Hank Conger traded to Astros

[GreenSox]

White Sox players who were better than Jason Castro last year

Abreu

Sale

Quintana

Ramirez

Flowers

Eaton

Gillaspie

DeAza

Flowers

And that's the significant one

 

[Chisoxfn]

What about for Viciedo? Maybe we get something back like a BP arm as well.

I'd be all for it, but there is zero chance Houston would be.

[Rowand44]

I would be okay with Castro but I'm not giving up a ton for him.

Yup.

[LDF]

I think Conger was brought in to give Castro some competition after Castro's numbers took a big hit in 2014. I don't think the Astros deal Castro and if they do I hope its not the Sox. As others have said, if Castro is an upgrade its a very slight upgrade and that's before taking into account how Flowers knows the Sox pitching or the fact that Flowers hitting progressed in 2014 while Castro regressed.

 

Astro fans can keep their precious Castro, the Sox do not need him.

 

stat wise, I was looking at them side by side. well I will the other post their

thoughts on it.

 

look at flowers, the last 3 months. and then at castro.

 

I would like to see your response.

[Bob Sacamano]

stat wise, I was looking at them side by side. well I will the other post their

thoughts on it.

 

look at flowers, the last 3 months. and then at castro.

 

I would like to see your response.

 

How do they look? On a phone and unable to look

[Feeky Magee]

I made this comment in the Montero thread:

 

The last time Montero had the BABIP luck Flowers did last season, he was worth 4.6 WAR, and that probably underestimated him by a lot because he's a great framer

 

Steamer has him projected for 3 WAR (again, consider framing) and Flowers for 0.9 (framing to be considered here too but not as much)

 

He'd be an unquestionable upgrade

Replace Montero with Castro, 4.6 with 4.3 and 3 with 2.1 and I feel the exact same.

[witesoxfan]

I made this comment in the Montero thread:

 

 

Replace Montero with Castro, 4.6 with 4.3 and 3 with 2.1 and I feel the exact same.

 

Except that Castro's BABIP was pretty damn normal last year. He decreased his walks, increased his strikeouts, and started hitting a lot more ground balls.

 

Tyler Flowers' 2014 is incredibly similar to Jason Castro's 2013. I don't think Castro is much of an upgrade at this point.

[Feeky Magee]

Except that Castro's BABIP was pretty damn normal last year. He decreased his walks, increased his strikeouts, and started hitting a lot more ground balls.

 

Tyler Flowers' 2014 is incredibly similar to Jason Castro's 2013. I don't think Castro is much of an upgrade at this point.

Tyler Flowers' 2014 is incredibly similar to Jason Castro's 2013? Except Flowers was worth 1.8 WAR and Castro 4.3? And yeah, no s*** to the other stuff, that's why we're even talking about the possibility of getting him.

[BlackSox13]

stat wise, I was looking at them side by side. well I will the other post their

thoughts on it.

 

look at flowers, the last 3 months. and then at castro.

 

I would like to see your response.

Good call LDF. I just looked at them size by side comparing their 1st half/ 2nd half stats. Castro had the better first half but Flowers had the better 2nd half. Overall, Tyler improved while Castro took a turn for the worse. Not only will I take Tyler over Castro, but I will gladly keep the prospects it would take to acquire Castro.

 

IMO, the grass is not greener in the case of Flowers vs Castro.

[GreenSox]

Not that it's relevant to the Sox, but why did the Astros make this trade? They gave up 2 decent prospects for a player they don't seem to need.

[BlackSox13]

Not that it's relevant to the Sox, but why did the Astros make this trade? They gave up 2 decent prospects for a player they don't seem to need.

I'd guess that the Astros want to add depth at catcher since Castro regressed last season. Just giving the team an alternative option to possibly fall back on.

[daggins]

Well, Conger is pre-arb, so he is cost controlled. He also has upside, as a lefty catcher entering his "prime" years. This also allows them to explore moving Castro, who will likely earn 4M+ next year in arb. Considering that the 'Stos might add something like 20M in payroll, every little bit helps. Also, Houston is flush with great pitching prospects, and they would likely encounter some kind of roster crunch down the road. Good on the Angels for exploiting that.

[LDF]

Overall, Tyler improved while Castro took a turn for the worse.

Not only will I take Tyler over Castro, but I will gladly keep the prospects

it would take to acquire Castro.

 

IMO, the grass is not greener in the case of Flowers vs Castro.

 

thanks and yeah you are right. the power numbers > Flowers. the avg

> Flowers esp since he got those what contacts / glasses.

 

with the rest of the stats on Defense I will give way to those who are

way better than I. so for my book it is flowers.

 

however, here is the wildcard. does the sox believe Flowers can sustain

those improve numbers for the course of the yr???

[BlackSox13]

thanks and yeah you are right. the power numbers > Flowers. the avg

> Flowers esp since he got those what contacts / glasses.

 

with the rest of the stats on Defense I will give way to those who are

way better than I. so for my book it is flowers.

 

however, here is the wildcard. does the sox believe Flowers can sustain

those improve numbers for the course of the yr???

I think there's little doubt the Sox truly believe in Flowers since they have clearly stuck by him since AJ departed. I believe Flowers has earned the starting catcher job for 2015 and will continue to improve. Got to love those magic glasses of his!

 

 

[Feeky Magee]

Good call LDF. I just looked at them size by side comparing their 1st half/ 2nd half stats. Castro had the better first half but Flowers had the better 2nd half. Overall, Tyler improved while Castro took a turn for the worse. Not only will I take Tyler over Castro, but I will gladly keep the prospects it would take to acquire Castro.

 

IMO, the grass is not greener in the case of Flowers vs Castro.

You would take Tyler Flowers over Jason Castro, straight up? That's insane.

 

A lot of people here are going to look silly if the Sox make Flowers their regular catcher and he doesn't get the huge luck he got last year.

 

Castro walks more, strikes out considerably less, hits for only very slightly less power, runs the bases better, and is probably about to pass Flowers in framing given the rate of improvement he's shown as a young catcher.

[GreenSox]

You would take Tyler Flowers over Jason Castro, straight up? That's insane.

 

A lot of people here are going to look silly if the Sox make Flowers their regular catcher and he doesn't get the huge luck he got last year.

 

Castro walks more, strikes out considerably less, hits for only very slightly less power, runs the bases better, and is probably about to pass Flowers in framing given the rate of improvement he's shown as a young catcher.

Castro still strikes out a lot, the walk rates aren't that much different other than Castro's one year.

I just don't see the point in trading prospects for small upgrades.

As for Montero, he's had 2 consecutive down years and his WAR those years is about equal to Flowers.

It's hard to justify sending prospects for these marginal upgrades.

[LDF]

You would take Tyler Flowers over Jason Castro, straight up? That's insane.

 

A lot of people here are going to look silly if the Sox make Flowers their regular catcher and he doesn't get the huge luck he got last year.

 

Castro walks more, strikes out considerably less, hits for only very slightly less power, runs the bases better, and is probably about to pass Flowers in framing given the rate of improvement he's shown as a young catcher.

 

well that is not my fault. the doctors dropped me.

 

however you do have a point here. no excuse, I was looking at avg and power.

but let me say it this way, what will be the cost?

 

[BlackSox13]

You would take Tyler Flowers over Jason Castro, straight up? That's insane.

 

A lot of people here are going to look silly if the Sox make Flowers their regular catcher and he doesn't get the huge luck he got last year.

 

Castro walks more, strikes out considerably less, hits for only very slightly less power, runs the bases better, and is probably about to pass Flowers in framing given the rate of improvement he's shown as a young catcher.

Its a matter of perspective. From where I'm standing, taking Castro, his salary and giving up prospects is far more insane than sticking with Flowers, keeping the prospects and using the few million saved towards an upgrade at LF or DH or the bullpen, all of which are far more important to upgrade.

[LDF]

Its a matter of perspective. From where I'm standing, taking Castro, his salary and giving up prospects is far more insane than sticking with Flowers, keeping the prospects and using the few million saved towards an upgrade at LF or DH or the bullpen, all of which are far more important to upgrade.

 

I like that reasoning.

[BlackSox13]

I like that reasoning.

[Chicago White Sox]

Is WAR really an appropriate tool to value catchers? Defensive metrics are already suspect enough, how can you possibly quantify a catcher's defensive ability accurately? I get that pitch-framing is the big rave right now, but there's a lot more that goes into a catcher's role on the defensive side of the game that should be difficult to measure.

[LDF]

Is WAR really an appropriate tool to value catchers? Defensive metrics are already suspect enough, how can you possibly quantify a catcher's defensive ability accurately? I get that pitch-framing is the big rave right now, but there's a lot more that goes into a catcher's role on the defensive side of the game that should be difficult to measure.

 

that is a very good point.

 

let me ask this question. wasn't there a time that catchers were evaluated and how

did they do that then???

[GreenSox]

Is WAR really an appropriate tool to value catchers? Defensive metrics are already suspect enough, how can you possibly quantify a catcher's defensive ability accurately? I get that pitch-framing is the big rave right now, but there's a lot more that goes into a catcher's role on the defensive side of the game that should be difficult to measure.

The one objective measurable is % of runners thrown out and flowers, dare I say it, was pretty good in that regard.

[LDF]

The one objective measurable is % of runners thrown out and flowers, dare I say it, was pretty good in that regard.

 

I didn't know that.

 

but let me ask this, b/c I never knew the answer. how did the pro's tell and rate

if the catcher was a good game caller.

 

how does one measure that???

[GreenSox]

I didn't know that.

 

but let me ask this, b/c I never knew the answer. how did the pro's tell and rate

if the catcher was a good game caller.

 

how does one measure that???

Yea, Flowers was 6th in the majors in CS %

I agree - how does one measure pitch calling or, for that matter, framing?