JUGGERNAUT Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 Jerry Manuel :dips*** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 If you want to track blunders, why don't we track RISP with less than two outs, that don't get moved along??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 They've already cost us games. That's enough in this close division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I can't - won't - vote because I don't agree with the premise. I think JM is a good manager. The team is in first place and he has already given usa division championship and very few of our managers have done that and that last one who did, everyone hated him too, so I just won't buy into the dumping on the manager s***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 4, 2003 Share Posted September 4, 2003 I think JM is a good manager. -------------------- [br]John Navarre, 2003 Heisman Trophy Winner You also think John Navarre is going to win the hiesman trophy. I think that tells s how much your opinion COUNTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 If you want to track blunders, why don't we track RISP with less than two outs, that don't get moved along??? I think that stat right there is the biggest reason that the Sox would fail to make the playoffs (If that happens). Looking back on games, there are so many that should of been one, had the team just simply made contact or lifted a fly ball. Now I know it isn't going to happen all the time, but I'd like to see it happen at least 75% of the time. If you get a guy on 3rd with less then two outs, you better do it more often then not. Hell, if it were me, I'd expect 80% of the time. The other big area that pisses me off is the Sox inability to get runners over. In 2000 they were great at moving the guy from 2nd to 3rd. Now they don't even try to do it. They just hack for the homer. Walker has been a big improvement to the point I think the players and Manuel have to stress doing this. Walker can't do it by himself. Crede/Konerko are about the only players I always see trying to get the runners over in those situations. Carlos Lee is probably one of the worse at this, along with Frank Thomas who has been awful at it as well. The only flaw I have with Lee in the 2 hole, is that his swing gets too long and he gets caught up in the homer and not moving the guy over, which is the job of the 2 hole hitter at times. I love what Carlos has done this year and think he's probably the most improved player on the team (Along with Frank) but I still need to see those little things done. The entier team needs to do them and Manuel needs to stress them. If a manager doesn't stress that stuff, then the players won't do it, they just figure its not their managers style and to me its not a style that is effective come playoff time. And it is the reason why the team lost the past two nights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I think JM is a good manager. -------------------- [br]John Navarre, 2003 Heisman Trophy Winner You also think John Navarre is going to win the hiesman trophy. I think that tells s how much your opinion COUNTS I also thought Eminem would win an Oscar and the night Detroit was no hitting us, I was the one who believed we would win. Jason will tell you when Garland was down 4-0 in one game, I told him the Sox would win 7-4. I might have wrong on that since we won more like 10 or 11 to 4. I'm the guy who bad a bundle betting on the Pats versus the Rams and my best preseason bet ever, in 1969: the Mets will win the pennnant before the Cubs. After the first game in the 1997 NCAA football season (easy victory over a tough Colorado team) I put money down on Michigan to win the national championship and not-even-on-the-charts-Woodson to win the Heisman. And I am of course comparing Manuel to the Sox managers I have seen in lifetime which gives me a little perspective. Those Sox managers are: Bill Adair, Terry Bevington, Larry Doby, Jim Fregosi, Don Gutteridge, Don Kessinger, Gene Lamont, Tony LaRussa, Bob Lemon, Al Lopez, Jerry Manuel, Marty Marion, Less Moss, Doug Rader, Paul Richards, Eddie Stankey, Chuck Tanner, Jeff Torborg. So I have seen enough Sox managers with enough Sox teams that I feel very comfortable with my opinion as COUNTing. My opinion COUNTS as much as yours. Thet are equally opinions. I am comfortable with my opions and my track record, hope you are comfortable with yours, and then everyone is involved in the conversation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I just wanted to take a dig at Navarre winning the hiesman. I predicted Paulie to hit a homerun tuesday night to tie that game. He just missed it. We can't be right all of the time. I wasn't trying to be a dick. It just came out that way. I thought abuot editting the post - I don't need to start a flamewar - I figured you would get it. No Apologies. Just differing opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I can't - won't - vote because I don't agree with the premise. I think JM is a good manager. The team is in first place and he has already given usa division championship and very few of our managers have done that and that last one who did, everyone hated him too, so I just won't buy into the dumping on the manager s***. What the f*** will it take for you to say Manuel is a bad manager. O great we're tied for first place we should be atleast 7 games up in this pathedic division the sox are much more talented then every other team in the division, and if it wasn't for Manuel we probably wouldn't even be worrying about a division race, and I really do believe jerry is going to cost us a f***in playoff chance, it pisses me off to think where the sox would be with a different manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 O great we're tied for first place we should be atleast 7 games up in this pathedic division the sox are much more talented then every other team in the division, and if it wasn't for Manuel we probably wouldn't even be worrying about a division race, and I really do believe jerry is going to cost us a f***in playoff chance I can't go back and analyze every game the White Sox have lost this season, but I'm positive you could come up with atleast 8 losses that JM was indirectly responsible for. JM hasn't had a consistent closer in 2 seasons. Add to that that JM doesn't have clue number 1 on how to deal with or how to effectively use his BP. JM preached small ball when he was hired as White Sox manager, yet we see only glimpses of small ball when needed once every 20 or so games. JM has a penchant for playing bench players the last game of a series if the White Sox have already won the series before the last game starts. JM says he's going to try something different for a specific series then never does it. Let's not forget JM's "Little League" approach to starters earlier on in the '03 season..... everybody got to play atleast 2 days a week. JM doesn't have clue-f***ing-1 and the only solace I will take from the White Sox possibly not making the playoffs this season is that JM will probably be and should almost definitely be fired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I can't - won't - vote because I don't agree with the premise. I think JM is a good manager. The team is in first place and he has already given usa division championship and very few of our managers have done that and that last one who did, everyone hated him too, so I just won't buy into the dumping on the manager s***. I vote this as most clueless post of the year. OMG lol. You have to be totally blind to think JM is a good manager. I wont say stupid cuz im in a good mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I think that stat right there is the biggest reason that the Sox would fail to make the playoffs (If that happens). Looking back on games, there are so many that should of been one, had the team just simply made contact or lifted a fly ball. Now I know it isn't going to happen all the time, but I'd like to see it happen at least 75% of the time. If you get a guy on 3rd with less then two outs, you better do it more often then not. Hell, if it were me, I'd expect 80% of the time. The other big area that pisses me off is the Sox inability to get runners over. In 2000 they were great at moving the guy from 2nd to 3rd. Now they don't even try to do it. They just hack for the homer. Walker has been a big improvement to the point I think the players and Manuel have to stress doing this. Walker can't do it by himself. Crede/Konerko are about the only players I always see trying to get the runners over in those situations. Carlos Lee is probably one of the worse at this, along with Frank Thomas who has been awful at it as well. The only flaw I have with Lee in the 2 hole, is that his swing gets too long and he gets caught up in the homer and not moving the guy over, which is the job of the 2 hole hitter at times. I love what Carlos has done this year and think he's probably the most improved player on the team (Along with Frank) but I still need to see those little things done. The entier team needs to do them and Manuel needs to stress them. If a manager doesn't stress that stuff, then the players won't do it, they just figure its not their managers style and to me its not a style that is effective come playoff time. And it is the reason why the team lost the past two nights. jason.. well put.... small ball.. how many times have we been screaming for that this year??? geez us....the one thing that minny will kick our asses in is small ball espically in their home....if we cant get past this everyone swinging for the fences s*** and leaving guys stranded (or worse yet bases freakin loaded) we will not advance to far.........now i have pretty much been a jm backer since he came here... and in a lot of things he does i still am.. but in this instance (the small ball thing) i have to disagree with him wholeheartedly..... he just has no clue as to how to get it across to these guys that the little things will also get you runs and put numbers on the score board.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I can't - won't - vote because I don't agree with the premise. I think JM is a good manager. The team is in first place and he has already given usa division championship and very few of our managers have done that and that last one who did, everyone hated him too, so I just won't buy into the dumping on the manager s***. I vote this as most clueless post of the year. OMG lol. You have to be totally blind to think JM is a good manager. I wont say stupid cuz im in a good mood. No, cw's post wasn't "clueless". In fact, it was a well thought out opinion that he elaborated on in a subsequent post. His opinion, which he is certainly entitled to, deserves to be respected regardless whether or not you happen to agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I just wanted to take a dig at Navarre winning the hiesman. I predicted Paulie to hit a homerun tuesday night to tie that game. He just missed it. We can't be right all of the time. I wasn't trying to be a dick. It just came out that way. I thought abuot editting the post - I don't need to start a flamewar - I figured you would get it. No Apologies. Just differing opinions. thanks for your further word - much appreciated! You are a cool person. The Navarro thing started out as a joke between some of my friends and he does appear on some lists as a dark horse candidate - certainly wityh Clarett gone, Navarre is theplayer most important to his team in the the Big 10. Anyway, baseball. Given that MB was 2-10 at one pint and isn;t at 500 yet - the Colon has hovered at 500 all season - Valentine hasn't hit 240 maybe all season, certainly hasn't hit 250, we all know what PK's pre All Star game BA was, Rowand coming off his injury, Frank starting slow enough that people were commenting here and other places, and D'Angelo Jimenez at 2nd - that we are in first now is a sign of some good managing to me. I don't agree with his every move, but I don't agree with my every move. I am leery of the twinkies being tied with us at this point. To those who say we should be in 1st by 7, that is only conjecture. I certainly wish we were. I suspect the play of our players on the field and the batters batting have much more to do with our not being in first by 7 than the manager sitting on the bench. But if there is any manager capable of staying on an even keel so as to guide a team to a championship in a tight race, that would be JM, in my opinion. YASNY, thank you, you get it, what some never do, and the phrase "you get it" covers a host of things. Thanks for being a member of Soxtalk - I always look forward to reading all the YASNY posts every morning as I know I will read something insightful, intelligent, and respectful by someone who has taught and informed me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 bmr, there are so many post season awards that you are in line for, please do not attempt to flatter me - it will do you no good! - by suggesting that I may possibly win any of the post season honors that you are a slam-dunk for! I am no competition for you whatsoever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 cwsox, simply put, Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Wow. This thread looked like it was going to be a fire fight and turned into a lovefest. Anyway, I have to agree with cw. His points are well thought out. Now, that said. Do I like ALL of the moves JM has made? Absolutely not. But...I appreciate what he is and what he's tried to do for this team. b****ing about him not having a closer the last two years in unfair. He gave both guys more than enough chances. There were plenty of people on this site wondering why Koch got as many shots as he did. It's not Jerry's fault that Kenny Williams got a closer with a dead arm. (But, that's a different conversation altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Now I have only been watching for twenty years but I feel that the White Sox have below average managers because they will not pay. I will also point out for a second time today what Johnny B. has done on the northside of town. I feel the cub won three games in that series because of the win mentality. We just lost two games because we have the show up and give it a shot mentality. Look at the numebrs for the Boston starters they beat us with pitching, mostly bullpen, something that has been fried for them. If bringing Marte in AFTER Ortiz homered is not the dumb ass move of they year, somehow having Willie Harris bat with two outs and the tying run on third would be. How about two lefiteis sitting in the pen when Ortiz homered to win the game. That was pure genius. I won't rehash the Neil Cotts situation or the Sunday afternoon in Seattle. This is not the first time I thought Manuel was throwing the game. Sorry but the guy was schooled in the 2000 playoffs and will be again before the weekend is over. Keith Foulke never should have been removed as our closer last year, Josh Paul on the playoff roster, Julio Ramirez, Thomas going to DH while he was red hot. I like the homers but look at the K's, homering is nice for fans but doesn't help win ballgames. Why do we never pinch hit for Alomar or Olivo late in games? Removing Garland in the Kansas City game after Crede gave us the lead. Sean Lowe being run out of town. There are many more negatives tehn positives. We are in first place for a couple of reasons, our division is a f***ing joke and we have possibly as good of talent as any in baseball. Our weaknesses are no greater than any other team. Why should Manuel be fired, one reason, our record against the Detroit Tigers. If we play them at the same clip as the rest of the league, we are 6 games up. We have lost 7 times to possibly one of teh worst teams in the history of baseball. The Twins have lost to them once in two years. The Twins won the other day by playing hard, we lost in the same situation becasue we are soft, as lead by our manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmr31 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I can't - won't - vote because I don't agree with the premise. I think JM is a good manager. The team is in first place and he has already given usa division championship and very few of our managers have done that and that last one who did, everyone hated him too, so I just won't buy into the dumping on the manager s***. I vote this as most clueless post of the year. OMG lol. You have to be totally blind to think JM is a good manager. I wont say stupid cuz im in a good mood. No, cw's post wasn't "clueless". In fact, it was a well thought out opinion that he elaborated on in a subsequent post. His opinion, which he is certainly entitled to, deserves to be respected regardless whether or not you happen to agree. I dont respect blatant hypocrites, nor will I ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosk8 Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 I think that stat right there is the biggest reason that the Sox would fail to make the playoffs (If that happens). Looking back on games, there are so many that should of been one, had the team just simply made contact or lifted a fly ball. Now I know it isn't going to happen all the time, but I'd like to see it happen at least 75% of the time. If you get a guy on 3rd with less then two outs, you better do it more often then not. Hell, if it were me, I'd expect 80% of the time. The other big area that pisses me off is the Sox inability to get runners over. In 2000 they were great at moving the guy from 2nd to 3rd. Now they don't even try to do it. They just hack for the homer. Walker has been a big improvement to the point I think the players and Manuel have to stress doing this. Walker can't do it by himself. Crede/Konerko are about the only players I always see trying to get the runners over in those situations. Carlos Lee is probably one of the worse at this, along with Frank Thomas who has been awful at it as well. The only flaw I have with Lee in the 2 hole, is that his swing gets too long and he gets caught up in the homer and not moving the guy over, which is the job of the 2 hole hitter at times. I love what Carlos has done this year and think he's probably the most improved player on the team (Along with Frank) but I still need to see those little things done. The entier team needs to do them and Manuel needs to stress them. If a manager doesn't stress that stuff, then the players won't do it, they just figure its not their managers style and to me its not a style that is effective come playoff time. And it is the reason why the team lost the past two nights. jason.. well put.... small ball.. how many times have we been screaming for that this year??? geez us....the one thing that minny will kick our asses in is small ball espically in their home....if we cant get past this everyone swinging for the fences s*** and leaving guys stranded (or worse yet bases freakin loaded) we will not advance to far.........now i have pretty much been a jm backer since he came here... and in a lot of things he does i still am.. but in this instance (the small ball thing) i have to disagree with him wholeheartedly..... he just has no clue as to how to get it across to these guys that the little things will also get you runs and put numbers on the score board.......... I agree with playing small ball as well, but I also believe JM is playing the hand he was dealt. This team is put together to play small ball, this team is a team that lives and dies with the long ball. Sounds as if you want to lay the blame on someone, it is not Jerry, but the man who put the team together for him, Kenny Williams. I, however, won't blame either of them. Yes, JM has made his share of bad decisions and then some, but so does every other manager. At some point there has to be some accountability on the players end. I will not blame KW either as he is one person in the organization that has shown me he wants to put a winner on the field. I honestly believe this man has a deep passion for White Sox baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted September 5, 2003 Share Posted September 5, 2003 Let me just throw one more log on the fire. Manuel has shown himself to be a progressively worse manager, the more choices he is faced with. Case in point. Wednesday night he pinch hit Daubach for the catcher, probably anticipating that Boston would bring in the lefty, and he'd counter with Graf. We've seen that before. BUT HE DIDN"T HAVE TO BURN DAUBACH. He had Rios, that would have either produced the same result but kept Daubach in play for later (like when Willie came up!), or he would have had lefty righty advantage with Rios in there. This is elemental stuff. His loyalty to guys who have been here, like Willie Harris on Wednesday, is wishful thinking, and losing baseball. I think he's a bad manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 Keith Foulke never should have been removed as our closer last year... My Lord, what did Foulke need to do to get benched last year then? He was God-awful, and if anything was given too many chances by JM. JM is not going to be on many Manager of the Year ballots, but I would have to point to D'angelo Jimenez being the Sox's best offensive weapon in the first half as a prime example as to why they had such a rotten start. If JM should be fired for the team performing below expectations, then Konerko, Valentin, Buerhle, Koch, and Colon should be fired for not living up to expectations. Even now, the Sox have one hitter, Mags, over .300. Hell, I don't think anyone else is within spitting distance of .300. I guess I'm just quicker to point to the guys on the field rather than those who aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 It's a time-honored tradition: you can't fire the players, so.... The manager's prime duty is to put his players in the best position to win, and Jerry fails at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 It's a time-honored tradition: you can't fire the players, so.... The manager's prime duty is to put his players in the best position to win, and Jerry fails at that. the "time honored tradition" is an empty cliche. Players can be traded away, released, sent to the minors, whatever. And I disagree on the the second assertation. People may reasonably disagree on this issue. Baseball is an art, not a science. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted September 6, 2003 Share Posted September 6, 2003 I know you can nit pick things to death, but there are so many examples of not putting his players in a position to succeed. The thing with Ortiz on Wednesday, not having any of your lefties face him, was egregiously wrong. By having Sully face him the first time with the 3 lefties in the pen, that's not putting your players in the best position to succeed. And I thing starting Cotts in Yankee stadium, rather than Comerica Park, that was not putting your players in the best position to succeed. I know Jiminez was disastrously bad, and that wasn't Jerry's fault. But unless he gets them into postseason, I'd fire him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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