Robin Ventura Bullpen Management

[Reddy]

I mentioned this in another thread and was laughed at, but I finally found the article on BP

 

Ventura is, in many ways, the polar opposite of Fredi Gonzalez. He did a terrific job using his relievers in ways that got the most out of their talent, while adapting to changes that he noticed over the course of the season.

 

To be clear, Ventura has not had it easy when it comes to his bullpen. There are 20 names on that list, including a few position players, but it’s clear that Ventura worked well with what he had. Only four of those pitchers posted positive RE24s this season, and only three of them were worth writing home about. So Petricka, Carroll, and Putnam were the best options that Ventura had.

 

The first thing worth pointing out is the contrasting uses of Lindstrom and Carroll as the season went on. Carroll, who made more than a few appearances as a starting pitcher in 2014, saw the average leverage index of his appearances increase as the season went on, as he proved himself to be invaluable in a bullpen role (.292 wOBA against as a reliever vs. .364 wOBA against as a starter). Lindstrom, on the other hand, has a long track record of success as an MLB reliever. However, his 2014 campaign was dreadful, and Ventura would decrease the importance of his outings over the course of the season.

 

Ronald Belisario was the highest paid reliever on the White Sox staff, and he started the season out well enough as a valuable pitcher for Ventura. He began to struggle in June and subsequently saw his usage in high-leverage situations decrease. Ventura didn’t seem to be fazed by Belisario’s price tag or veteran track record in essentially demoting him from that high-leverage work.

 

Correspondingly, the average leverage of Putnam and Petricka increased as the year went on and they proved themselves at the major-league level. Ventura wasn’t afraid to use Putnam or Petricka, neither of whom had more than 20 MLB innings prior to 2014, in high-leverage situations.

 

It’s easy to look back, with all the information we have at the end of the season, and critique any manager’s use of his bullpen. While it might not be fair, because the managers didn’t have all this information at the time of these decisions, it does give some insight into which managers are more in tune with the performance of their bullpens. Or were, for a year. Where Fredi Gonzalez struggled to adjust to the variable performances put forth by his relievers, Robin Ventura was able to consistently put his best relief pitchers in the most high-leverage situations.

 

the actual statistical analysis are in charts on the page, but I didn't wanna copy/paste everything because it's a subscriber thing.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=25011

 

 

 

So stop your damn whining! RV is a very solid manager.

[Eminor3rd]

Thank you. I'm not trying to say RV is an amazing manager, but he is probably neutral and mostly irrelevant. The team (and especially the bullpen) sucked balls, and that's why they lost. Not because RV used them incorrectly.

[caulfield12]

I'm not sure comparing him to Fredi Gonzalez is exactly the highest bar or standard available.

 

Their teams were in totally different situations in 2014.

 

I'm sure the same article could be written comparing Brad Ausmus and Ventura. The fact of the matter is that Mike Illitch was paying guys like Nathan, Soria and Chamberlain a lot of money to get the job done in a season where they were expected to make the playoffs.

 

What was Belisario's salary last year? $3.5 million? It's not like RV removed A.Miller from high leverage duties in the first year of his four year deal.

 

Now if RV does the same thing with Robertson halfway through 2015, I'd be amazed (and also depressed, simultaneously).

[Quin]

Thank you. I'm not trying to say RV is an amazing manager, but he is probably neutral and mostly irrelevant. The team (and especially the bullpen) sucked balls, and that's why they lost. Not because RV used them incorrectly.

 

If the Soxtalk hive mind managed the team, they'd have won 120 games.

[Chicago White Sox]

I'm not sure comparing him to Fredi Gonzalez is exactly the highest bar or standard available.

 

Their teams were in totally different situations in 2014.

 

I'm sure the same article could be written comparing Brad Ausmus and Ventura. The fact of the matter is that Mike Illitch was paying guys like Nathan, Soria and Chamberlain a lot of money to get the job done in a season where they were expected to make the playoffs.

 

What was Belisario's salary last year? $3.5 million? It's not like RV removed A.Miller from high leverage duties in the first year of his four year deal.

 

Now if RV does the same thing with Robertson halfway through 2015, I'd be amazed (and also depressed, simultaneously).

This is a great point. We had a bunch of nobody relievers last year. Not sure I'm going to give Robin a lot credit for ditching any of them fairly quickly.

[Reddy]

This is a great point. We had a bunch of nobody relievers last year. Not sure I'm going to give Robin a lot credit for ditching any of them fairly quickly.

The point is that he got the most out of his terrible bullpen, and that's something to be commended. If you believed this board, the opposite was true. Fortunately the statistics are on Robin's side.

[Chicago White Sox]

The point is that he got the most out of his terrible bullpen, and that's something to be commended. If you believed this board, the opposite was true. Fortunately the statistics are on Robin's side.

I wish I could read the entire article to better comment, but it sounds like you're saying he rode the hot hand successfully, which is a lot easier to accomplish when you have a bunch of unproven relievers. Like Caulfield mentioned, if Robertson struggles next year, Robin will likely give him closing opportunities until he snaps out of his funk. I'm guessing the metrics in the article you posted would fault him for that.

[GreenSox]

When Asked about "roles" last year, Ventura astutely said that their role is to get outs. I hope he maintains that philosophy.

He still needs work on those bunting in front of Abreu and pulling Abreu for pinch runners thingies he does .

[Reddy]

I wish I could read the entire article to better comment, but it sounds like you're saying he rode the hot hand successfully, which is a lot easier to accomplish when you have a bunch of unproven relievers. Like Caulfield mentioned, if Robertson struggles next year, Robin will likely give him closing opportunities until he snaps out of his funk. I'm guessing the metrics in the article you posted would fault him for that.

 

Caulfields point is a good one, but it doesn't refute the fact that Ventura did a good job with the bullpen he had last year, end of story, and that is backed up by statistics.

 

[ptatc]

When Asked about "roles" last year, Ventura astutely said that their role is to get outs. I hope he maintains that philosophy.

He still needs work on those bunting in front of Abreu and pulling Abreu for pinch runners thingies he does .

That was a quote out of frustration when his bullpen was blowing games. He will not be able to do that with a successful bullpen. The roles need to be defined in some manner.

Edited December 16, 2014 by ptatc

[Kyyle23]

This is a great point. We had a bunch of nobody relievers last year. Not sure I'm going to give Robin a lot credit for ditching any of them fairly quickly.

 

At the same time, he shouldnt get the blame when the entire pen couldnt get outs(which he did get a lot of the blame). The biggest example to me was the extra inning game where they ran out of pitchers. Well, they ran out of pitchers because every pitcher gave up hits and walks and had to be removed.

[caulfield12]

At best, the results are mixed.

 

2012, we used, what, 12-13 different rookies....mostly in the bullpen, along with Quintana. In that situation, he did about as good a job as possible but the last 2-3 weeks were a different story, that 4-11 finish.

 

2013 was pretty much a disaster from all standpoints.

 

2014, we were lacking in talent/personnel...of course, the opposite's true heading into 2015, so a lot of questions SHOULD be answered this season about Ventura as a manager.

 

All indications are that he's probably about average or just a notch below in most aspects (keeping calm and even-keeled being his best quality)...the bigger question is whether he can help push a team with talent that's a bit "above average" into a playoff spot? Will the team be dragged down or can he manage to elevate them...by 1 or 2 or 3 games, whatever it is that we can all agree is the actual number of games a "great" manager can make in difference over an average or below-average one?

 

If Ned Yost could do it in 2014, why not Ventura in 2015?

 

He's not going to have the past as an excuse. Other than a few players who have been questionable on the fundamental side of things like Ramirez and Viciedo, he's got an almost entirely different ball club than the one Detroit blew past down the stretch in 2012.

[ptatc]

At best, the results are mixed.

 

2012, we used, what, 12-13 different rookies....mostly in the bullpen, along with Quintana. In that situation, he did about as good a job as possible but the last 2-3 weeks were a different story, that 4-11 finish.

 

2013 was pretty much a disaster from all standpoints.

 

2014, we were lacking in talent/personnel...of course, the opposite's true heading into 2015, so a lot of questions SHOULD be answered this season about Ventura as a manager.

 

All indications are that he's probably about average or just a notch below in most aspects (keeping calm and even-keeled being his best quality)...the bigger question is whether he can help push a team with talent that's a bit "above average" into a playoff spot? Will the team be dragged down or can he manage to elevate them...by 1 or 2 or 3 games, whatever it is that we can all agree is the actual number of games a "great" manager can make in difference over an average or below-average one?

 

If Ned Yost could do it in 2014, why not Ventura in 2015?

 

He's not going to have the past as an excuse. Other than a few players who have been questionable on the fundamental side of things like Ramirez and Viciedo, he's got an almost entirely different ball club than the one Detroit blew past down the stretch in 2012.

I would agree. Short of long term injuries to key players, Ventura has good players to work with and his worth as a manager should be evident. Good or Bad. I tend to agree with your assessment so far, he is right around average. However, I do think he still has room to grow as he gains experience, especially experience with a team with decent talent. It's hard to learn which players to use in a given situation when the players suck.

[Reddy]

I would agree. Short of long term injuries to key players, Ventura has good players to work with and his worth as a manager should be evident. Good or Bad. I tend to agree with your assessment so far, he is right around average. However, I do think he still has room to grow as he gains experience, especially experience with a team with decent talent. It's hard to learn which players to use in a given situation when the players suck.

 

I'd be curious as to why everyone thinks he's average, or below. Are there statistics? Is it the eye test? Or is it that he bears the brunt of frustrations when the team is full of crappy players?

 

[AlSoxfan]

My question is did RV manage the bullpen or did Coop? I still have to scratch my head in wonder when he brought in LGar in a tie game in April.

[Kyyle23]

My question is did RV manage the bullpen or did Coop? I still have to scratch my head in wonder when he brought in LGar in a tie game in April.

 

you mean the game i just referenced when they ran out of pitchers, because not one pitcher could get an out?

[Chicago White Sox]

I'd be curious as to why everyone thinks he's average, or below. Are there statistics? Is it the eye test? Or is it that he bears the brunt of frustrations when the team is full of crappy players?

How many statistics are out there for quantifying manager effectiveness?

[ptatc]

My question is did RV manage the bullpen or did Coop? I still have to scratch my head in wonder when he brought in LGar in a tie game in April.

In most situations the pitching coach suggests what to do and the manager makes the decision, usually in line with the pitching coach. With Cooper's experience and success, Robin usually listens to Cooper but he makes the final decision.

[Reddy]

How many statistics are out there for quantifying manager effectiveness?

 

I just read an entire article about it.

 

But that's also my point. You're all basing his worth as manager on the fact that we've had some s***ty teams. Players seem to like playing for him. We just signed all the free agents. There must be a reason players want to be here, right?

[AlSoxfan]

you mean the game i just referenced when they ran out of pitchers, because not one pitcher could get an out?

Yes, I guess I figured he just got mad and said anybody can pitch as good as you guys. Which I can't say I blame him, but still the game was tied. It felt like to me he was frustrated and gave up.

[AlSoxfan]

In most situations the pitching coach suggests what to do and the manager makes the decision, usually in line with the pitching coach. With Cooper's experience and success, Robin usually listens to Cooper but he makes the final decision.

Thats about what I figured. So it's hard to put it all on RV in any case good or bad. Unless we're talking RV's coaching staff, RV being the figure head.

Edited December 16, 2014 by AlSoxfan

[Reddy]

Yes, I guess I figured he just got mad and said anybody can pitch as good as you guys. Which I can't say I blame him, but still the game was tied. It felt like to me he was frustrated and gave up.

What?? He had used all of his pitchers... What should he have done? Send Coop out there to throw?

[Kyyle23]

Yes, I guess I figured he just got mad and said anybody can pitch as good as you guys. Which I can't say I blame him, but still the game was tied. It felt like to me he was frustrated and gave up.

 

He literally had no pitchers left, unless he was going to turn to a starter that was due to throw that day for between-start conditioning.

[AlSoxfan]

What?? He had used all of his pitchers... What should he have done? Send Coop out there to throw?

So you figure he just lost count of how many pitchers he had in the bullpen? Is it better to use a ss who's never pitched before in his life in a tie game?

[Chicago White Sox]

I just read an entire article about it.

 

But that's also my point. You're all basing his worth as manager on the fact that we've had some s***ty teams. Players seem to like playing for him. We just signed all the free agents. There must be a reason players want to be here, right?

First, I would question the validity of any stat that attempts to measure effectiveness. If you have a list of some of these metrics then please share.

 

Second, some people may be unable to separate the talent level from the manager' performance, but that doesn't mean we all do. I only worry about the things Robin can control, which talent hasn't nothing to do with. I personally think he's a poor in-game decision-maker. I feel like he doesn't think two or three moves ahead ever. I'm also skeptical that he uses much data in his decision-making. Overall, I just don't find him to be a very strategic person.