Dioner Navarro?

[Dick Allen]

2015 Steamer projection

 

Navarro 0.3 WAR

Viciedo. 0.6 WAR

[Balta1701]

2015 Steamer projection

 

Navarro 0.3 WAR

Viciedo. 0.6 WAR

Actual WAR the last 2 years:

 

Viciedo: -0.8 fWAR

Navarro: 3.8 fWAR.

[caulfield12]

Actual WAR the last 2 years:

 

Viciedo: -0.8 fWAR

Navarro: 3.8 fWAR.

 

Which still doesn't necessarily mean Navarro's going to have nearly the impact Viciedo will the next 3-5 years.

 

It's just like the stock market. Past returns aren't necessarily an indicator of future performance. Caveat emptor.

[Dick Allen]

Actual WAR the last 2 years:

 

Viciedo: -0.8 fWAR

Navarro: 3.8 fWAR.

That iis in the past. When making trades and constructing a roster, what you will do is a little more important than what you did.

[caulfield12]

That iis in the past. When making trades and constructing a roster, what you will do is a little more important than what you did.

 

 

Uh-oh, we can actually agree on something for once.

 

 

"An ill wind comes arisin', across the cities and the plain/s

 

...acid rain, etc."

[Kalapse]

2015 Steamer projection

 

Navarro 0.3 WAR

Viciedo. 0.6 WAR

1. Navarro is projected for 0.4

2. Counting stat. 0.4 in 195 PA > 0.6 in 539 PA

[Balta1701]

Which still doesn't necessarily mean Navarro's going to have nearly the impact Viciedo will the next 3-5 years.

 

It's just like the stock market. Past returns aren't necessarily an indicator of future performance. Caveat emptor.

Do you guys genuinely think that Viciedo is going to be a significantly improved player next year? I certainly don't. Please someone tell me where he's going to actually make progress next year.

[Bob Sacamano]

Considering people here want to non-tender Viciedo, I would take Navarro for him at least.

[caulfield12]

Do you guys genuinely think that Viciedo is going to be a significantly improved player next year? I certainly don't. Please someone tell me where he's going to actually make progress next year.

 

You trapped yourself with this response.

 

Not with this coaching staff.

 

I know one thing...the Royals' staff would never tolerate the play we've seen out of him the last two years when he was quite decent in 2012. How do you explain that regression? It's not physical, it's almost completely mental/psychological. To my knowledge, putting on 5-10 extra pounds can't possibly be the reason.

Edited November 20, 2014 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

You trapped yourself with this response.

 

Not with this coaching staff.

 

I know one thing...the Royals' staff would never tolerate the play we've seen out of him the last two years when he was quite decent in 2012. How do you explain that regression? It's not physical, it's almost completely mental/psychological. To my knowledge, putting on 5-10 extra pounds can't possibly be the reason.

I completely agree with you which is why I'm surprised the two of you insisted he would make a major step forward next year. I'm ready to pull the plug and give up on him, non-tendering him in 2 weeks, so if I got an expensive backup/platoon catcher out of it, I'd be plenty ok with that.

 

Maybe another team could get something out of him, but I have no longer any confidence that he'll be anything other than a complete disaster as a player for the White Sox.

[BlackSox13]

I realy don't see the objection here. Tank began his career as a 3B which he could not hack, then moved to RF which he could not hack and finally over to LF with the same result as the previous two. Without a position Tank needs to hit which is something else he's not been able to do outside of his power.

 

Every year I hear fans claim that Tank will come around and yet we get the same crap over and over. To be honest, it sounds too much like cub fans with their " wait til next year" crap.

 

If the Sox can trade Tank for Navarro then do it. Tank has become a bobblehead paper weight on the desk of the Chicago White Sox. If the Sox can move him for a player that can help the 2015 team, then it must be done. I don't see the problem with trading him when considering he's been speculated to be a DFA candidate.

Edited November 20, 2014 by StRoostifer

[hi8is]

Long time supporter of Tank here and even I've had enough. Started wanting him gone at the deadline of 2013 and all out gave up at the deadline in 2014.

 

Disappointing... You are Dayan.

-Yoda

[shysocks]

Two of them actually. Melky and Rasmus.

Yup, thank you. Oversight on my part.

 

Compare the career stats for Navarro and Viciedo. Then, take into consideration that Navarro has had 5 years, in his prime, between ages 25 and 30.

Viciedo is just 25, and has his prime years ahead of him. I think it's reasonable to assume that Viciedo should improve his career stats over the next 5 years, while Navarro is likely passing his prime.

 

I'm not at all opposed to trading Dayan, but I'd think that they can get a better player for him. He still holds promise, which Navarro lacks. Navarro is what he is. I don't see any reason to expect him

to improve going forward. There are probably teams who believe Viciedo can still become a potent offensive player. That may, or may not be the case, but a 25 year old, who has already had two

seasons of 20 plus homers, one in fact with 25, might be tempting to a GM, looking for a RH power hitter.

You neglected to mention that Navarro has put up those numbers as a catcher, while Viciedo did it as a (particularly bad) corner outfielder. There's a huge difference there. And the thing about Viciedo's age is that it doesn't matter when he hasn't shown any improvement. I agree that a breakout is possible but it's been the same thing with him every year.

 

My stance is known. I've already got the hat picked out.

[caulfield12]

Adding Dioner Navarro is not going to make any type of significant difference to the White Sox challenging for the AL Central in 2016.

 

 

[Eminor3rd]

I value Viciedo at nothing, but I don't want to add catchers that are bad defensively.

[Dick Allen]

 

Here are Navarro's age 25-27 stats

 

25 .218/.261/.322

26 .194/.270/.258

27 .193/.276/.324

 

If he is so coveted now, wouldn't it suggest Viciedo can get better?

[Eminor3rd]

Here are Navarro's age 25-27 stats

 

25 .218/.261/.322

26 .194/.270/.258

27 .193/.276/.324

 

If he is so coveted now, wouldn't it suggest Viciedo can get better?

 

In the sense that anything is possible, yes.

[Dick Allen]

In the sense that anything is possible, yes.

I think Navarro is probably getting some banned help in his offensive production. Not that any team is totally clean. There are probably some real shockers out there, that aren't obvious. Pablo Ozuna is one. But it seems to me, Navarro can easily revert back to his age 25-27 production and actually be much worse than Tyler Flowers.

[harfman77]

I think people forget how young Viciedo still is, he sure does have room to improve to reach his ceiling.

 

He comps pretty well to how players like Bautista and Ortiz did through their age 25 seasons in a time where offensive production has regressed. There is still so much raw talent in that bat, I would hate to give it up only to see it get put together someplace else.

 

I understand I am in the minority here as many have moved on from Viciedo, but I still have hope that he can put things together. He has shown flashes, periods of time where his bat is dominant, but unforunately not very consistently and not as often as you would like, but I still have hope for him. So that being said, I would need a very interesting return to trade him, not a backup C with no real upside. I would take another change of scenery candidate or quality player that fills a hole along with a low level prospect.

 

 

[Bob Sacamano]

I think people forget how young Viciedo still is, he sure does have room to improve to reach his ceiling.

 

He comps pretty well to how players like Bautista and Ortiz did through their age 25 seasons in a time where offensive production has regressed. There is still so much raw talent in that bat, I would hate to give it up only to see it get put together someplace else.

 

I understand I am in the minority here as many have moved on from Viciedo, but I still have hope that he can put things together. He has shown flashes, periods of time where his bat is dominant, but unforunately not very consistently and not as often as you would like, but I still have hope for him. So that being said, I would need a very interesting return to trade him, not a backup C with no real upside. I would take another change of scenery candidate or quality player that fills a hole along with a low level prospect.

 

I think they could get another upside type player for him. Maybe a young starter or reliever or 2

[LDF]

I think people forget how young Viciedo still is, he sure does have room to improve to reach his ceiling.

 

He comps pretty well to how players like Bautista and Ortiz did through their age 25 seasons in a time where offensive production has regressed. There is still so much raw talent in that bat, I would hate to give it up only to see it get put together someplace else.

 

I understand I am in the minority here as many have moved on from Viciedo, but I still have hope that he can put things together. He has shown flashes, periods of time where his bat is dominant, but unforunately not very consistently and not as often as you would like, but I still have hope for him. So that being said, I would need a very interesting return to trade him, not a backup C with no real upside. I would take another change of scenery candidate or quality player that fills a hole along with a low level prospect.

 

either way, the should fine how much this arb is going to cost, but still go for

the trade >>>>> comp picks.

[southsider2k5]

I think people forget how young Viciedo still is, he sure does have room to improve to reach his ceiling.

 

He comps pretty well to how players like Bautista and Ortiz did through their age 25 seasons in a time where offensive production has regressed. There is still so much raw talent in that bat, I would hate to give it up only to see it get put together someplace else.

 

I understand I am in the minority here as many have moved on from Viciedo, but I still have hope that he can put things together. He has shown flashes, periods of time where his bat is dominant, but unforunately not very consistently and not as often as you would like, but I still have hope for him. So that being said, I would need a very interesting return to trade him, not a backup C with no real upside. I would take another change of scenery candidate or quality player that fills a hole along with a low level prospect.

 

With Dayan, it is all between the ears. If he would ever decide to watch and immitate Jose Abreu in his approach, he'd be one of the better power hitters in the game. He is so naturally strong, and has so much bat speed, he doesn't even have to swing for the LF pole. He hits so much better when he goes with the pitch, it isn't even funny. He could just wear out right and right center, which would make pitchers come back inside to him. Now they just sit away, and he flails at pitches that he can't do anything with on a pull swing.

[shysocks]

I think people forget how young Viciedo still is, he sure does have room to improve to reach his ceiling.

 

He comps pretty well to how players like Bautista and Ortiz did through their age 25 seasons in a time where offensive production has regressed. There is still so much raw talent in that bat, I would hate to give it up only to see it get put together someplace else.

 

I understand I am in the minority here as many have moved on from Viciedo, but I still have hope that he can put things together. He has shown flashes, periods of time where his bat is dominant, but unforunately not very consistently and not as often as you would like, but I still have hope for him. So that being said, I would need a very interesting return to trade him, not a backup C with no real upside. I would take another change of scenery candidate or quality player that fills a hole along with a low level prospect.

Jose Bautista only had 600 PA's by age 25; I don't think he's a comp at all. David Ortiz had a career .351 OBP and a 101 wRC+ through age 25; he knew how to hit. Viciedo doesn't, is sitting at a .298 OBP and 95 wRC+, and he's going in the wrong direction.

[harfman77]

With Dayan, it is all between the ears. If he would ever decide to watch and immitate Jose Abreu in his approach, he'd be one of the better power hitters in the game. He is so naturally strong, and has so much bat speed, he doesn't even have to swing for the LF pole. He hits so much better when he goes with the pitch, it isn't even funny. He could just wear out right and right center, which would make pitchers come back inside to him. Now they just sit away, and he flails at pitches that he can't do anything with on a pull swing.

 

I totally agree, and I am very interested to see how things work out now that Abreu will be spending his first off-season in the States. He has said he wants to be a leader and he appears to have the respect of Viciedo, so hopefully he can help influence Vicideos's approach going forward.

 

 

Jose Bautista only had 600 PA's by age 25; I don't think he's a comp at all. David Ortiz had a career .351 OBP and a 101 wRC+ through age 25; he knew how to hit. Viciedo doesn't, is sitting at a .298 OBP and 95 wRC+, and he's going in the wrong direction.

 

He only had 600 PA's because he struggled with ML pitching. Ortiz had 1200 and at his age 25 season put up a slash line of .234/.324/.475. That line is obviously better than Viciedos this season, however, the entire league was better offensively in 2001 than it is today. I am sure someone here knows where to find the differential factor between 2014 and 2001, but I think when applied, the numbers will not be all that different. I don't think hitting is Viciedos problem either, it is more being disciplined of when not to swing that gets him in trouble.

[Dick Allen]

Jose Bautista only had 600 PA's by age 25; I don't think he's a comp at all. David Ortiz had a career .351 OBP and a 101 wRC+ through age 25; he knew how to hit. Viciedo doesn't, is sitting at a .298 OBP and 95 wRC+, and he's going in the wrong direction.

Viciedo is a strange case. He just turned 20 when he was assigned to Birmingham. What would Courtney Hawkins have done in Birmingham this year?

 

There are flashes. Early in 2014 it looked like he turned a corner. Maybe another year of Steverson would do the trick. This guy seems to have a different hitting coach every year.

 

Steverson was quoted a couple of weeks ago saying how good Viciedo wants to be. You look at his physique and I one would tend to think he probably gets a little lazy, but apparently he is very hard working.

 

You aren't going to get much for him, unless he is some throw in with a bigger trade, which would be fine. If the option is to let him go for nothing or trade him for someone else's crap, I think sticking with him one more year makes sense. I did listen to a Hahn interview at the end of the season, and he was asked about Viciedo's status. He pretty much danced around it.