Victor Martinez Re-signs with Tigers

[greg775]

So you think if we add Victor Martinez and he puts up a wRC+ of 130 we'll only be 2.5 games better next year?

 

I agree he won't make much of a difference alone. Right now this team is poorly constructed. A few stars but horrible defense, historically bad bullpen and two good starting pitchers won't cut it.

[Eminor3rd]

Yet you do the same thing you are ripping me of when you clamour for Russell Martin. GMAB.

 

Adding mediocre players to a roster is not the way to win. Nothing suggests Victor Martinez is a mediocre player.

 

I don't understand. Russell Martin is four years younger than Victor Martinez, and he derives most of his value from defense. How is that similar at all?

[Eminor3rd]

As I stated but you just ignored, if he put up his career average, we all would be happy. Just pointed out, since fangraphs WAR was so important to you, that their page is projecting a pretty nice season next year. So if you are going to use Fangraphs, you really shouldn't pick and choose which numbers to use. For his career his wRC+ is 125.

 

Steamer is just the first system to come out for the coming year -- ZiPS is almost universally considered better, and Marcel is usually factored in as well, heavy-handed as that system is. Anyone at FanGraphs would recommend using several systems for context, so it isn't necessarily true to cite Steamer and say "See! FanGraphs says he's good!"

[Eminor3rd]

As I stated but you just ignored, if he put up his career average, we all would be happy. Just pointed out, since fangraphs WAR was so important to you, that their page is projecting a pretty nice season next year. So if you are going to use Fangraphs, you really shouldn't pick and choose which numbers to use. For his career his wRC+ is 125.

 

I don't know if I'd be happy with a 125 wRC+ if we pay him $60-70m over four years or so. Maybe that's where we disagree. To me, his career average isn't enough to justify that price out of a DH, and it comes with more risk than average.

[harfman77]

No thanks on Victor. The cost is going to be too high for the twilight of his career in both money and the opportunity cost of the second round pick. He turns 36 next month and is reportedly looking for a four year deal, just too much risk in that for me. I would much rather have Sandoval at this point.

[dpd9189]

No thanks on Victor. The cost is going to be too high for the twilight of his career in both money and the opportunity cost of the second round pick. He turns 36 next month and is reportedly looking for a four year deal, just too much risk in that for me. I would much rather have Sandoval at this point.

 

I agree. Pass on V-Mart.

[Dick Allen]

Steamer is just the first system to come out for the coming year -- ZiPS is almost universally considered better, and Marcel is usually factored in as well, heavy-handed as that system is. Anyone at FanGraphs would recommend using several systems for context, so it isn't necessarily true to cite Steamer and say "See! FanGraphs says he's good!"

Funny, you mentioned Steamer the other day when someone mentioned a player.

[Dick Allen]

I don't know if I'd be happy with a 125 wRC+ if we pay him $60-70m over four years or so. Maybe that's where we disagree. To me, his career average isn't enough to justify that price out of a DH, and it comes with more risk than average.

Another laugher considering you were the one mentioning a lack of comprehension. Go back to my posts when Balta asked me what I considered crazy when talking about his next contract. You will see $60-70 million guaranteed would have fit in my definition.

[GreenSox]

IMO, its going to take this off season, the 2016 trade deadline and next off season to build a contender. Just too many holes. The Sox are not the Yanks, BoSox or Dodgers that go out and buy multiple FA's to fill in holes. If this were the case, JR could turn this into a contender by signing VMart or LaRoche to DH, Ramirez or Headley to play 3B , Rasmus or Melky to play LF, BMac to be a starter (if he could stay healthy) as well as sign a few bullpen arms. But that's not JR and in fact I'd be shocked if the Sox signed any two of those guys.

 

I'm just hoping the Sox gain another 10 games in the win column in 2015 and anything more than that is a bonus. Just keep improving.

 

As for Moncada, if I have to explain to you that he's an investment in the LONG term future then the discussion is already over because there's a huge difference between the reasons you sign players like VMart and Moncada.

I agree with most of this.

A couple of things though - if the Sox put together a team that figures to win 83ish, it could win 86 and in this division, that might be enough. But in 2016, not only will the Sox be poised to win, it will be for a much longer window than 1-2 years - something that, with good drafting, can stay going for a long time. And the Sox won't be saddled with any albatross contracts either.

I also think that more aggressive moves aren't worth the risk (nor the prospects) at this time.

But for 2015, they really need to add a LF, another hitter, a mid-level starter and a bullpen pitcher. They may be able to get some of it by trade.

[Eminor3rd]

Another laugher considering you were the one mentioning a lack of comprehension. Go back to my posts when Balta asked me what I considered crazy when talking about his next contract. You will see $60-70 million guaranteed would have fit in my definition.

 

Then what the hell are you arguing about? We'd all love him at some absurdly low contract figure that isn't realistic at all. Lol

[Eminor3rd]

Funny, you mentioned Steamer the other day when someone mentioned a player.

 

You have amazingly interpretted my post as "Steamer is useless." You are incredible.

[Dick Allen]

You have amazingly interpretted my post as "Steamer is useless." You are incredible.

It is just funny that you throw out Steamer in order to say something makes sense, but when I throw out the same, "theres something better than Steamer". The only reason I used it is because you did earlier.

 

Just be consistent.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

It is just funny that you throw out Steamer in order to say something makes sense, but when I throw out the same, "theres something better than Steamer". The only reason I used it is because you did earlier.

 

Just be consistent.

 

Steamer isn't useless nor infallible, it's a point of reference. Especially in the instance of some uncommon statistical anomaly, such as Victor Martinez's random career year, it's best to use multiple points of reference. I'm not telling you you shouldn't use it, but rather pointing out that Steamer is not akin to some sort of "FanGraphs official stance" on a player's future performance like you seemed to be implying.

Edited November 3, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

Steamer isn't useless nor infallible, it's a point of reference. Especially in the instance of some uncommon statistical anomaly, such as Victor Martinez's random career year, it's best to use multiple points of reference. I'm not telling you you shouldn't use it, but rather pointing out that Steamer is not akin to some sort of "FanGraphs official stance" on a player's future performance like you seemed to be implying.

Maybe you shouldn't have referenced it to make a point. I actually agree with you and don't think Victor will repeat his 2014 ever again. I just think he is good enough to warrant being paid a lot of money to hit in the middle of the line up for the next few seasons.

 

Someone might go crazy, or he may not want to play for the White Sox. But I hope they are willing to take a gamble with him.

 

Although with J.B Shuck now White Sox property, there may be enough to win now.

[Eminor3rd]

Maybe you shouldn't have referenced it to make a point.

 

sigh

[LDF]

Pretty much everyone would like to be paid like that. If he does, good for him. The reality is he will have to find someone to pay him like that. .306/.373/.475 . Those are his career splits. It seems to me a lot of people have focused on his career year, which he did have. But his career numbers suggest he is far more than a one year, contract year wonder.

 

don't get me wrong, I am not for signing him. I was interested and debated the

PED issue with other posters. but not for a salary of what ever he wants and for

4 yrs. that is plain and simple a waste of money.

 

whom ever signed him is paying for last yr stats. can he do it again who knows.

is it a gamble I want, no.

[caulfield12]

Victor Martinez, 3 years for $48 million, I'm okay with that.

 

The problem is 2015's likely to be his best season of those three, and the timing's off by one year...where when we needed him in 2014 form, we'd be getting a predictably diminished return already in 2016.

 

Royals are a MUCH better fit for Martinez. (Although I doubt they're willing to give him four years, either). Maybe they'll go 3 years/$54-56 million.

 

[Eminor3rd]

Victor Martinez, 3 years for $48 million, I'm okay with that.

 

The problem is 2015's likely to be his best season of those three, and the timing's off by one year...where when we needed him in 2014 form, we'd be getting a predictably diminished return already in 2016.

 

Royals are a MUCH better fit for Martinez. (Although I doubt they're willing to give him four years, either). Maybe they'll go 3 years/$54-56 million.

 

Royals ARE an interesting fit, actually.

[BlackSox13]

I agree with most of this.

A couple of things though - if the Sox put together a team that figures to win 83ish, it could win 86 and in this division, that might be enough. But in 2016, not only will the Sox be poised to win, it will be for a much longer window than 1-2 years - something that, with good drafting, can stay going for a long time. And the Sox won't be saddled with any albatross contracts either.

I also think that more aggressive moves aren't worth the risk (nor the prospects) at this time.

But for 2015, they really need to add a LF, another hitter, a mid-level starter and a bullpen pitcher. They may be able to get some of it by trade.

Sadly, for the ALC, 86 wins could win the division. I'm thinking the Tigers age shows in 2015 but the Tribe gets better and believe it or not so does KC. I think KC's pitching will be fine and will add a good hitter or two to improve the offense. I can see the Tribe being a 90 win team if they can stay healthy and possibly the same for KC.

 

I think 2016 will be the Sox coming out party and will become perennial contenders for some years thereafter.

 

My guess is the Sox add a LF, a bullpen arm and possibly a 1B/DH but that's about it. 2015 will be a telling season with respect to who settles in at 2B, how Gillaspie improves both defensively and offensively, a full season of Avi, if Danks and Noesi improve and Rodon getting his feet wet at some point...

 

There's just so many holes to fill as well as things that would have to go right, IMO, its better to keep expectations reasonable and hope for better.

[caulfield12]

If Santana/Bauer/Carrasco ever get on a roll to go along with Kluber, watch out.

 

If all those guys pitch up to their potential in CLE, they might actually end up with the best rotation in the division unless Rodon becomes the equivalent of Jose Abreu as a pitcher.

 

Cleveland still has to shore up their bullpen and get a comeback season from Kipnis.

 

 

As far as Victor Martinez on the Royals, that would give them almost perfect balance, with Martinez/Gordon/Hosmer/Moustakas from that side...to go along with Escobar, Perez, Infante/2B, Cain, and not sure if they're ready to replace Aoki with Dyson or would prefer to add another veteran outfielder or possibly create a platoon with Dyson.

[southsider2k5]

Royals ARE an interesting fit, actually.

 

Seattle is my favorite, non-Detroit, landing place. With the money they have spent in the last couple of years, it makes sense.

[BlackSox13]

If Santana/Bauer/Carrasco ever get on a roll to go along with Kluber, watch out.

 

If all those guys pitch up to their potential in CLE, they might actually end up with the best rotation in the division unless Rodon becomes the equivalent of Jose Abreu as a pitcher.

 

Cleveland still has to shore up their bullpen and get a comeback season from Kipnis.

 

 

As far as Victor Martinez on the Royals, that would give them almost perfect balance, with Martinez/Gordon/Hosmer/Moustakas from that side...to go along with Escobar, Perez, Infante/2B, Cain, and not sure if they're ready to replace Aoki with Dyson or would prefer to add another veteran outfielder or possibly create a platoon with Dyson.

VMart on the Royals makes a lot of sense, almost too much, since the Royals have the pitching already with salary coming off the books and making more money from the playoffs, they can afford VMart and he could just be the missing piece to the Royals offense. If I were VMart, the Royals are where I would look to sign. The Tigers are falling, the Tribe don't have the money to bring him back or at least, as you said, need to work on the pen and the Sox aren't there yet.

 

I think the Tribe and Royals will be the teams to beat in the ALC with the Tigers falling flat on their asses.

[BlackSox13]

Seattle is my favorite, non-Detroit, landing place. With the money they have spent in the last couple of years, it makes sense.

I stumbled across an article yesterday that speculated Seattle does have room in the payroll for VMart. I have no idea if that's true or not but it could make sense.

 

I'm guessing VMart lands in KC.

 

 

[shysocks]

I stumbled across an article yesterday that speculated Seattle does have room in the payroll for VMart. I have no idea if that's true or not but it could make sense.

 

I'm guessing VMart lands in KC.

I would guess the Royals aren't willing to spend that kind of money, whether he fits their roster or not.

[caulfield12]

I would guess the Royals aren't willing to spend that kind of money, whether he fits their roster or not.

 

 

He's the perfect "contact hitting" role model for Hosmer, Moustakas and Gordon.

 

Anything less than $60 million over three years and the Royals will be interested. KC is more of a doubles' park in April/May/September...but that won't bother Martinez at all because Comerica plays similarly.

 

Plus they've got quite a few Hispanic players in Herrera, Escobar, Bueno, Infante...and, most importantly, Sal Perez, who's also Venezuelan and seen by many as the "next Yadier Molina." He could replace Raul Ibanez as a "leadership figure/role model" in that clubhouse.

 

They lose Shields/Butler/Aoki and end up replacing them with V.Martinez/Volquez/mystery outfielder who's an upgrade on Aoki and/or platoon partner for Dyson. With Martinez in the line-up, you can afford to play Dyson and Cain together defensively more often in the outfield.

Edited November 4, 2014 by caulfield12