Chris Sale

[Eminor3rd]

Guys

 

You don't trade stars that are signed to the deals that Sale/Quintana are signed to. You literally cannot find better long-term assets. They are better than prospects.

 

You trade your stars that are market rate assets. We have already done this -- the only one left is Alexei. Trading Sale and signing Scherzer is NOT a wash because Scherzer takes up 25% of your payroll.

 

There is NO deal that we should accept that the Red Sox were willing to make for Chris Sale. Because the only deals we should except are deals that would make them worse.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[TheFutureIsNear]

You should want minimum 2 players that have had sustained success in the majors. And thats just the start.

 

You are punting at least the next 3 years making this deal.

 

Yeah because obviously trading 1 player who pitches every fifth day means we are punting for the next 3 years. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Kyyle23]

Yeah because obviously trading 1 player who pitches every fifth day means we are punting for the next 3 years. Makes perfect sense.

 

How many teams have pitchers like Sale that pitch every 5th day? How are the Sox supposed to replace that? By hoping that one of the prospects that comes back can come close to the production Sale provides?

[witesoxfan]

Yeah because obviously trading 1 player who pitches every fifth day means we are punting for the next 3 years. Makes perfect sense.

 

How are you taking yourself seriously right now? Chris Sale is arguably the best pitcher in the American League and you've reduced him to "1 player who pitches every fifth day." This isn't Hector Noesi we're talking about, and yes, trading Chris Sale right now means the White Sox are punting the next 3 years.

 

You never say anyone's untouchable, but that's only if someone wanted to give you an irrationally good deal. The Sox aren't going to be trading Chris Sale.

[southsider2k5]

How are you taking yourself seriously right now? Chris Sale is arguably the best pitcher in the American League and you've reduced him to "1 player who pitches every fifth day." This isn't Hector Noesi we're talking about, and yes, trading Chris Sale right now means the White Sox are punting the next 3 years.

 

You never say anyone's untouchable, but that's only if someone wanted to give you an irrationally good deal. The Sox aren't going to be trading Chris Sale.

 

All you have to do is look at Clayton Kershaw's extension as a starting point (remember Clayton didn't get that contract as a free agent) and think about what Chris Sale could get as a free agent to know what he is worth.

[TheFutureIsNear]

How are you taking yourself seriously right now? Chris Sale is arguably the best pitcher in the American League and you've reduced him to "1 player who pitches every fifth day." This isn't Hector Noesi we're talking about, and yes, trading Chris Sale right now means the White Sox are punting the next 3 years.

 

You never say anyone's untouchable, but that's only if someone wanted to give you an irrationally good deal. The Sox aren't going to be trading Chris Sale.

 

Because that's literally what he does lol...Please explain to me how he is not 1 player that pitches every 5th day? All I'm saying is that a starting C, SS, LF, a #3, and a #4 is > than 1 #1 SP. If you disagree that's fine, but it's my opinion. I'm clearly more of a gambling man myself and I also happen to really like Swihart, Bogarts, Betts, Ranaudo and Owens as prospects. To me its worth the risk and it could easily pay off huge as soon as 2016. but like I've said a bunch already, its never going to happen and its just a fun discussion. So everyone can get their panties out of a bunch about it.

[hogan873]

All you have to do is look at Clayton Kershaw's extension as a starting point (remember Clayton didn't get that contract as a free agent) and think about what Chris Sale could get as a free agent to know what he is worth.

It's amazing to think that the Sox have two pitchers who, if free agents, would be easily getting $150-$200 million contracts. The scary thought is, what happens when they are free agents.

[harfman77]

Guys

 

You don't trade stars that are signed to the deals that Sale/Quintana are signed to. You literally cannot find better long-term assets. They are better than prospects.

 

You trade your stars that are market rate assets. We have already done this -- the only one left is Alexei. Trading Sale and signing Scherzer is NOT a wash because Scherzer takes up 25% of your payroll.

 

There is NO deal that we should accept that the Red Sox were willing to make for Chris Sale. Because the only deals we should except are deals that would make them worse.

 

It does the Sox no good to have two really good starters signed to good contracts if the roster is not in a position to compete. If you have the opportunity to plug multiple roster holes at the same time and put the team into a place where it can contend, you absolutely must do it. Your window with Sale and Q is until 2019, and after that they will move on to a more competitive team with a larger payroll and all you will get in return is a draft pick. I don't think Sale can be traded as there isn't a way for a team to match his value, but the Sox need to think really hard about trading Q to help put the entire roster in a better position to compete in the window that Sale is still here.

[witesoxfan]

Because that's literally what he does lol...Please explain to me how he is not 1 player that pitches every 5th day? All I'm saying is that a starting C, SS, LF, a #3, and a #4 is > than 1 #1 SP. If you disagree that's fine, but it's my opinion. I'm clearly more of a gambling man myself and I also happen to really like Swihart, Bogarts, Betts, Ranaudo and Owens as prospects. To me its worth the risk and it could easily pay off huge as soon as 2016. but like I've said a bunch already, its never going to happen and its just a fun discussion. So everyone can get their panties out of a bunch about it.

 

Because using the literal definition of Chris Sale's job acts as if he's some average, run of the mill pitcher. He's not. He's arguably the most valuable pitcher in the league. It's like saying "all Jose Abreu does is go up there for 550 at bats, you can find all kinds of guys who can do that." That's obviously ludicrous.

 

The teams who make the trades for those elite players are the teams who win. The only one I can think that really worked for the trading team was the Bedard trade, and I don't think he was elite and I think the Mariners cashed in their chips too early for a guy who was not a guarantee.

[witesoxfan]

It does the Sox no good to have two really good starters signed to good contracts if the roster is not in a position to compete. If you have the opportunity to plug multiple roster holes at the same time and put the team into a place where it can contend, you absolutely must do it. Your window with Sale and Q is until 2019, and after that they will move on to a more competitive team with a larger payroll and all you will get in return is a draft pick. I don't think Sale can be traded as there isn't a way for a team to match his value, but the Sox need to think really hard about trading Q to help put the entire roster in a better position to compete in the window that Sale is still here.

 

The White Sox have until 2019, in your own words, to do anything with the Sale/Quintana tandem. You do realize that next year is 2015, right? The Sox trading a guy like Quintana with 4 years of control would require a package like the one people on here are talking about accepting for Chris Sale. The bare minimum I'd consider taking from Boston is Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and De La Rosa, and I'd have to think about that one for a very long time. And, given what the Red Sox can give up to get guys like Cueto, Latos, Hamels, Shields, McCarthy, Hammel, Lester, or Scherzer, why would they give up what would be required for Jose Quintana?

 

You never make anyone unavailable, but given what it would take to acquire those players, the Sox will essentially not trade Quintana or Sale.

[Eminor3rd]

It does the Sox no good to have two really good starters signed to good contracts if the roster is not in a position to compete. If you have the opportunity to plug multiple roster holes at the same time and put the team into a place where it can contend, you absolutely must do it. Your window with Sale and Q is until 2019, and after that they will move on to a more competitive team with a larger payroll and all you will get in return is a draft pick. I don't think Sale can be traded as there isn't a way for a team to match his value, but the Sox need to think really hard about trading Q to help put the entire roster in a better position to compete in the window that Sale is still here.

 

So when do you decide you're in a good position to compete? What does that actually look like? Collecting 25 year old superstars signed to laughably below market extensions IS rebuilding. That's the blueprint! We're one year into a rebuild, and you want to tear it down and rebuild?

 

Do people still actually believe that you can get a whole team of prospects to show up at the exact same time and be a winner?

 

There is no team in the league, at any given time, that cannot expect to compete within five years.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Eminor3rd

[Balta1701]

The White Sox have until 2019, in your own words, to do anything with the Sale/Quintana tandem. You do realize that next year is 2015, right? The Sox trading a guy like Quintana with 4 years of control would require a package like the one people on here are talking about accepting for Chris Sale. The bare minimum I'd consider taking from Boston is Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and De La Rosa, and I'd have to think about that one for a very long time. And, given what the Red Sox can give up to get guys like Cueto, Latos, Hamels, Shields, McCarthy, Hammel, Lester, or Scherzer, why would they give up what would be required for Jose Quintana?

 

You never make anyone unavailable, but given what it would take to acquire those players, the Sox will essentially not trade Quintana or Sale.

Just to add, for Quintana we actually have an option on him for 2020

[TheFutureIsNear]

Because using the literal definition of Chris Sale's job acts as if he's some average, run of the mill pitcher. He's not. He's arguably the most valuable pitcher in the league. It's like saying "all Jose Abreu does is go up there for 550 at bats, you can find all kinds of guys who can do that." That's obviously ludicrous.

 

The teams who make the trades for those elite players are the teams who win. The only one I can think that really worked for the trading team was the Bedard trade, and I don't think he was elite and I think the Mariners cashed in their chips too early for a guy who was not a guarantee.

 

Lol trying to have a conversation with you is like banging my head against a wall. I'm over this. Sale isn't getting traded and it's not worth my effort trying to engage in a logical discussion with you.

[witesoxfan]

Lol trying to have a conversation with you is like banging my head against a wall. I'm over this. Sale isn't getting traded and it's not worth my effort trying to engage in a logical discussion with you.

 

This is because the White Sox trading Chris Sale is illogical. That's why we're struggling to have a logical discussion.

[Southwest Sider]

For Chris Sale, an "enticing" package of "cobbled" together "guys who do little on a small scale" isn't enough.

 

I need an "extreme" package of "your best guys" put together who will "deplete your farm system". Plus Pedroia. I like that one. Thanks for suggesting it, HickoryHuskers :-)

Edited November 25, 2014 by South Sider

[The Ginger Kid]

LSD

[royoung]

We aren't even in the dog days of the off-season yet and we are bringing this up? I thought there was a tiny chance we traded Sale last off-season, but this year there is a zero percent chance we do. What Hahn would require back would decimate whatever team is trying to acquire him. Even the Red Sox.

 

Now Quintana...if Boston put together a monster package that might be a different story and plausible since he's supposedly been talked about with other teams this off-season already.

[witesoxfan]

We aren't even in the dog days of the off-season yet and we are bringing this up? I thought there was a tiny chance we traded Sale last off-season, but this year there is a zero percent chance we do. What Hahn would require back would decimate whatever team is trying to acquire him. Even the Red Sox.

 

Now Quintana...if Boston put together a monster package that might be a different story and plausible since he's supposedly been talked about with other teams this off-season already.

 

I think the problem with Quintana is that teams will be able to acquire similar or arguably better pitchers for lesser amounts. If the Red Sox offered Bogaerts, Cecchini, and Webster for Cueto right now (and it might not even have to be that much), the Reds would jump to make that trade in a second. The Sox would not even consider that trade as is for Quintana. I won't say Quintana or Cueto is better (I'd say Cueto, but I'd listen to arguments for Quintana too), so why would Boston want to pay more in terms of players when they aren't an organization that cares too much about how much they spend?

[Rowand44]

I think the problem with Quintana is that teams will be able to acquire similar or arguably better pitchers for lesser amounts. If the Red Sox offered Bogaerts, Cecchini, and Webster for Cueto right now (and it might not even have to be that much), the Reds would jump to make that trade in a second. The Sox would not even consider that trade as is for Quintana. I won't say Quintana or Cueto is better (I'd say Cueto, but I'd listen to arguments for Quintana too), so why would Boston want to pay more in terms of players when they aren't an organization that cares too much about how much they spend?

Exactly. A Quintana trade wont make sense for the Sox or the opposition because of that reasoning.

[iamshack]

ReD Sxo won the WS. So why would the White Sox give someone else a better chance ar a WS?

So you don't think the Marlins made out as well? Were the Marlins going to win the World Series that year if they held on to Beckett and Lowell?

[iamshack]

So when do you decide you're in a good position to compete? What does that actually look like? Collecting 25 year old superstars signed to laughably below market extensions IS rebuilding. That's the blueprint! We're one year into a rebuild, and you want to tear it down and rebuild?

 

Do people still actually believe that you can get a whole team of prospects to show up at the exact same time and be a winner?

 

There is no team in the league, at any given time, that cannot expect to compete within five years.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. There is not "one" blueprint. There may be "a" blueprint which has worked recently, but that doesn't make it "the" blueprint.

 

The name of the game is to win the World Series. The name of the game is to build sustained success. While I concede that having players like Sale and Quintana signed to the contracts that they are has extreme value, it has little value if the rest of the roster isn't strong enough to leverage that value into sustained success (as another poster also mentioned).

 

No one is going to disagree with you about Sale and Q being incredibly valuable. But their value is limited by the talent of the whole. While we are moving in the right direction, the talent of the whole still remains our problem here. If we could acquire other players to increase the value of the whole beyond what it would reasonably be with Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored. If we could bring back other versions of Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored.

 

We can sit and drool over the excess value we're getting from guys like Sale and Q until we've worked ourselves into a frenzy, but it doesn't win us anything.

 

I recognize that the odds of replacing the excess value Sale or Q bring by trading them may be unlikely - and that should be factored into the decision to trade them - but you simply cannot tell me that there is no trade of these players that could make sense for us, because it simply is not true.

[harfman77]

The White Sox have until 2019, in your own words, to do anything with the Sale/Quintana tandem. You do realize that next year is 2015, right? The Sox trading a guy like Quintana with 4 years of control would require a package like the one people on here are talking about accepting for Chris Sale. The bare minimum I'd consider taking from Boston is Bogaerts, Betts, Swihart, and De La Rosa, and I'd have to think about that one for a very long time. And, given what the Red Sox can give up to get guys like Cueto, Latos, Hamels, Shields, McCarthy, Hammel, Lester, or Scherzer, why would they give up what would be required for Jose Quintana?

 

You never make anyone unavailable, but given what it would take to acquire those players, the Sox will essentially not trade Quintana or Sale.

 

 

That is exactly the kind of deal I am talking about, though I would probably drop out Betts and replace him with JBJ and Henry Owens. If you can replace one guy on the roster with four guys that can be contributors, I think that the sum of their contribution will be worth more to the Sox than what Q is worth. If you don't get that type of return you don't make a deal. The reason they would give up that return is the value that is in the contract, each of the guys you mentioned are or will be free agents in the next year except Hamels. And spending more in prospects allows them to have money to go grab a second starting pitcher.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. There is not "one" blueprint. There may be "a" blueprint which has worked recently, but that doesn't make it "the" blueprint.

 

The name of the game is to win the World Series. The name of the game is to build sustained success. While I concede that having players like Sale and Quintana signed to the contracts that they are has extreme value, it has little value if the rest of the roster isn't strong enough to leverage that value into sustained success (as another poster also mentioned).

 

No one is going to disagree with you about Sale and Q being incredibly valuable. But their value is limited by the talent of the whole. While we are moving in the right direction, the talent of the whole still remains our problem here. If we could acquire other players to increase the value of the whole beyond what it would reasonably be with Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored. If we could bring back other versions of Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored.

 

We can sit and drool over the excess value we're getting from guys like Sale and Q until we've worked ourselves into a frenzy, but it doesn't win us anything.

 

I recognize that the odds of replacing the excess value Sale or Q bring by trading them may be unlikely - and that should be factored into the decision to trade them - but you simply cannot tell me that there is no trade of these players that could make sense for us, because it simply is not true.

 

Great post. I agree with this. Sale won't be traded but the reason is because nobody will be willing to give enough to get him. Look at the Dodgers for instance. The White Sox would ask for Puig, Pederson, Seager, and Urias. That's a package that the White Sox would actually have to consider I think. The Dodgers would never give that much though. There are teams that have the bullets to acquire Chris Sale but it would cost so many bullets that it just wouldn't be worth it for the acquiring team.

 

[harfman77]

I think the problem with Quintana is that teams will be able to acquire similar or arguably better pitchers for lesser amounts. If the Red Sox offered Bogaerts, Cecchini, and Webster for Cueto right now (and it might not even have to be that much), the Reds would jump to make that trade in a second. The Sox would not even consider that trade as is for Quintana. I won't say Quintana or Cueto is better (I'd say Cueto, but I'd listen to arguments for Quintana too), so why would Boston want to pay more in terms of players when they aren't an organization that cares too much about how much they spend?

 

Of course the Reds would make that trade, Cueto is a year away from FA. A year of a top arm is not worth the same as 5 years. Getting Cueto puts them in a position to have to fill that hole in the roster again next off-season. If they re-signed Cueto it would be at an amount that would make it tough to add someone else like Lester or Scherzer when they already have Panda and Hanley signed to large deals, yes they have a big budget, but it isn't limitless. I think they would prefer Hamels to Q, but if someone else gets him, the Red Sox will have to think hard on putting together a big deal for Q. They have the prospect depth to deal from without affecting their lineup and will use it to reinforce their rotation.

[Eminor3rd]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. There is not "one" blueprint. There may be "a" blueprint which has worked recently, but that doesn't make it "the" blueprint.

 

The name of the game is to win the World Series. The name of the game is to build sustained success. While I concede that having players like Sale and Quintana signed to the contracts that they are has extreme value, it has little value if the rest of the roster isn't strong enough to leverage that value into sustained success (as another poster also mentioned).

 

No one is going to disagree with you about Sale and Q being incredibly valuable. But their value is limited by the talent of the whole. While we are moving in the right direction, the talent of the whole still remains our problem here. If we could acquire other players to increase the value of the whole beyond what it would reasonably be with Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored. If we could bring back other versions of Sale or Q, that is something that needs to be explored.

 

We can sit and drool over the excess value we're getting from guys like Sale and Q until we've worked ourselves into a frenzy, but it doesn't win us anything.

 

I recognize that the odds of replacing the excess value Sale or Q bring by trading them may be unlikely - and that should be factored into the decision to trade them - but you simply cannot tell me that there is no trade of these players that could make sense for us, because it simply is not true.

 

Ok so our current situations is this: we have a handful of star-level players who are controllable and cheap. We can either (a) get rid of them for different players who are controllable and cheap and hopefully will reach star-level or (b) leverage the advantage that those players give us and actually try to win a World Series.

 

If your goal is to win a WS, option B is the only option. Option A is a perpetual cycle of "maybe next year." My point is NOT that you can win by ONLY acquiring assets with surplus value. That's impossible. My point IS that trading Sale or Quintana at this point is a characteristic of option A.

 

There is a point where Sale and Quintana should be traded. That point is somewhere around 2018 in the instance that those players may no longer fit into the plan for the next five years because they are older/less effective/no longer in possession of several years of below-market control.

 

We are ONE year into this current cycle of Hahn building a perpetual winner. We must stay the course. There is no realistic package that we can get for Chris Sale that will bring us closer to the WS than keeping Chris Sale, and we have not given this core a chance to win. It is not time to tear it down.