Michael Saunders

[greg775]

Here was what Alejandro De Aza did in June of 2014. I do not recall which team he was playing for at the time or who his manager was, but I believe it was the Chicago White Sox and Robin Ventura.

 

.365/.423/.540/.962, 71 plate appearances

 

Here is what he did with the Baltimore Orioles.

 

.293/.341/.537/.878, 89 plate appearances

 

Interesting. So the bottom line is DeAza is a better option than anybody we've been discussing.

[Eminor3rd]

Why don't you show the post you actually dismissed my Steamer numbers. Feeky uses Steamer. You have used it a few times. The only time I see you fighting against it is when it says Victor Martinez should be really good next year and it goes against your argument that 36 year olds shouldn't be playing major league baseball.

 

I did! Did you even read what I just posted? The first post I made was the first post that started the conversation! You used Steamer to argue that Victor Martinez was going to beat his career averages next year, but THEN you decried Balta or whoever it was by saying that if he wants to use FanGraphs, he shouldn't pick and choose numbers. Because you saw Steamer on FanGraphs.

 

The only issue I had was you implying that Steamer projections are as reliable or completely in line with everything that FanGraphs is. My point was that in a few months, you'll see two other projection systems there too, at least one of which is considered better, and that to disagree with Steamer is not necessarily to disagree with FanGraphs in general.

 

I don't know how else to say this. Use Steamer! Just don't make the mistake of assuming the validity of Steamer is the same as the valididty of, say "wRC+" or something.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[witesoxfan]

Interesting. So the bottom line is DeAza is a better option than anybody we've been discussing.

 

No, not necessarily, because De Aza is a guy who seemingly plays and performs below his talent level. I believe that you can make a legitimate, straight-faced argument that Alejandro De Aza was the most talented outfielder on the White Sox major league roster last year - he's got a fairly quick bat, he hits line drives all over, he can hit the ball out of the park, and he is both quick and fast. I won't necessarily make the argument, but someone could. However, he does a lot of bad baseball kind of things - makes base running mistakes, fails to properly read balls, takes bad routes to balls, makes bad throws, swings too hard, doesn't work counts, takes bad swings, doesn't read pitches well out of pitchers' hands, plus any other number of things. Plus, he's starting to get old.

 

I would have had no problem with De Aza returning, but there's not much of a future for him in baseball...maybe 1-3 years as a starter left, 3-6 years as a 4th outfielder? Something like that. Not someone you can count on for longevity or to be here for a while. It made sense to get what they could for him this year.

[GreenSox]

Well, the homers are less, but you'll notice that Saunders actually has a higher SLG.

 

Which really just underscores the issue with Viciedo, which is that he doesn't hit enough to take advantage of his power. He clearly HAS more power than Saunders, but it actually PLAYS lower.

yea, some of that can be park related too. Cell's not a double's park; Safeco isn't a homer park.

Saunders looks like a Gillaspie type hitter honestly, and kind of marginal for a corner position, but certainly useful. That's a reason why I've wondered if Gillaspie could play a decent LF

I would think Hahn might ferret out another Gillaspie - decent player blocked - before going for some of those real bottom feeding FAs that Cameron suggests.

Edited November 7, 2014 by GreenSox

[southsider2k5]

Why don't you show the post you actually dismissed my Steamer numbers. Feeky uses Steamer. You have used it a few times. The only time I see you fighting against it is when it says Victor Martinez should be really good next year and it goes against your argument that 36 year olds shouldn't be playing major league baseball.

 

lol, what? I'd love to see where that was said.

[GreenSox]

Interesting. So the bottom line is DeAza is a better option than anybody we've been discussing.

It appeared, at least to me, that De Aza 1/2 a$$ed it a lot. Perhaps simply playing for a contender inspired him. We did sell low on him, although his horrendous start was a big reason; also, I sensed that the Sox wanted him, like Rios the year before (also sold low) simply off the team.

Anyway, De Aza certainly does look competitive with the available players...that's a testament to the poor availability of players these days and how the Sox let their org deteriorate for a while.

[Y2Jimmy0]

No mention of the White Sox here: http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/11/7/7175...eams-interested

[Vance Law]

Interesting. So the bottom line is DeAza is a better option than anybody we've been discussing.

 

The point is that your statement didn't make any sense. The facts showed this when you made the statement weeks ago. Those facts haven't changed when you decided to say the same incorrect thing today.

[Vance Law]

yea, some of that can be park related too. Cell's not a double's park; Safeco isn't a homer park.

Saunders looks like a Gillaspie type hitter honestly, and kind of marginal for a corner position, but certainly useful. That's a reason why I've wondered if Gillaspie could play a decent LF

I would think Hahn might ferret out another Gillaspie - decent player blocked - before going for some of those real bottom feeding FAs that Cameron suggests.

 

He hit 19 homers at Safeco the year he got his most playing time. Safeco is the worst (or 2nd worst) park in baseball to hit home runs in. The home run hitting environment is very different than it was a few short years ago. 57 players hit 20 home runs this year. In 2009, 87 players hit 20 home runs.

Edited November 7, 2014 by Vance Law

[BlackSox13]

He hit 19 homers at Safeco the year he got his most playing time. Safeco is the worst (or 2nd worst) park in baseball to hit home runs in. The home run hitting environment is very different than it was a few short years ago. ,57 players hit 20 home runs this year. In 2009, 87 players hit 20 home runs.

This is along the I'm thinking as well. If the Sox are interested in picking up Saunders, its because they project him to hit for more power at hitter friendly US Cellular. Plus he's a LH bat and a defensive upgrade over Tank.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

Last year, it made sense for both organizations to give both players the old college try for one more season. I think both organizations are tired of their respective player.

 

Viciedo, Phegley, and Wilkins for Saunders and Maurer. Do it, it's the perfect collection of garbage that every fan will orgasm with excitement.

[Vance Law]

This is along the I'm thinking as well. If the Sox are interested in picking up Saunders, its because they project him to hit for more power at hitter friendly US Cellular. Plus he's a LH bat and a defensive upgrade over Tank.

 

And if they could somehow get him with Tank being the centerpiece, that would be fantastic

[GGajewski18]

No mention of the White Sox here: http://www.mlbdailydish.com/2014/11/7/7175...eams-interested

 

Good.

 

Last year, it made sense for both organizations to give both players the old college try for one more season. I think both organizations are tired of their respective player.

 

Viciedo, Phegley, and Wilkins for Saunders and Maurer. Do it, it's the perfect collection of garbage that every fan will orgasm with excitement.

 

Lol this is so true. But I still don't want any part of Saunders. Like said before, I'd rather trade Viciedo for a comp pick.

[witesoxfan]

Good.

 

 

 

Lol this is so true. But I still don't want any part of Saunders. Like said before, I'd rather trade Viciedo for a comp pick.

 

I see no reason why a team would trade a competitive balance pick for Viciedo. It just doesn't make sense.

[southsider2k5]

Saunders doesn't strike me as anyone the Sox are interested in as a Plan A, B or maybe even C.

[witesoxfan]

Saunders doesn't strike me as anyone the Sox are interested in as a Plan A, B or maybe even C.

 

I think he'd be perfectly fine as a 4th outfielder. They may have other guys planned, but I don't think you necessarily have to pencil a specific name into those roles, just someone who is capable of doing them.

 

He strikes out a bit more than average, but it's nothing crippling, and he brings a fairly well rounded game to the table. If the Sox could get Saunders for Viciedo (or even Viciedo plus a small piece), I'd be all over it.

[BlackSox13]

And if they could somehow get him with Tank being the centerpiece, that would be fantastic

Absolutely. Normally I wouldn't be on board with the idea of Saunders but for some crazy reason I'm OK withe the idea of Rasmus so in my crazy little world, Saunders makes sense and more so than Rasmus.

[Vance Law]

Saunders doesn't strike me as anyone the Sox are interested in as a Plan A, B or maybe even C.

 

Who would you think is more plan A and B?

[GreenSox]

He hit 19 homers at Safeco the year he got his most playing time. Safeco is the worst (or 2nd worst) park in baseball to hit home runs in. The home run hitting environment is very different than it was a few short years ago. 57 players hit 20 home runs this year. In 2009, 87 players hit 20 home runs.

yes, and in the year he hit 19 homers, he checked in with a Viciedo-like .306 OBP. Apparently he has to cut back on the power stroke to get on base at an acceptable level.

Viciedo had a bad year last year, but most of his years are like Saunders.

he also strikes out like Viciedo does.

Like I said, Saunders looks like Conor Gillsapie.

Saunders is a good player, but not really what is needed in a corner position, unless you have the rest of them covered very well, which the Sox don't. He'd be an upgrade, but nothing to plunge over.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I really like what you say here. Saunders could be a very good alternative to spending money on Rasmus. That money could be spent somewhere else and get rid of Tank and his salary.

 

I hope the Sox explore this possibility.

Tank $2.8M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 26 on 3/10/ 2015 , Bats RH , Nickname Tank

Saunders $2.3M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 28 on 11/19/2014 , Bats LH , Nickname "The Condor"

 

I've been championing Saunders for quite a while now as that low salaried , LH, good defense guy entering prime for RF with a move of Avi to left. Wish the guy could stay healthy though . But I know many of us want the defense to improve and thats why I targeted him in the 1st place and for all the other reasons I just mentioned . Seems like many teams want him so doubtful just Viciedo gets him.

 

 

Saunders video highlights including just about everything you'd like to see http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/search/med...10&c_id=mlb

 

Sales nickname is also "The Condor" in some circles. Don't see it used here much but it is on SSS.

 

There are going to be positions that can have a slim upgrade which I think Saunders is over Viciedo . Better defense is key for me here along with hitting LH but has to stay healthy. He hasn't exactly piled up the AB's in his career yet so it's hard to say what he could produce over a full season.

Edited November 8, 2014 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Vance Law]

Apparently he has to cut back on the power stroke to get on base at an acceptable level.

great. he made a change and has become a more valuable player and hitter

 

yes, and in the year he hit 19 homers, he checked in with a Viciedo-like .306 OBP.

Viciedo had a bad year last year, but most of his years are like Saunders.

he also strikes out like Viciedo does.

Like I said, Saunders looks like Conor Gillsapie.

Saunders is a good player, but not really what is needed in a corner position, unless you have the rest of them covered very well, which the Sox don't. He'd be an upgrade, but nothing to plunge over.

 

Viciedo had a bad career so far. Viciedo has never gotten on base at an acceptable level. His career walk rate is 5.3% compared to Saunders 9.2. Even if he could manage to hit like Saunders, there's such an enormous difference in their defense, again, Tank has to be one of the best hitters in the league in order to provide much value. And if you're saying Saunders 8 home runs last year makes him "like Gillaspie" you've failed to note he did that in half a season (and in baseball's worst home run hitting park and worst hitting park overall).

 

Who do you suggest as an acceptable upgrade at one of the corners?

 

edit: on the prospect of Saunders at The Cell, here's his OPS in AWAY games the last 3 years

 

2012 .793

2013 .759

2014 .796

 

Edited November 8, 2014 by Vance Law

[GreenSox]

First, I have no objection to flipping Viciedo for him. do I think that Viciedo has more upside. Yes, but he's yet to grab it.

through c. 1700 at bats, Saunders has a career OPS of .685.

Viciedo, with a similar number of at bats, is .722.

Saunders is off of a career year (although with 1/2 season of at bats and some significant split differentials) so he may be on the upswing.

 

I have no suggestion. I don't want rents, I don't want decliners, and I don't want to trade real assets for guys like Saunders who is okay but that's it. Switch him with Viciedo or something? Fine.

Have to wait for a good FA class (terrible in the outfield this year) and for the farm to develop depth.

Maybe Hahn can find an undervalued player like Eaton was in CF.

 

Edited November 8, 2014 by GreenSox

[peavy44]

First, I have no objection to flipping Viciedo for him. do I think that Viciedo has more upside. Yes, but he's yet to grab it.

through c. 1700 at bats, Saunders has a career OPS of .685.

Viciedo, with a similar number of at bats, is .722.

Saunders is off of a career year (although with 1/2 season of at bats and some significant split differentials) so he may be on the upswing.

 

I have no suggestion. I don't want rents, I don't want decliners, and I don't want to trade real assets for guys like Saunders who is okay but that's it. Switch him with Viciedo or something? Fine.

Have to wait for a good FA class (terrible in the outfield this year) and for the farm to develop depth.

Maybe Hahn can find an undervalued player like Eaton was in CF.

 

 

 

 

How about this guy?

[BlackSox13]

Tank $2.8M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 26 on 3/10/ 2015 , Bats RH , Nickname Tank

Saunders $2.3M in 2014 ,Arb eligible now , 28 on 11/19/2014 , Bats LH , Nickname "The Condor"

 

I've been championing Saunders for quite a while now as that low salaried , LH, good defense guy entering prime for RF with a move of Avi to left. Wish the guy could stay healthy though . But I know many of us want the defense to improve and thats why I targeted him in the 1st place and for all the other reasons I just mentioned . Seems like many teams want him so doubtful just Viciedo gets him.

 

 

Saunders video highlights including just about everything you'd like to see http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/search/med...10&c_id=mlb

 

Sales nickname is also "The Condor" in some circles. Don't see it used here much but it is on SSS.

 

There are going to be positions that can have a slim upgrade which I think Saunders is over Viciedo . Better defense is key for me here along with hitting LH but has to stay healthy. He hasn't exactly piled up the AB's in his career yet so it's hard to say what he could produce over a full season.

 

Thanks for posting the link. I enjoyed watching the highlites.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I'd rather trade for Saunders than sign Rasmus.

 

I love the idea of playing Avi in LF too. If the sox for some crazy reason did make a trade for Cargo, the DH spot could be used to give guys a day off from the playing field. Might help keep all four out fielders healthy.

 

Its something to keep in mind anyway.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Thanks for posting the link. I enjoyed watching the highlites.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I'd rather trade for Saunders than sign Rasmus.

 

I love the idea of playing Avi in LF too. If the sox for some crazy reason did make a trade for Cargo, the DH spot could be used to give guys a day off from the playing field. Might help keep all four out fielders healthy.

 

Its something to keep in mind anyway.

You're welcome. 4 decent OF's and a rotating DH has also run through my mind considering the long odds of landing VMart. I would prefer that and having the flexibility to a full time DH if VMart is unattainable.