Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:03 PM) Beckham actually hit better on the road than at home during his career, and this board for the most part, pretty much wanted Beckham gone for the past 3 or 4 seasons. "Not able to hit well in a hitters park" is a pretty darn bad thing. Edit: now I actually just looked. You really thought I wouldn't look at the career number: Career: home/road splits for Gordon beckham Home: .681 OPS Road: .682 OPS. He was terrible at home in 2014, he was pretty much evenly weak in 2013, he was terrible on the road in 2012, he was equally rotten in both in 2011. Stronger at home again than on the road in 2010. Basically the only year your statement is accurate is 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 02:16 PM) "Not able to hit well in a hitters park" is a pretty darn bad thing. Edit: now I actually just looked. You really thought I wouldn't look at the career number: Career: home/road splits for Gordon beckham Home: .681 OPS Road: .682 OPS. He was terrible at home in 2014, he was pretty much evenly weak in 2013, he was terrible on the road in 2012, he was equally rotten in both in 2011. Stronger at home again than on the road in 2010. Basically the only year your statement is accurate is 2014. I said he hit better on the road than at home for his career. My statement was accurate. There have been a growing number of White Sox starting to have this problem. I know Ackley wouldn't have it. That's a given. Edited December 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 They have to do something about left field. As it stands now, Viciedo is 4th OF Danks is 5th OF and that is a bad situation. I'd flip him for Ackley if that's the best they can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:20 PM) I said he hit better on the road than at home for his career. My statement was accurate. There have been a growing number of White Sox starting to have this problem. I know Ackley wouldn't have it. That's a given. Your statement was accurate and completely meaningless, literally .001 points of OPS. It's the kind of statement no one wanting to have an honest discussion would ever make, because anyone who actually looked at the numbers would laugh at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Your statement was accurate and completely meaningless, literally .001 points of OPS. It's the kind of statement no one wanting to have an honest discussion would ever make, because anyone who actually looked at the numbers would laugh at it. Seems like Dick is a miserable guy who likes trying to spread his affliction. Appropriate username. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 02:24 PM) Your statement was accurate and completely meaningless, literally .001 points of OPS. It's the kind of statement no one wanting to have an honest discussion would ever make, because anyone who actually looked at the numbers would laugh at it. Not really. I am stating when mentioning ballpark factors, it didn't matter in Beckham's case. You are just assuming players that hit .240 in Seattle hit .300 at USCF. It isn't necessarily accurate. .244/.326/.293 in a small sample size at USCF for Ackley. If the Sox traded Viciedo for Ackley I wouldn't cancel the DirectTV, but if they said Ackley was going to be the regular LF or 2B, I would think this trying to win isn't really trying to win. Ackley wasn't trending up when he was Viciedo's age. People here seem to take great interest in players who are very similar to players they hated when they played for the White Sox.l Edited December 10, 2014 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 02:32 PM) Seems like Dick is a miserable guy who likes trying to spread his affliction. Appropriate username. Enough of your BS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shipps Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 You guys should probably stop the back and forth now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:33 PM) If the Sox traded Viciedo for Ackley I wouldn't cancel the DirectTV, but if they said Ackley was going to be the regular LF or 2B, I would think this trying to win isn't really trying to win. Ackley would be a big upgrade over Viciedo based on what each of them did last year, that's enough for me. We'd go from having a vastly below average player at LF to a slightly below average or maybe even average player counting both offense and defense. I'd be totally ok with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:33 PM) Ackley wasn't trending up when he was Viciedo's age. People here seem to take great interest in players who are very similar to players they hated when they played for the White Sox.l When he was age 25, he was putting up a .660 OPS in Safeco again during his 2nd big league season following a .622 OPS the previous year. By your standards, a .659 OPS in one year and a .660 OPS the next year is "trending up", so that change for Ackley at the age Viciedo currently is at is an ungodly unbelievably skyrocketing improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy the Clown Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I'd be disappointed with Ackley as our starting LFer, but happy if he was the 2B. Defensive position matters when evaluating the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 02:41 PM) When he was age 25, he was putting up a .660 OPS in Safeco again during his 2nd big league season following a .622 OPS the previous year. By your standards, a .659 OPS in one year and a .660 OPS the next year is "trending up", so that change for Ackley at the age Viciedo currently is at is an ungodly unbelievably skyrocketing improvement. There is probably about a 90% chance Viciedo isn't the LF for the White Sox on opening day. Hahn mentioned a need to get more athletic, and never mentions him when they talk about the team. Never mentions John Danks either or Hector Noesi. So I don't think he will be counting on them. I just think Viciedo's potential is a better bet than Ackley. Are there examples of guys who were bad for several years in Safeco (before they moved the fences in ) who went on to much better things elsewhere? Keep in mind 2014 Viciedo had a .261 BABIP. That is 30 points below his career, and few more points under what his career BABIP was previously. So he did hit into some bad luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Andy the Clown @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:46 PM) I'd be disappointed with Ackley as our starting LFer, but happy if he was the 2B. Defensive position matters when evaluating the bat. The average LF in MLB put up a .723 OPS last year, the average 2b put up a .683 OPS. He'd be slightly better at 2b given that but what really matters to my eyes is that Ackley hopefully is >>>>> Viciedo and Ackley maybe > or maybe = Sanchez/Johnson. The upgrade from Viciedo to an average player is huge, the difference between missing the playoffs by a couple games and reaching the play in game. The upgrade from Sanchez/Johnson to an average player hopefully will be small or maybe even nonexistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:49 PM) I just think Viciedo's potential is a better bet than Ackley. Are there examples of guys who were bad for several years in Safeco (before they moved the fences in ) who went on to much better things elsewhere? The greatest example of that I can possibly give is Adrian Beltre. Average OPS in Seattle during his 5 year contract was .759, in 2009 his OPS was .683. He went to Boston and Texas and immediately put up a .899 OPS over the next 5 years. There's a good chance that Safeco is the reason why he's not looked at as a sure fire hall of famer right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 02:53 PM) The greatest example of that I can possibly give is Adrian Beltre. Average OPS in Seattle during his 5 year contract was .759, in 2009 his OPS was .683. He went to Boston and Texas and immediately put up a .899 OPS over the next 5 years. There's a good chance that Safeco is the reason why he's not looked at as a sure fire hall of famer right now. So one HOF-calibur player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I'd much rather Micah or Sanchez as our starting 2B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 It feels weird to think, but I'd want Ackley just to take Viciedo's place in LF. Neither of them are going to hit, but at least Ackley can catch. I also don't see why dumping Viciedo for Ackley precludes us from acquiring a better solution inf LF. It's not like Viciedo is an asset we could put toward a different type of trade. If we swapped those two, we'd immediately improve our defense, and, at worst, find a pretty effective and versatile utility guy for the bench. It's a net gain across the board, if not substantially. You don't have to project improvement to gain in this case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:56 PM) So one HOF-calibur player. Who put up a worse OPS his last year in Safeco than Ackley did last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:24 PM) Who put up a worse OPS his last year in Safeco than Ackley did last year. I do think the dimensions were changed a bit, but if you are implying Ackley should be as good as Beltre, Hahn should trade for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Re: home/road splits I'm not sure if the numbers would completely back this, but I think it's somewhat of a myth that the Cell is a hitter's park. It's a great park to hit home runs, but it's not a great Park for line drive hitters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (TaylorStSox @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 04:48 PM) Re: home/road splits I'm not sure if the numbers would completely back this, but I think it's somewhat of a myth that the Cell is a hitter's park. It's a great park to hit home runs, but it's not a great Park for line drive hitters. This is somewhat true except where you said it's a "myth" that the Cell is a hitters park. It's almost always an above average hitters park, but if the wind and weather are right during a season it can get down close to average. Its been as much as the 2nd best park for producing runs in baseball in recent seasons, and IIRC as low as 10th or 15th, can't remember the bottom. Most seasons it's top 8 for runs, so it's definitely a hitters park overall. But you are completely correct in that the reason why it is a hitters park is that it favors home runs strongly. It's not a particularly strong park for doubles or triples or singles, but home runs have a big enough impact that the cell is a solid hitters park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (raBBit @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:51 PM) It's of the worst parks for doubles and triples. Incredibly small gaps. Imo, it makes for boring baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Yep not a lot of room in the alleys and pretty large foul ground by modern park standards. The cell is playing only slightly above avg for runs the last few years I believe . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 10, 2014 -> 03:52 PM) This is somewhat true except where you said it's a "myth" that the Cell is a hitters park. It's almost always an above average hitters park, but if the wind and weather are right during a season it can get down close to average. Its been as much as the 2nd best park for producing runs in baseball in recent seasons, and IIRC as low as 10th or 15th, can't remember the bottom. Most seasons it's top 8 for runs, so it's definitely a hitters park overall. But you are completely correct in that the reason why it is a hitters park is that it favors home runs strongly. It's not a particularly strong park for doubles or triples or singles, but home runs have a big enough impact that the cell is a solid hitters park. I'd be interested in seeing the numbers for road teams and how they hit there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorStSox Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I also think a hitter like Viciedo would be better off in a park like Safeco. His HR's will be down, especially because drives the ball better to RF, but his average would go up. I think he's a much better line drive hitter than power hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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