart does not fit the mold that Hahn has repeatedly spoken of, JR is not the type to spend huge money on a 4 year deal for a 36 year old player and the Sox need more than a DH to even be considered a contender.

 

I really think that the local writers are trying to force the Sox into spending on VMart by getting the fans on board to help put pressure on the Sox. It reminds too much of a propaganda machine.

[BlackSox13]

I think they end up with Rasmus on a one year deal so he can rebuild his value to enter free agency again next season. Eaton Alexei Abreu Martinez Garcia Rasmus Gillaspie Flowers second baseman

This I can see and would make sense for both sides. If Rasmus performs well then he boosts his value, the Sox get better production from LF and if Rasmus and the Sox are happy with one another then an extension could be worked out to keep Rasmus on the south side. I would be all for this and I'm not the biggest fan of Rasmus but his age and power makes me think there could be to come from his game.

 

Good call!

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Pretty poll-arizing topic. I was pretty sure Soxtalk would be about 50/50 on acquiring VMart but it vexes me somewhat that I've already seen posters say throw huge amounts of cash at Yoan Moncada, a guy who isnt likely to contribute for 2+ years and that's being conversative. You'd be tying up possible VMart money ( or more) into an unknown while every year that passes our best players best years get wasted.

 

Maybe the Sox should just sit on their hands or just sign reclamation projects and expensive prospects and hope for the best ? Hahn's got the payroll flexibility and he going to try and make a splash whether or not some of you are afraid to get back up on the donkey after it kicked you.

 

Rasmus at 1 year makes no sense. Even if he signed for 1 year which in itself is pretty doubtful it would be to re-enter free agency not to work out an extension. And if you agree with what Soxfan wrote there did you miss that he had Martinez in our lineup along with Rasmus ?

 

StRoostifer I just don't understand your whole position. You don't think JR will pony up any money for decent free agents,you don't think the Sox have the minors in good enough shape to make trades. You want Rasmus on a one year deal so he can leave the next year. Yet you have confidence in Hahn to make the Sox a contender in 2016 . So how are the Sox going to fil your 6 holes by 2016 to give them any chance to compete unless they spend some of their surplus money this year ?

 

I know you said fill the holes with good quality but that is pretty vague . Where is this good quality and how do you get it ? Name some players who don't have the baggage I mentioned earlier ( bad defense, too old, high price tag, too young , injuries , coming off a bad yr. ; hell, coming off a great year is considered baggage around here).

Edited November 3, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[BlackSox13]

Pretty poll-arizing topic. I was pretty sure Soxtalk would be about 50/50 on acquiring VMart but it vexes me somewhat that I've already seen posters say throw huge amounts of cash at Yoan Moncada, a guy who isnt likely to contribute for 2+ years and that's being conversative. You'd be tying up possible VMart money ( or more) into an unknown while every year that passes our best players best years get wasted.

 

Maybe the Sox should just sit on their hands or just sign reclamation projects and ecpensive prospects and hope for the best ? Hahn's got the payroll flexibility and he going to try and make a splash whether or not some of you are afraid to get back up on the donkey after it kicked you.

 

Rasmus at 1 year makes no sense. Even if he signed for 1 year which in itself is pretty doubtful it would be to re-enter free agency not to work out an extension. And if you agree with what Soxfan wrote there did you miss that he had Martinez in our lineup @ with Rasmus ?

Moncada is a guy that would contribute for many years to come and while in his prime, unlike VMart. VMart is a guy a team signs thats one piece away from winning and the Sox are much more a way from winning than that.

 

VMart alone does not come close to making the Sox a contender for 2015 and it would seem the Sox will not be a contender anyway for reasons already mentioned in the thread. Just too many holes...

 

Rasmus at one year makes sense since his numbers were down in 2014 he can rebuild his value, the Sox get a LH bat for LF and if Rasmus hits well, likes the south side and the Sox like him than yes an extension is a realistic possibility.

 

I agreed with what soxfan wrote about Rasmus which showed in my response to his post. I left VMart out of my response purposely because I'm sure soxfan had seen other comments against the idea of VMart so I'm sure he knows how I feel about VMart. The idea I liked and complimented him on was Rasmus.

[GreenSox]

So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't.

 

If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me.

He would be great to have, but the Sox will get more bang for the buck by spreading the money around and filling holes, of which there are many. To pay him that kind of money and then have Viciedo in left, Danks in the rotation and Lindstrom and/or Belisario members of this bullpen, is hard to justify.

 

RE the sniping on the Sox prospects I read hereon, prospects are a currency. The Sox abject lack of prospects (caused by poor scouting but also by the Sox under-valuing them) put us in this mess. As it is Anderson is raking and errors are no way to judge defense anyway and is a top 100 prospect.

 

Re Bruce, even at his high end (which he may never ever reach again)he is extremely high K and mediocre OBP.

Sox are building an organization and an annual contender. Not every move will be made for next year (thankfully).

Edited November 3, 2014 by GreenSox

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Moncada is a guy that would contribute for many years to come and while in his prime, unlike VMart. VMart is a guy a team signs thats one piece away from winning and the Sox are much more a way from winning than that.

 

VMart alone does not come close to making the Sox a contender for 2015 and it would seem the Sox will not be a contender anyway for reasons already mentioned in the thread. Just too many holes...

 

Rasmus at one year makes sense since his numbers were down in 2014 he can rebuild his value, the Sox get a LH bat for LF and if Rasmus hits well, likes the south side and the Sox like him than yes an extension is a realistic possibility.

 

I agreed with what soxfan wrote about Rasmus which showed in my response to his post. I left VMart out of my response purposely because I'm sure soxfan had seen other comments against the idea of VMart so I'm sure he knows how I feel about VMart. The idea I liked and complimented him on was Rasmus.

It just seems that you flipflopped your position from the Your Offseason plan thread where you thought the Sox could contend in 2015. You keep saying VMart alone doesnt make the Sox a contender but who the heck is saying just sign VMart and no one else ?

 

So VMart, a proven high quality ML hitter would be worth less than some unproven 19 yr old who if you sign for a certain amount you'd just double the salary in penalties ? Don't like wasting money on an old proven hitter then you should hate wasting $30-40M on penalties .

 

Soxfan wanted Rasmus with Martinez in the lineup that was his scenario. Maybe without Martinez in the lineup he doesn't want Rasmus on a 1 yr deal or at all since if Rasmus proves his worth he'd certainly want the big bucks to follow . He'd be insane not to. However I'm 99.999 % sure he won't be signing a 1 yr deal with anyone considering its a huge risk given that if he sucks again he will be worth even less.

 

And I'm still waiting on who you think is good quality. Maybe we can sign them all for 1 yr and Hahn can start from scratch for 2016 again.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

So your starting rotation is the 2 solid lefties, Noesi, Danks, and Bassitt, and you're telling me you think you have a competitive roster? Because I don't.

 

If you're going to sign Martinez for a huge price, you better go into the season with a rotation that can win the division, because signing Martinez and going with a rotation like that sounds like wasting Martinez's probably best remaining season to me.

Did you conveniently leave out Rodon because I think the Sox have him up for at least 75% or the year. He has just as good of a chance at the starting rotation as Bassitt does. If I had to guess Hahn will probably dip back into the SP reclamation project again hoping he can get some value . If it makes you feel any better put Bassitt in the pen and add Rodon to the starters. A great roation isn't necessary to make it to the post season if the pen can protect some leads and your defense played well . Is it me or is finding good defenders who can hit decently getting as hard as finding a good catcher ?

[Dick Allen]

And 35-year old 125 wRC+ DHs get like 2yr/$24m. If that's where we are, then it's a different discussion.

 

Before last year, Victor Martinez's career, offensively, spanned from 86 wRC+ to 130 wRC+. Last year, he put up 166 wRC+. That's SO much better. Even if you ignore the possibility of age-related decline, you have got to be suspicious at a guy who suddenly hits 40% better after 12 years of remarkably consistent performance.

 

So when you say it's "worth the risk," I really don't understand. I mean EVERY free agent presents a risk, I'd argue that if one was worth the risk, it wouldn't be one that DOESN'T have so many obvious signs that his performance was flukey. I'm not saying we all wouldn't like 2014 VMart in our lineup, but that's just not what is going to happen if we sign him.

 

It's the same thing with Shields. They've been awesome, but we can't afford to push the chips in on guys that are obviously riskier than the others.

Amazing how you try to spin this. His 86 was when he was injured in 2008. Other than that year and 2013 when he was coming back from missing a season due to an offseason injury and struggled to start but hit .361/.413./500 the second half, his wRC+ has been over 120 every year since 2004 when it was 119. A consistently good hitter who Steamer is projectimg to put up a 139 next year. I am getting this stuff for Fangraphs. I thought you would be impressed, you aren't going to tell me they are full of s*** are you?

[LDF]

He would be great to have, but the `1-Sox will get more bang for the buck by spreading the money around and filling holes, of which there are many. To pay him that kind of money and then have Viciedo in left, Danks in the rotation and Lindstrom and/or Belisario members of this bullpen, is hard to justify.

 

RE the sniping on the `2-Sox prospects I read hereon, prospects are a currency. The Sox abject lack of prospects (caused by poor scouting but also by the Sox under-valuing them) put us in this mess. As it is Anderson is raking and errors are no way to judge defense anyway and is a top 100 prospect.

 

Re 3-Bruce, even at his high end (which he may never ever reach again)he is extremely high K and mediocre OBP.

Sox are building an organization and an annual contender. Not every move will be made for next year (thankfully).

 

re:

1. the sox need players at different positions or in other words holes that

need to be filled. if the sox invested wisely, they may be able to get a real

good player who can put up numbers and play "D". instead of getting a player

who will hit 30 hrs and K - 2 to 1 more that he hits. the sox should get a player

who can hit 10-15 hrs, nice avg, low K and 140 hits in a season.

 

2. that is all of KW fault and how he treated the farm systems. some of which

I would do. but not every yr. in addition the farm system is / was horrible b/c

he and his staff never drafted well.

 

3. Bruce in not a 1 in a lifetime kind of a player. there will be others like him. the

sox need to save their prospect for the big team.

[Eminor3rd]

I am NOT saying that he took and special vitamins, but all he needed to do is take it

last yr so he can max out his contract. after that is done, he doesn't take it again.

"oh well his age took over for his lower offensive stats"

 

I don't think it was drug-related at all, I think he just had a really awesome, non-repeatable year. He IS a really good hitter, but it's just impossible to rationally argue he's THIS good. And unfortunately, the level of his recent performance is going to drive his salary requirements, and his age make him a higher risk than normal anyway.

 

I mean someone else around here said it perfectly a while back: Oh, he's a really good hitter though? So was Paul Konerko. Eventually, age catches up. If Victor had put up another 125 wRC+ and was looking for 2/24m without draft pick compensation, then I think he'd be a really reasonable risk to take. But if all these rumors are true, 4/65m or whatever is just such a huge gamble for a guy that has a lot of red flags and, to be honest, isn't likely to "put us over the top" at this point anyway.