white sox heavily in the left handed relief market

[Chicago White Sox]

I like Miller and would love to have him, but $8M+ just seems like too like money for us to spend on a reliever. We need to a starter and two decent bats and those guys will eat a lot of money. Zach Duke at a fraction of the cost seems like the smarter play IMO.

[Dick Allen]

I know it sounds like a nice easy thing to do, oh just don't blow 1/2 of those saves, but go a step deeper. Exactly 1 team in all of MLB had 11 blown saves or fewer - the Padres. Even the Royals tallied more blown saves than that.

 

So to say yours a different way, "If their bullpen was replaced by a bullpen even better than the Royals, they'd have been above .500!".

 

Does that put into context how truly huge of a jump that would require?

You aren't taking everthing into account.

Teams that win more games have more save opportunities. The Royals save percentage was over 80. The White Sox was barely 60. Oakland, Hoistin and Colorado were worse. And that is just save opportunities. No telling how many other games that were either tied or they were trailing by a run and might have been able to win except for bullpen failure.

[BlackSox13]

I know it sounds like a nice easy thing to do, oh just don't blow 1/2 of those saves, but go a step deeper. Exactly 1 team in all of MLB had 11 blown saves or fewer - the Padres. Even the Royals tallied more blown saves than that.

 

So to say yours a different way, "If their bullpen was replaced by a bullpen even better than the Royals, they'd have been above .500!".

 

Does that put into context how truly huge of a jump that would require?

Yes it does. I admit, I did not realize it would require that big of a jump. However, the Sox have plenty of money and there's plenty of quality relievers on both the FA and trade markets.

 

Another thing that will help in that category is a better offense. A better offense will be able to help maintain a lead even if the bullpen allows some runs to score therefore bailing out the bullpen.

 

Help me out on this but wouldn't Detroit be an example of a bad pen that was bailed out by the offense?

Edited November 16, 2014 by StRoostifer

[Whisox05]

Ya Detroit's offense had to bail out the bullpen but did you see them in the playoffs. The bullpen did them in and got them knocked out. look at the giants and royals who made the world series had good deep bullpens. Even if the Sox upgrade the bullpen they need to make sure the starting staff is good as well. Got to remember the bad bullpen was the domino effect of losing 5 pitchers (3 starters and 2 relievers) from the opening day roster in the first month alone. They lost another 2 more original relievers in may and another in june. losing guys due to injuries and ineffectiveness cause guys to more out of the normal roles and may not succeed as well. even if the sox do upgrades to the bullpen they need to make sure the starting staff is good enough to go deep into games otherwise they will tax the bullpen they just upgraded. the full staff needs to be good for the sox to compete.

Edited November 16, 2014 by WhiteSoxLifer

[Baron]

They also don't need to pay a guy 8-10 million a year for 60 innings. Not that 60 innings are even guaranteed for Miller. He'll throw 60ish if he doesn't get hurt or his control doesn't regress to his career norms. Bullpens are far too spontaneous and random to put that much weight into what happened last year. In fact, Andrew Miller is a great example of exactly that. 2014 he walked 2.5/9 and in the 2013 he walked twice as many as 5.0/9.

 

Obviously we need restructuring in the pen but that doesn't mean paying a ridiculous price for the best lefty in FA. I don't know what a "hefty sum" is for a reliever but if it's what Miller is going to get I'll take that bet. Give me one of Duke/Thather and one or two of Grilli/Hochevar/Chamberlain and I'll be happy.

 

Your worried about Miller regressing but not Duke? Theres obviously going to be a price difference but it's not like Duke is going to be paid the league minimum. Duke back to his usual getting shelled self with Joba Chamberlain...your right back to square 1.

Edited November 16, 2014 by Baron

[LDF]

Except they dont really need a Max Scherzer. They need relief pitching in the worst way and it seems they understand they have to put funds that way. How much do you want to bet that when they sign a relief pitcher it's going to be a hefty sum of money for over 2 years?

 

being able to afford a contract like Scherzer or Miller is a little vague in itself.

first as an org, yeah the sox can afford that type of contract. but as a team who

by all accounts is put on a budget even before the season ends, by the top

brass is another. now the sox will be addressing the needs of the org, while on a

budget, which they will have to bargain shop. bargain shopping is how we as fan

should look at it, except they will venture on a big name signing.

 

the where, who and at what position will the sox spend, only sox brass knows those

answers.

[LDF]

Ya Detroit's offense had to bail out the bullpen but did you see them in the playoffs.

The bullpen did them in and got them knocked out. look at the giants and royals who

made the world series had good deep bullpens. Even if the Sox upgrade the bullpen

they need to make sure the starting staff is good as well. Got to remember the bad

bullpen was the domino effect of losing 5 pitchers (3 starters and 2 relievers) from

the opening day roster in the first month alone. They lost another 2 more original relievers

in may and another in june. losing guys due to injuries and ineffectiveness cause guys to

more out of the normal roles and may not succeed as well. even if the sox do upgrades

to the bullpen they need to make sure the starting staff is good enough to go deep into games

otherwise they will tax the bullpen they just upgraded. the full staff needs to be good for the sox to compete.

 

the sox have a very weak 5 starting pitchers last yr.

this yr, the sox need a starting pitcher to slid in #3 and when Rodon

is ready, sox then can slid him into whatever role the sox wants him

in.

 

this team will be better when the team gets those fixes that everyone knows.

[Whisox05]

the sox have a very weak 5 starting pitchers last yr.

this yr, the sox need a starting pitcher to slid in #3 and when Rodon

is ready, sox then can slid him into whatever role the sox wants him

in.

 

this team will be better when the team gets those fixes that everyone knows.

 

the only really weak link last year was paulino which ended up true. but then sale got injured and johnson ended up blowing up. sofar the rotation right now is sale, quintana, danks, noesi and someone of bassitt/rodon etc. even if you sign someone and rodon isnt ready yet then you have still have danks and noesi in the rotation. honestly the sox better hope that rodon is ready to slide into the rotation. still not that good to compete if noesi and danks is your 4th/5th starter.

[Balta1701]

the only really weak link last year was paulino which ended up true. but then sale got injured and johnson ended up blowing up. sofar the rotation right now is sale, quintana, danks, noesi and someone of bassitt/rodon etc. even if you sign someone and rodon isnt ready yet then you have still have danks and noesi in the rotation. honestly the sox better hope that rodon is ready to slide into the rotation. still not that good to compete if noesi and danks is your 4th/5th starter.

Rodon has never pitched more than 130 innings in a season and that was a college level. He might well contribute even to a contending team, but you absolutely can't count on him to absorb a full season as a mid-rotation starter on a contending team. Someone else is going to have to provide some decent innings in that role for at least 2015.

[Whisox05]

Rodon has never pitched more than 130 innings in a season and that was a college level. He might well contribute even to a contending team, but you absolutely can't count on him to absorb a full season as a mid-rotation starter on a contending team. Someone else is going to have to provide some decent innings in that role for at least 2015.

 

So say rodon isn't ready to go into the rotation right off the bat, doesn't sox then technically need 2 starters plus sale and quintana to go into the rotation so that only one of danks/noesi is the 5th starter.

[Y2Jimmy0]

Sorry for being snobby but I'm having trouble with all the grammar, punctuation, and capitalization mistakes lately. Some of these posts are flat out tough to read. I hope some action happens soon.

[Balta1701]

So say rodon isn't ready to go into the rotation right off the bat, doesn't sox then technically need 2 starters plus sale and quintana to go into the rotation so that only one of danks/noesi is the 5th starter.

Correct. Unfortunately, the White Sox have so far been unwilling to say that Danks has a shot of being pushed out of the rotation.

 

I still am holding out some hope that Noesi, with a full offseason under coop, will continue to show some improvement and wind up a tolerable, back of the rotation piece.

[Baron]

Admittedly, Duke doesn't have a huge track record and I prefer Thatcher, but Duke has been solid out of the pen. The difference in contracts will be significant.

 

The difference in contracts will be significant for a reason. You have to pay for consistent production.

[Bob Sacamano]

Admittedly, Duke doesn't have a huge track record and I prefer Thatcher, but Duke has been solid out of the pen. The difference in contracts will be significant.

 

Grab Thatcher, Duke, and let Surkamp be long-relief. Three lefty options right there.

[caulfield12]

And then when you do get those guys like Downs or Scott Shields at the tail end of their careers....you're overpaying for career consistency when they're about ready to fall off a cliff from overuse.

[Whisox05]

I would rather have miller then thatcher or duke. First off miller will be turning 30 next year were as duke Is going to be 32 in april and thatcher is 33. Also if you look at the stats miller has put up since being moved to the pen has been pretty good and consistent. Thatchers era after being traded to the al this year ballooned to a 8.53. Dukes is very spotty over the years from being good to horrible. Plus miller has the lowest batting average against vs right and left handed batters.

Edited November 17, 2014 by WhiteSoxLifer

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I would rather have miller then thatcher or duke. First off miller will be turning 30 next year were as duke Is going to be 32 in april and thatcher is 33. Also if you look at the stats miller has put up since being moved to the pen has been pretty good and consistent. Thatchers era after being traded to the al this year ballooned to a 8.53. Dukes is very spotty over the years from being good to horrible. Plus miller has the lowest batting average against vs right and left handed batters.

 

I don't think anyone is questioning if Miller is better than Thatcher or Duke. What we are saying is that relievers are so random that going 2 yrs/$10M on Thatcher would be smarter than going 3 yrs/$33M on Miller, considering it's possible they could have similar seasons next year anyway.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Chilihead90

[LDF]

So say rodon isn't ready to go into the rotation right off the bat, doesn't sox then technically need 2 starters plus sale and quintana to go into the rotation so that only one of danks/noesi is the 5th starter.

 

No the sox need a 6 man rotation. Rodon is going to be like any new young major league

pitcher who will get tired out, arm tired. it happens to experience arms, and do you really

think it will not to Rodon. the sox coaches will have more of an idea how to handle him.

 

this is why the sox need an extra starting pitcher in the rotation. the prospect are

not ready to help. last yr hit to the overall pen should have taught the sox that.

[Whisox05]

I don't think anyone is questioning if Miller is better than Thatcher or Duke. What we are saying is that relievers are so random that going 2 yrs/$10M on Thatcher would be smarter than going 3 yrs/$33M on Miller, considering it's possible they could have similar seasons next year anyway.

 

You can save money by going with thatcher but again did you see his stats when he went from the dback to the angels. His era went to 8.53 . Left handed batters had a .289 batting average against him and right handers had a .298 average. I don't want to chance as him supposed to being the dominant left hander in the pen on any money or years.

[caulfield12]

Rodon will likely pitch in a regular rotation with occasional extra days at Charlotte...they won't ever risk him when the weather's iffy or send him back out after rain delays, etc.

 

Whenever he reaches some undefined number with the major league team in August or September...anywhere from 150-175ish IP, depending on how he responds to pitching every five days as opposed to mostly weekends in the ACC...they will shut him down.

 

I don't think they will ever go to that six man rotation in Chicago...unless something happens with Sale again and the White Sox are out of the race but can't totally shut down Chris since they'll need him to pitch 200+ innings when the Sox (hopefully) are competing for the division in 2016.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

...The Sox blew 21 save opportunities in 2014...

 

That's so depressing to actually see written out.

[Eminor3rd]

I would unquestionably prefer getting both Duke/Thatcher on 2yr deals than Miller at 4 years and $10m+ per.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the next time a four year deal for a reliever works out, it'll be the first. Or at least AMONG the first. I can't think of one right now.

[Balta1701]

That's so depressing to actually see written out.

6 teams had more blown saves than the white sox and 3 other teams had 21. 2 teams with 21 or more blown saves made wild card play in games. The median number of blown saves in MLB was 19.

[Swingandalongonetoleft]

That's surprising. I guess it just feels and sounds worse than it is. There was a period of time this past season where it felt like it was a daily occurrence.

[Balta1701]

That's surprising. I guess it just feels and sounds worse than it is. There was a period of time this past season where it felt like it was a daily occurrence.

We were not good or even decent by any stretch of the imagination, but the pen was not legendarily bad. Improving it will help, but improving the pen alone doesn't make the White Sox an 88 win team from the position they're at now.