Should #13 be put back in circulation?

[ptatc]

You are ignoring that as a manager he was completely out for himself in the end. He did not give a flying f*** about the white sox.

Yes, but was all on him?

 

i'm looking at the whole career not just a couple of years. You can look at the few, if you wish. I'm partially jaded in that he was a fun person the few times I had the chance to hang out with him and most everyone likes him as a person.

 

Everyone can have their own opinion, I just happen to think that he did an awful lot for this team and was a key component in the success of the team for a number of years.

[max power]

He did a lot of good. But he was a mediocre player and manager overall. I respect your opinion but I disagree.

[ptatc]

He is also one of the worst long term hitters in baseball history.

But a very good defensive shortstop at a time when that was a premium.

 

Medically speaking he was also very important. Up until his injury with the collision with Raines, we tried to do an ACL reconstruction as soon as possible after the injury. His case was one of the first high profile ones where they waitined for the swelling to go down and regain the range first, then did the surgery. It was somewhat controversial the time.

[ptatc]

He did a lot of good. But he was a mediocre player and manager overall. I respect your opinion but I disagree.

It's just a matter of opinion on what you think is important to the franchise.

 

I don't think being one of the winningist mangers with the only modern era world series title is mediocre for the team. He is one of the best they've ever had. That coupled with being an outstanding shortstop for over a decade is an important figure for the team.

 

I won't complain if it doesn't happen but I think he is worthy of consideration.

[LDF]

But a very good defensive shortstop at a time when that was a premium.

 

Medically speaking he was also very important. Up until his injury with the collision with Raines, we tried to do an ACL reconstruction as soon as possible after the injury. His case was one of the first high profile ones where they waitined for the swelling to go down and regain the range first, then did the surgery. It was somewhat controversial the time.

 

here is my opinion i have a dislike of him. but that will

not stop me from recognizing that he was no hit great

D that help the infield. he was valuable as a player.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Possible, but he had very productive years after the injury so I don't think it effected his play at the time. He had surgery to clean up the ankle once he decided to retire. He could have done this earlier and returned to baseball but I think he knew it was coming to an end and waited.

There is no way to know for sure but I don't think his numbers would have continued to increase and while he was very good there was only one year that he would have been considered one of the best and it was post injury.

 

From my experience with this type of injury, I just don't think it really effected his play much, other than maybe shortening the career.

 

Ventura stated when he retired it was because of the pain in his ankle and the weakness of that leg. It got to the point, as we have stated, that he had to walk with a cane until his additional surgery in 2005. He put up some decent power numbers later in his career but that was about it. He didn't hit higher than .250 after age 31.

 

During his prime he was absolutely one of the best in the game and that's not really debatable. For his entire career he averaged 4.5 fWAR per season and before 2000 he averaged 5.3 fWAR. Do you know how many position players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year, just 21. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a single year you are one hell of a player. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a decade you deserve to be in the HOF discussion.

Edited January 5, 2015 by lasttriptotulsa

[flavum]

I never realized how mediocre Ted Lyons was. There's another number they can unretire as far as I'm concerned.

[ptatc]

Ventura stated when he retired it was because of the pain in his ankle and the weakness of that leg. It got to the point, as we have stated, that he had to walk with a cane until his additional surgery in 2005. He put up some decent power numbers later in his career but that was about it. He didn't hit higher than .250 after age 31.

 

During his prime he was absolutely one of the best in the game and that's not really debatable. For his entire career he averaged 4.5 fWAR per season and before 2000 he averaged 5.3 fWAR. Do you know how many position players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year, just 21. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a single year you are one hell of a player. If you are a top 20 player in baseball for a decade you deserve to be in the HOF discussion.

I realize the part about the retirement. However, he also could have had the surgery earlier and then returned to baseball. He chose just to ride it out. You don't really see him limping or using a cane now. The surgery cleaned everything out. It is never going to be perfect but it would have extended his career but he would have had to miss a significant part of a season to do it.

 

Maybe it was because of him playing with Frank Thomas but I just didn't see him as one of the best hitters in baseball. A very good hitter but not one of the best. Maybe the abundance of PED performances jaded it as well. You mentioned that only 21 players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year that would have made him a top 21 hitter, I don't consider a top 21 hitter in a given year a HOF caliber player. HOF should be in the top 10 at least over a long period of time. How many of the players in his era had that type of fWAR? I'm sure it is more than now. That would put him in the top 30 range. I just don't see that as one of the best players of all time and HOF worthy.

 

Just my opinion but I don't see it.

[ptatc]

I never realized how mediocre Ted Lyons was. There's another number they can unretire as far as I'm concerned.

If you play 21 years for a single team, your number should be retired just on principle. Other than the fact that he is in the HOF.

[BigEdWalsh]

I never realized how mediocre Ted Lyons was. There's another number they can unretire as far as I'm concerned.

A 3.67 career E.R.A. in that era is pretty decent and winning 260 games for a bad White Sox team year after year ain't too shabby.

[Douglas Rome]

When I think of HOF players, to me, they have to be great players. granted,

there are lots of guys in the HOF who ain't exactly "great". I loved Nellie Fox

and because I'm a White Sox fan and grew up on him, when I look back on it

he wasn't really a great player. thanks, douglas

[greg775]

Yes, but was all on him?

 

i'm looking at the whole career not just a couple of years. You can look at the few, if you wish. I'm partially jaded in that he was a fun person the few times I had the chance to hang out with him and most everyone likes him as a person.

 

Everyone can have their own opinion, I just happen to think that he did an awful lot for this team and was a key component in the success of the team for a number of years.

 

He's like most ballplayers in that he's all about the buck. Big deal. It ended badly. You can't tell me, though, that Ozzie Guillen doesn't care about Jerry and the White Sox.

I mean sure Guillen is a spoiled-rotten ex-ballplayer. But in the big picture, he bleeds White Sox black. You can't convince me otherwise of that.

The bottom line is it was a Kenny-Ozzie war and Kenny won the war. Kenny won decisively cause Ozzie doesn't figure to manage ever again. Will he work in baseball again in any capacity?? Not so sure except in broadcasting.

Kenny does deserve credit, for lauding Ozzie publicly in the press all the time, when he clearly could rub it in after winning the war. As much as I worship Ozzie, I think if he'd have won the war, he'd probably still be needling Kenny in the press.

[LDF]

He's like most ballplayers in that he's all about the buck. Big deal. It ended badly. You can't tell me, though, that Ozzie Guillen doesn't care about Jerry and the White Sox.

I mean sure Guillen is a spoiled-rotten ex-ballplayer. But in the big picture, he bleeds White Sox black. You can't convince me otherwise of that.

The bottom line is it was a Kenny-Ozzie war and Kenny won the war. Kenny won decisively cause Ozzie doesn't figure to manage ever again. Will he work in baseball again in any capacity?? Not so sure except in broadcasting.

Kenny does deserve credit, for lauding Ozzie publicly in the press all the time, when he clearly could rub it in after winning the war. As much as I worship Ozzie, I think if he'd have won the war, he'd probably still be needling Kenny in the press.

 

there were several things that derailed Ozzie. the one important item or thing that triggered

it was Ozzie's kid. he was a parent coming to defend his kid. he didn't or couldn't care

if it was his kid fault.

 

i don't ever remember where someone relations has so much media presence than his sons.

that whole crap was of the ozzie's doing in some shape.

 

granted Ozzie by default as being the manager, won the WS in 05, could anyone other

manager have done that, who knows he was the manager.

 

does that justify his number to be retired~ no.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I realize the part about the retirement. However, he also could have had the surgery earlier and then returned to baseball. He chose just to ride it out. You don't really see him limping or using a cane now. The surgery cleaned everything out. It is never going to be perfect but it would have extended his career but he would have had to miss a significant part of a season to do it.

 

Maybe it was because of him playing with Frank Thomas but I just didn't see him as one of the best hitters in baseball. A very good hitter but not one of the best. Maybe the abundance of PED performances jaded it as well. You mentioned that only 21 players had a 5.3 fWAR season last year that would have made him a top 21 hitter, I don't consider a top 21 hitter in a given year a HOF caliber player. HOF should be in the top 10 at least over a long period of time. How many of the players in his era had that type of fWAR? I'm sure it is more than now. That would put him in the top 30 range. I just don't see that as one of the best players of all time and HOF worthy.

 

Just my opinion but I don't see it.

 

You state that you don't see a top 21 hitter as being HOF caliber but I disagree. Just for fun I looked at an average fWAR season (1995) for Ventura just to see how many future HOFers were active during that year. I am only counting either players already elected or players guaranteed to be elected at some point. I am not counting PED users (Clemens, Bonds, etc.) or borderline candidates that may get in at some point (Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, etc.). The number of guaranteed future HOFers in 1995 was 30. If you count the PED users and borderline guys you can add about a dozen more to that number. So there were roughly 40-45 active HOF caliber players playing in 1995 which is a year that Ventura finished 25th amongst all players (pitchers included) in fWAR. And that was really just an average year for him.

 

I really don't think you are appreciating how good a fWAR season is or how hard they are to achieve. To try and show you I will compare Robin Ventura to 10 players who have either been recently inducted or will be inducted soon into the HOF. I will also compare him to 3 HOF third basemen who I think he compares favorably to at least during his peak. These players will be Craig Biggio, Frank Thomas, Ron Santo, Barry Larkin, Roberto Alomar, Andre Dawson, Jim Rice, Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken Jr, Tony Gwynn, Derek Jeter, Ken Griffey Jr, Jim Thome, Brooks Robinson and Paul Molitor

 

To start off with, I will look at the number of 5.0 or better fWAR seasons each player had.

 

1. Ken Griffey Jr - 9

2. Frank Thomas - 8

2. Ron Santo - 8

2. Barry Larkin - 8

2. Cal Ripken Jr - 8

6. Brooks Robinson - 7

7. Robin Ventura - 6

7. Roberto Alomar - 6

7. Paul Molitor - 6

10. Jim Rice - 5

10. Derek Jeter - 5

10. Jim Thome - 5

13. Andre Dawson - 4

13. Tony Gwynn - 4

13. Craig Biggio - 3

 

As you can see, Robin Ventura ranks right in the middle of the pack with a pretty good group of recent HOFers and HOF third baseman.

 

Next lets compare each players fWAR per 162 for the duration of their career.

 

1. Frank Thomas - 5.1

1. Ron Santo - 5.1

3. Barry Larkin - 5.0

3. Cal Ripken Jr - 5.0

5. Ken Griffey Jr - 4.7

6. Brooks Robinson - 4.5

7. Robin Ventura - 4.4

7. Roberto Alomar - 4.4

9. Derek Jeter - 4.3

9. Tony Gwynn - 4.3

9. Jim Thome - 4.3

12. Paul Molitor - 4.1

13. Jim Rice - 3.9

14. Craig Biggio - 3.7

15. Andre Dawson - 3.7

 

Once again, Robin Ventura is right in the middle of the pack and right on par or better than some sure fire HOF players.

 

For a final comparison, I will look at each players fWAR per 162 games during what I will consider each players' 10 year peak.

 

1. Ken Griffey Jr - 7.7

2. Ron Santo - 6.8

3. Cal Ripken Jr - 6.7

4. Barry Larkin - 6.4

5. Frank Thomas - 6.3

6. Brooks Robinson - 5.6

6. Jim Thome - 5.6

8. Craig Biggio - 5.5

9. Robin Ventura - 5.4

9. Derek Jeter - 5.4

9. Roberto Alomar - 5.4

12. Paul Molitor - 5.1

12. Andre Dawson - 5.1

12. Tony Gwynn - 5.1

15. Jim Rice - 5.0

 

Once again, Robin Ventura is right in the middle of the pack and is tied with two guys who are considered to be amongst the best to ever play their positions in Jeter and Alomar.

 

Through all of this it really shows that at his best Robin Ventura was as good as many recent HOFers and was actually better than a good number of them. The biggest difference between Robin Ventura and the rest of these guys is the lengths of their careers. Those other players averaged 2547 games played during their careers. Robin Ventura played just 2079 games. Much of which was due to his injury. Those extra 468 games allowed some of these players to achieve some of the counting milestones that voters look for.

 

If we gave Robin Ventura those extra 468 games, and we assume he played at his career averages during that time, his stats we look as follows.

 

2309 H, 414 2B, 360 HRs, 1448 RBIs, 1316 BBs and a .267/.362/.444/.806 slash line to go along with 69.5 fWAR.

 

That is a borderline HOF career when you add in the multiple Gold Gloves. I'm not saying that Robin Ventura should be in the HOF or that he would be if he wasn't injured, I'm just saying he is a lot closer than you are giving him credit for. At his peak he was better than Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Paul Molitor and Tony Gwynn and was tied with Derek Jeter and Roberto Alomar. Yet those guys all have, or will have, plaques in Cooperstown while Robin Ventura fell off the ballot on the first try and is not remembered by most for just how great of a player he was. Not that it matters to his MLB career, but many consider him to be one of the best, if not the best, college players of all time also.

Edited January 9, 2015 by lasttriptotulsa

[LDF]

2309 H, 414 2B, 360 HRs, 1448 RBIs, 1316 BBs and a .267/.362/.444/.806 slash line to go along with 69.5 fWAR.

 

That is a borderline HOF career when you add in the multiple Gold Gloves. I'm not saying that Robin Ventura should be in the HOF or that he would be if he wasn't injured, I'm just saying he is a lot closer than you are giving him credit for. At his peak he was better than Jim Rice, Andre Dawson, Paul Molitor and Tony Gwynn and was tied with Derek Jeter and Roberto Alomar. Yet those guys all have, or will have, plaques in Cooperstown while Robin Ventura fell off the ballot on the first try and is not remembered by most for just how great of a player he was. Not that it matters to his MLB career, but many consider him to be one of the best, if not the best, college players of all time also.

 

a very nice break down and i can see your hard work.

 

very nice.

[caulfield12]

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseba...soon----kind-of

 

 

Article on Ozzie returning for the 10 year championship reunion and his current relationship with the team.