Merkin talks winter meetings and other possibilities

[GreenSox]

There are no pieces on the market right now that warrant the Sox overspending to get them because they will put the Sox over the top. The Sox have been very wise with their decision making and fiscal responsibility thus far, and when the time comes, the Sox will be able to open the purse strings a little bit.

 

This team had a $120 or so million payroll not that long ago. They can open the pocketbook, but for a retooling team, spending a boatload of money early on isn't really necessary.

That's true. (of course it's also true about gaining one year of a starter for scare projects - will not put them over the top - but may excite the naive).

And if it's $90 million because they believe that, we can expect more spending as the need arises.

If it's 90 million because JR is on the cheap, that's a different story.

[jasonxctf]

I'd suggest attendance is heavily reflective on the disposable income of those living in a 5 mile radius of the stadium. Especially for an 81 game home schedule. I don't think its a coincidence that when we were in the go-go 90's, Wrigley and its neighborhood grew exponentially. Property values skyrocketed, higher income people moved in, and attendance rose. And of course you need those higher incomes to offset the higher costs of attending games.

[southsider2k5]

It's not on par with the Harry Caray/Sportsvision/flawed Comiskey Park design debacles, but it's part of a long laundry list of things that have happened over the past 34 years which have contributed to the alienation of the fans.

 

BS

 

2005 happened. 3 million people showed up in 2006. Did 1.3 million of them go back to being mad about 1980? Please. If Sox fans are really still pissed about Harry Carey, the New Comiskey Park, White Flag, or any of that other BS, they really are the worst fans in baseball.

 

 

[LDF]

Then please explain to me why the Cubs draw well. They've had an even worse situation and yet they've never had any problem drawing fans.

 

it has been mention by me and some others, the northsiders draws b/c for some reason, they

have this mystic or draw that attract the fans, reporters local and national, and corp sponsorship.

they even make a saying, to embrace this losing. "Wait till Next YR".

 

the Sox fans, we are the minority, as the late great Bill Veeck, describe it, we are the workers, the

every day workers who works for a living, who has no dreams, but the dreams of their family. that

is why he had the night games, for a family outing.

 

we as fans demand the product to be put in the field, first. however that type of thinking I truly believe

need to be put aside and spend a little more, the fans sees that this is the time, a window of

opportunity to go for that elusive championship. we, the Sox fans have a great nucleus of great players

to build around, to take the sox to the world series.

 

the second thing that is most hardening to say, the cost of the games are starting to get steep. no one

can color code that. however, the commercial income is the 1 hidden source of revenue that the Sox

will guard heavily and pretend it doesn't exist.

 

this is a vicious catch 22.

[LDF]

BS

 

2005 happened. 3 million people showed up in 2006. Did 1.3 million of them go back to being mad about 1980? Please. If Sox fans are really still pissed about Harry Carey, the New Comiskey Park, White Flag, or any of that other BS, they really are the worst fans in baseball.

 

I have mix feelings in this discussion, but I do 100% agree with you.

[Chicago White Sox]

They've also lost a lot of ticket sales since they last had that payroll. Last time they started a season with a payroll close to $120 they sold of >$10 million in salaries during the year and then cut payroll by another $20 million beyond that the next offseason.

They cut payroll last year because they were in a transitional year. It didn't make sense for them to spend big on non-core pieces. Declining ticket sales may of had some impact, but I don't think it was the primary driver, especially when you consider the $25M they gained in national TV money.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Chicago White Sox

[Thad Bosley]

BS

 

2005 happened. 3 million people showed up in 2006. Did 1.3 million of them go back to being mad about 1980? Please. If Sox fans are really still pissed about Harry Carey, the New Comiskey Park, White Flag, or any of that other BS, they really are the worst fans in baseball.

You didn't highlight the important part of my last quote. I said the laundry list I referred to "CONTRIBUTED to the alienation of the fan base". I don't think I could be any clearer that the primary reason for the fan base malaise is the lack of winning. But if you want to discount the cumulative effect of years and years of the poor management decisions made by this ownership group, you go right ahead. But I will steadfastly maintain the reason this large market team's attendance and tv ratings are in the toilet as we speak is a combination of all of these things, primary of which is the lack of winning.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Thad Bosley

[LDF]

You didn't highlight the important part of my last quote. I said the laundry list I referred to

"CONTRIBUTED to the alienation of the fan base". I don't think I could be any clearer that the

primary reason for the fan base malaise is the lack of winning. But if you want to discount the

cumulative effect of years and years of the poor management decisions made by this ownership

group, you go right ahead. But I will steadfastly maintain the reason this large market team's

attendance and tv ratings are in the toilet as we speak is a combination of all of these things,

primary of which is the lack of winning.

 

the poor decision making is also the main strong point of JR. this undying faith in the people he picks.

 

I will say the start of that poor management is JR and his trust in KW. yrs and yrs the farm system

has failed. yeah the systems have produced some great players, but between them, it has been a

void.

 

why, should we the fans pay for this. yeah the Sox got very lucky, in one yr. 2005. everything work

just perfectly. but since then, the system is or was in shambles. that is until Hahn came along.

 

btw for my ref I was a season ticket holder for the Sox form 1987 till 1996 when I had to relocate

b/c of my job. I had 4 tickets.

Edited December 4, 2014 by LDF

[Rowand44]

BS

 

2005 happened. 3 million people showed up in 2006. Did 1.3 million of them go back to being mad about 1980? Please. If Sox fans are really still pissed about Harry Carey, the New Comiskey Park, White Flag, or any of that other BS, they really are the worst fans in baseball.

The Rally Crede can only bring fans in for so long.

[LDF]

They cut payroll last year because they were in a transitional year. It didn't make sense for them to spend big on non-core pieces. Declining ticket sales may of had some impact, but I don't think it was the primary driver, especially when you consider the $25M they gained in national TV money.

 

with all due respect, I strongly disagree and I like you as a poster.

 

it was off yr, b/c there wasn't anything in the farm. the minors was bare. why was that???

mismanagement!!!

[LDF]

 

Sorry, I just got pissed about the whole thing, the sox need to spend just a little

more than they originally planned.

 

btw, everyone on this thread was right, and yes everyone was wrong.

 

it is a minor degree.

[LDF]

 

the happy freaking losers..... the northside...

 

I dare anyone to call a sox fan that crap.,

[southsider2k5]

You didn't highlight the important part of my last quote. I said the laundry list I referred to "CONTRIBUTED to the alienation of the fan base". I don't think I could be any clearer that the primary reason for the fan base malaise is the lack of winning. But if you want to discount the cumulative effect of years and years of the poor management decisions made by this ownership group, you go right ahead. But I will steadfastly maintain the reason this large market team's attendance and tv ratings are in the toilet as we speak is a combination of all of these things, primary of which is the lack of winning.

 

That list was probably relevant in 2004. But 2005 happened. 3 million people showed up in 2006. All of those thoughts about the Sox fan base being so small, and non-existent were mythbusted.

 

If those same fans, who showed up in 2005/6, went back to not going to games, and are claiming any amount of reasons related stuff that happened in the 80's, they are not really fans. They are just miserable people looking for excuses.

 

2005 proved that the White Sox have a huge bandwagon component to their fan base. All the last eight years has done is reinforce it. Pre-2005 I didn't buy it at all, but now, the facts are there.

[southsider2k5]

the happy freaking losers..... the northside...

 

I dare anyone to call a sox fan that crap.,

 

As a Sox fan I would kill for their fan base loyalty. It would give the franchise a lot more options for how to operate from year to year, instead of being forced to grasp at shorter straws in search of a short cut to try to revive their bandwagon fans interest.

 

The Cubs are able to do their rebuild the way they did because of their fans. The same goes for the White Sox.

[LDF]

As a Sox fan I would kill for their fan base loyalty. It would give the franchise a lot more options for how to operate from year to year, instead of being forced to grasp at shorter straws in search of a short cut to try to revive their bandwagon fans interest.

 

The Cubs are able to do their rebuild the way they did because of their fans. The same goes for the White Sox.

 

no crap. 100% correct..

[caulfield12]

Let's not forget the one huge negative effect of 2005.

 

Generations of Sox fans finally received their lifelong wish...a championship. With that having been accomplished, something that many never believed would happen, the DESPERATION to witness a trophy being hoisted is long gone.

 

With the Cubs, that wait till next year and 100+ year count since a World Series title and the billy goat and Bartman and the curse of all the failed managers and the curse of Prior/Wood is roughly 50% of their marketing attraction and appeal...

 

 

We also lost so many fans in the 80's and 90's because of WGN featuring the Cubs and winning over those fans in the Midwest states outside of the Chicago area (well, those who didn't go to or remain with the Cardinals).

 

 

 

If Merkin is right, it would be idiotic to have added LaRoche and Duke if they're going to play Viciedo in LF, not add another veteran starter and not address the back end of the bullpen with more than band aids and Hail Mary's.

 

It would make zero sense to do that...to aspire to a .500 team in an increasingly tough division.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2014 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

Spin it like you want to. If fans don't go to games, they don't get to complain about the payroll.

 

Of course they do. If you're a business, you develop a disireable product, then expect it to sell well. If your product sucks, you don't expect people to buy it anyway, in hopes that the company might use the profits to develop a better product you can buy again later.

[caulfield12]

Of course they do. If you're a business, you develop a disireable product, then expect it to sell well. If your product sucks, you don't expect people to buy it anyway, in hopes that the company might use the profits to develop a better product you can buy again later.

 

 

See all the competition and pressure McDonald's is under, for an example.

 

They can't just throw up their arms and complain that Panera, Chipotle, Five Guys, Starbucks are beating them at their own game, etc.

 

Maybe that's not the best analogy, since the White Sox were never a quasi-monopoly.

 

 

 

You could compare it to Wendy's innovating to take on Burger King, or equate the White Sox with Olive Garden. There's nothing WRONG with Olive Garden, per se, but it's not new or fresh...no matter how much they change the ambience or restaurant design (see renovations to USCF), the core product and its appeal are always going to be the main consideration. Value. Going to an MLB game (cue emotional shot of Greg bringing in the fall wheat harvest with his young sons) or Olive Garden/Red Lobster used to be worthwhile. Increasingly, the costs and enjoyment have started going in opposite directions, as the economic conditions have forced every family to more closely monitor their entertainment and "eating out" budgeting.

 

 

 

Nobody in a million years would line up Chicago and Detroit in the late 90's and believe that with all the economic trends in play, a team from that market would be absolutely dominating the White Sox, looking at how bad the Tigers were for 15-20 years.

 

The problem is that if we know one thing at all, Illitch and JR don't have the same philosophy or reasons for owning a major league franchise.

Edited December 4, 2014 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Of course they do. If you're a business, you develop a disireable product, then expect it to sell well. If your product sucks, you don't expect people to buy it anyway, in hopes that the company might use the profits to develop a better product you can buy again later.

 

But baseball isn't a business!!! It's uniquely protected by Congress, anti-trust laws, the national pastime, etc.

 

Would communities all over the US build restaurants for McDonald's or Subway? Would they issue municipal bonds or increase hotel/tourism taxes?

[Eminor3rd]

But baseball isn't a business!!! It's uniquely protected by Congress, anti-trust laws, the national pastime, etc.

 

Would communities all over the US build restaurants for McDonald's or Subway? Would they issue municipal bonds or increase hotel/tourism taxes?

 

Right, further evidence that these people have no right to more of our money. They have to earn it.

[southsider2k5]

Of course they do. If you're a business, you develop a disireable product, then expect it to sell well. If your product sucks, you don't expect people to buy it anyway, in hopes that the company might use the profits to develop a better product you can buy again later.

 

This is exactly why the Cubs were able to do the rebuild they have done, and why we can't. We have to spend all of our revenues on major league players, because our fans don't have the patience to wait on prospects. Kenny Williams was the perfect GM for White Sox fans.

[LDF]

The problem is that if we know one thing at all, Illitch and JR don't have the same philosophy or reasons for owning a major league franchise.

 

i strongly disagree on one thing, JR promised all of chicago and Bill Veeck to not take the

club out of chi. the plan in the 80 was to move the sox to st petersberg fl then to

glendale arz. but JR kept the team in chi b/c of a promise.

 

most owners would have moved the team due to the economics.

 

the main fault is JR loyalty to people who should not be there esp in the development

of the players.

[southsider2k5]

But baseball isn't a business!!! It's uniquely protected by Congress, anti-trust laws, the national pastime, etc.

 

Would communities all over the US build restaurants for McDonald's or Subway? Would they issue municipal bonds or increase hotel/tourism taxes?

 

Much like any other business that gets tax breaks and TIF money, etc.

[LDF]

This is exactly why the Cubs were able to do the rebuild they have done, and why we can't. We have to spend all of our revenues on major league players, because our fans don't have the patience to wait on prospects. Kenny Williams was the perfect GM for White Sox fans.

 

lol you are right about this, the fans of the sox would have a rebellion if the sox brass

told or looked as they will do a 3-4 yr rebuild.

 

JR has to find that right mix of rebuilding at the same time produce by putting a sellable

product on the field.

[LDF]

Much like any other business that gets tax breaks and TIF money, etc.

 

JR has one of the sweetest deal ever with sox park. maybe it was coincidence was a ummm

an associate of JR.

 

you know how many times other owners tried to use JR lease as a platform.

 

here is another unrelated example, hockey, and arz. JR was trying to get the city of

arz to foot the loan at an ungodly low amount of interest.

 

JR is smart in business but ....... oh well you can fill in the rest.