cabiness42 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I don't consider Anderson to be untouchable, but I wouldn't trade him for a player with only one year of control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 06:59 AM) This will likely be regarded as heresy, among the White Sox faithful, but I don't regard Tim Anderson as anywhere near untouchable. If he were an elite defensive shortstop, with a strong arm and great hands, I would value him as much as most seem to. However, the reality is that he has an average, to below average arm, and just average hands. His 31 errors in 302 chances, last year at Winston Salem, validate the scouting reports that question whether or not he will be able to stick at SS. Being able to "stick" at SS is not the question for me. My question is; does he have the ability to provide elite defense at SS? The answer to that question is, most likely, no. This is critical, because if he moves to another position, his offense has to play better, in order for him to retain the same value. He probably lacks the arm strength for CF, which is the only good fit in the outfield, as he doesn't have the power to play a corner outfield position. Ok, so let's say that he moves to 2ND. There, his arm would be more than adequate, but his best defensive tool, which is his great range, would be of much less value. Moreover, his hands would still limit his ability to provide more than average defense. He seems to be a very athletic, speedster, who has a lot of natural ability to hit, but even there, still lacks good pitch recognition, plate discipline, ideal mechanics and power. Sox fans have seen this "movie" all too many times before. Very athletic kid, from another sport, who has some great tools, but not much background as a baseball player. Joe Borchard, Jared Mitchell, Trayce Thompson and the like, have not fulfilled the promise, and I fear that Anderson may be yet another in that mold. I'd much prefer to have an elite defensive SS, who learns to hit and get on base. Omar Vizquel is the ideal model, for that scenario. He could always field, but started very poorly, with the bat. In time, he became a very good hitter. I'm hoping that Rondon is closer to that kind of player. I think that it's more feasible to take an elite defensive SS and teach him to be a decent contact hitter, than it is to take a natural, albeit raw, offensive talent, and teach him to become an elite defender at SS. People, PLEASE stop using minor league errors as some sort of gauge that someone isn't able to play a position. As has been said before, plenty of MiLB SS's have had high error totals, and turned into good or great ML SS's. And since Omar was mentioned, look up his minor league fielding numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlSoxfan Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 02:49 AM) If the Sox are going to give up the talent being discussed, then use it on a guy like Eovaldi. He easily has the stuff to be a #3 and has not turned 25 yet. Would like to see what Coop can do with him. He doesn't walk a lot of batters and had Salty for a catcher, so Eovaldi deserves some slack. I mean, Salty suuuuucked last season. As for Samardzija, I think Boston outbids the White Sox. Boston has more to offer in a trade and is much more desperate for pitching. I think you're right about Boston outbidding us. Doesn't look good for them with Lester right now so they're gonna be desperate. I do like Eovaldi somewhat but I'm thinkin the Marlins are looking for LH power an we're not lookin so good there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 08:05 AM) People, PLEASE stop using minor league errors as some sort of gauge that someone isn't able to play a position. As has been said before, plenty of MiLB SS's have had high error totals, and turned into good or great ML SS's. And since Omar was mentioned, look up his minor league fielding numbers. That was a good suggestion, and I did indeed just look at his Minor League fielding stats. He never performed anywhere near as poorly as Anderson did. Moreover, have you ever seen a scouting report that suggests Anderson even has the tools to become an elite SS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lasttriptotulsa Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 06:59 AM) This will likely be regarded as heresy, among the White Sox faithful, but I don't regard Tim Anderson as anywhere near untouchable. If he were an elite defensive shortstop, with a strong arm and great hands, I would value him as much as most seem to. However, the reality is that he has an average, to below average arm, and just average hands. His 31 errors in 302 chances, last year at Winston Salem, validate the scouting reports that question whether or not he will be able to stick at SS. Being able to "stick" at SS is not the question for me. My question is; does he have the ability to provide elite defense at SS? The answer to that question is, most likely, no. This is critical, because if he moves to another position, his offense has to play better, in order for him to retain the same value. He probably lacks the arm strength for CF, which is the only good fit in the outfield, as he doesn't have the power to play a corner outfield position. Ok, so let's say that he moves to 2ND. There, his arm would be more than adequate, but his best defensive tool, which is his great range, would be of much less value. Moreover, his hands would still limit his ability to provide more than average defense. He seems to be a very athletic, speedster, who has a lot of natural ability to hit, but even there, still lacks good pitch recognition, plate discipline, ideal mechanics and power. Sox fans have seen this "movie" all too many times before. Very athletic kid, from another sport, who has some great tools, but not much background as a baseball player. Joe Borchard, Jared Mitchell, Trayce Thompson and the like, have not fulfilled the promise, and I fear that Anderson may be yet another in that mold. I'd much prefer to have an elite defensive SS, who learns to hit and get on base. Omar Vizquel is the ideal model, for that scenario. He could always field, but started very poorly, with the bat. In time, he became a very good hitter. I'm hoping that Rondon is closer to that kind of player. I think that it's more feasible to take an elite defensive SS and teach him to be a decent contact hitter, than it is to take a natural, albeit raw, offensive talent, and teach him to become an elite defender at SS. I don't think anybody is really saying he's untouchable, it's just that most aren't willing to give up a guy who should be a top 100 prospect this year and key figure in our future plans, for one year of control on a starter who has only had one good year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 So, if I've read through this thread correctly, Samardzija has only one year left on his deal. If the Sox (or any team for that matter) traded for him, they would have an opportunity to extend him. But, I get the feeling that he'd want to test the free agent market. So, would the team have to make a qualifying offer to receive a draft pick if he signs elsewhere? And if that's the case, is it worth trading an Alexei or Anderson to get him? I have mixed feelings about this. It seems like if the Sox trade Alexei, they're hurting 2015. But if they trade Anderson, they're hurting 2016 and beyond. I don't know that one year with a (slim) possibility of an extention for Samardzija would be worth it. Is he expected to get $15+ million a year after 2015? I don't see the Sox doing that, especially in a lengthy deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldsox Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 08:05 AM) People, PLEASE stop using minor league errors as some sort of gauge that someone isn't able to play a position. As has been said before, plenty of MiLB SS's have had high error totals, and turned into good or great ML SS's. And since Omar was mentioned, look up his minor league fielding numbers. Right. And this includes Luis Aparicio, who had some rough edges at SS his first year. If not traded, Anderson looks like he will be the SS here for many years once he takes over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabiness42 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 So, if I've read through this thread correctly, Samardzija has only one year left on his deal. If the Sox (or any team for that matter) traded for him, they would have an opportunity to extend him. But, I get the feeling that he'd want to test the free agent market. So, would the team have to make a qualifying offer to receive a draft pick if he signs elsewhere? And if that's the case, is it worth trading an Alexei or Anderson to get him? I have mixed feelings about this. It seems like if the Sox trade Alexei, they're hurting 2015. But if they trade Anderson, they're hurting 2016 and beyond. I don't know that one year with a (slim) possibility of an extention for Samardzija would be worth it. Is he expected to get $15+ million a year after 2015? I don't see the Sox doing that, especially in a lengthy deal. Yes, if the Sox acquired Samardzija they would have to extend a qualifying offer at the end of the 2015 season in order to receive a draft pick, but that's a no-brainer. A healthy Samardzija is never taking a 1 year $16M (estimated) deal, and even if he did, that would still be fine as far as the Sox are concerned. So ultimately, you are trading for one year of Samardzija plus a draft pick, and Beane is certainly going to take that into account in calculating his return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 For a one year rental player, I'd pay Leury Garcia and Erik Johnson and see if they will bite on Leury's speed and versatilty and EJ being a former top 100 prospect. If we can't get Beane to budge on that, I'd maybe throw in Jordan Danks and Andre Rienzo and see if we can fool them into that trade.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (glangon @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:19 AM) For a one year rental player, I'd pay Leury Garcia and Erik Johnson and see if they will bite on Leury's speed and versatilty and EJ being a former top 100 prospect. If we can't get Beane to budge on that, I'd maybe throw in Jordan Danks and Andre Rienzo and see if we can fool them into that trade.... Billy Beane would laugh hysterically as he hung up the phone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (oldsox @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 08:18 AM) Right. And this includes Luis Aparicio, who had some rough edges at SS his first year. If not traded, Anderson looks like he will be the SS here for many years once he takes over. Well, "Old Sox," I really am an "old" Sox fan, and I remember when Aparicio broke into the Big Leagues. He was always considered a very talented defensive shortstop. He certainly never produced a sub .900 fielding %. Anderson made 31 errors in 302 chances. That is just terrible. I'll concede that he may become a decent SS. However, he has an very long way to go to ever become elite, and his arm will likely preclude that from happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:13 AM) That was a good suggestion, and I did indeed just look at his Minor League fielding stats. He never performed anywhere near as poorly as Anderson did. Moreover, have you ever seen a scouting report that suggests Anderson even has the tools to become an elite SS? Defensively? No. Offensively? Maybe so. Brandon Phillips type profile. Not a guy you give up for a rental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCCWS Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Dec 1, 2014 -> 05:06 PM) Derek Jeter had a .976 career fielding percentage. Ozzie Smith had a .978 career fielding percentage. Derek Jeter is comparable to Ozzie Smith. I do know the Top 10 second basemen all finished higher than .975. So a minor leaguer fielding at .950 has a long way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (Lillian @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:28 AM) Well, "Old Sox," I really am an "old" Sox fan, and I remember when Aparicio broke into the Big Leagues. He was always considered a very talented defensive shortstop. He certainly never produced a sub .900 fielding %. Anderson made 31 errors in 302 chances. That is just terrible. I'll concede that he may become a decent SS. However, he has an very long way to go to ever become elite, and his arm will likely preclude that from happening. Clueulis Rondon is one of best defensive SS's in the minor leagues. Go look at how many errors he has. Guys that get to a lot of baseball's make errors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Trading Anderson, who all scouts say has the tools to be a good defensive SS and a possibly elite bat, for Samardzjia would be idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 From what i have read, Beane wants hitters. I dont really think he is sweating over defensive liabilities right now, especially since he just signed Billy Butler to DH and pretend to play first QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:34 AM) Trading Anderson, who all scouts say has the tools to be a good defensive SS and a possibly elite bat, for Samardzjia would be idiotic. is it idiotic if Shark extends immediately? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamshack Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 05:34 AM) From what i have read, Beane wants hitters. I dont really think he is sweating over defensive liabilities right now, especially since he just signed Billy Butler to DH and pretend to play first is it idiotic if Shark extends immediately? Depends at what price. Assuming the Sox would not extend him to something unreasonable, I still wouldn't like it, but I don't know if it could be called idiotic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:34 AM) From what i have read, Beane wants hitters. I dont really think he is sweating over defensive liabilities right now, especially since he just signed Billy Butler to DH and pretend to play first is it idiotic if Shark extends immediately? If it's JUST Anderson, maybe not, but I think it would be a poor decision. Just because Beane overpaid with Russell doesn't mean the Sox should. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlSoxfan Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 08:05 AM) People, PLEASE stop using minor league errors as some sort of gauge that someone isn't able to play a position. As has been said before, plenty of MiLB SS's have had high error totals, and turned into good or great ML SS's. And since Omar was mentioned, look up his minor league fielding numbers. Of course you're right but how often does an Omar come along? I think Lillian's correct otherwise an so do a number of scouts. I don't view Anderson as untouchable but I'm not sure I'd trade him for 1 yr. of Shark. It's a crapshoot IMO. I don't have the knowledge or crystal ball to make any decision. I have to trust in Hahn an root/hope/pray for us to make the playoffs in 2015 and beyond. Right now I think the Shark can help us do that, so maybe I got some KW in me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:38 AM) If it's JUST Anderson, maybe not, but I think it would be a poor decision. Just because Beane overpaid with Russell doesn't mean the Sox should. I dont know, to me Anderson isnt in the same stratosphere as Russell. Not even close. He is one of the better Sox prospects in a while, but Russell is elite right now. If Anderson went for a rental, I would be pissed. If Shark extended right away, im cool with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:34 AM) From what i have read, Beane wants hitters. I dont really think he is sweating over defensive liabilities right now, especially since he just signed Billy Butler to DH and pretend to play first is it idiotic if Shark extends immediately? If they traded Anderson for Samardzija with a new contract in hand then yes it'd be fine. But regardless of whether or not the Sox think they can sign Samardzija, they would be trading for 1 year of him. That has to be the price going the other way. The White Sox shouldn't give the A's more than market value for 1 year because they know that they can sign him for more years. It would still be Players x, y, z for 1 guaranteed year of Samardzija. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangon Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (pittshoganerkoff @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 01:22 PM) Billy Beane would laugh hysterically as he hung up the phone. Probably but if you showcase each of these players correctly, you may be able to get him for less that you thought you could play. For example, if you approach him promoting the speed and versatility of Leury and how he would fit Oakland's ethic. You then tell him about the promise of Erik Johnson and that he was a top 100 prospect that had a down year last year due to injury, then you mention the Charlotte total home run record holder in Jordan Danks and that as a sweetener you have the top pitcher in Brazil in Andre Rienzo. If Toronto can trade for Josh Donaldson for Brett Lawrie and a couple of prospects. Why can't we deal for a year of the Shark for 4 AAAA players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:40 AM) I dont know, to me Anderson isnt in the same stratosphere as Russell. Not even close. He is one of the better Sox prospects in a while, but Russell is elite right now. If Anderson went for a rental, I would be pissed. If Shark extended right away, im cool with it. Russell is one of the top 5 prospects in baseball. He was a top 10 prospect in the game when he was traded last year. That was a really bad trade last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (SCCWS @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:31 AM) I do know the Top 10 second basemen all finished higher than .975. So a minor leaguer fielding at .950 has a long way to go. This is to Lillian's point too, but fielding percentage is an absolutely terrible way of evaluating players defensive capabilities. I just proved that with the Jeter/Smith comparison. Semien doesn't have a long way to go defensively. Lillian, evaluating a players defensive ability based on errors in the minors is like looking at a rookie quarterback's interception total and saying "he'll never make it as a quarterback." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogan873 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 2, 2014 -> 07:40 AM) I dont know, to me Anderson isnt in the same stratosphere as Russell. Not even close. He is one of the better Sox prospects in a while, but Russell is elite right now. If Anderson went for a rental, I would be pissed. If Shark extended right away, im cool with it. I agree here. If Anderson were traded for Shark and he didn't extend right away, we'd be waiting all season to see what he'd do. And if he goes to free agency, I don't think the Sox have a great chance to re-sign him. If the Sox extend him right away to a decent contract, I could see it being a good deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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