Brian Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 07:09 AM) Ok, how about an example within the last 3 years when the disparity between the leagues has appeared to have grown I'd have to think about it but wonder if it's really worth it because I'm sure people will keep changing the criteria to fit their side of the argument. Konerko count? Vlad won an MVP in Anaheim. Edited September 10, 2015 by Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (Brian @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 07:28 AM) I'd have to think about it but wonder if it's really worth it because I'm sure people will keep changing the criteria to fit their side of the argument. Konerko count? Vlad won an MVP in Anaheim. Honestly I struggled to find a hitter that's gone from NL to AL in the last few years that's drastically improved. Meanwhile there have been a number of AL players moving to the NL with much greater success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Not many examples. Cain and Escobar came out of an NL system. Choo has done fairly well with the Rangers, although not worth his contract. Altuve in the AL has held his own. Russell Martin has been pretty good but not like with Pitt. Adam Eaton? It does seem 90% of the improvements come from players going AL to NL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Chappas Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 The NL is a joke. The cubs are having a 2000 White Sox type season. One of those where everything goes right. Arrietta's career high IP prior to this season is 156....I still think there is something there and it is not going to end well for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 07:58 AM) Not many examples. Cain and Escobar came out of an NL system. Choo has done fairly well with the Rangers, although not worth his contract. Altuve in the AL has held his own. Russell Martin has been pretty good but not like with Pitt. Adam Eaton? It does seem 90% of the improvements come from players going AL to NL. Cain and Escobar have been with the royals for more than a few years now. Choo had a much better offensive season with the Reds in 2013 than the last two years with the Rangers. The Astros are now in their third season in the AL - last time they played in the NL was 2012. Martin has had a worse offensive this year than last year with the Pirates. Eaton never played a full season in the NL before joining the Sox (88 games over two seasons with Arizona). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 07:58 AM) Not many examples. Cain and Escobar came out of an NL system. Choo has done fairly well with the Rangers, although not worth his contract. Altuve in the AL has held his own. Russell Martin has been pretty good but not like with Pitt. Adam Eaton? It does seem 90% of the improvements come from players going AL to NL. Choo started with the Indians, so that really doesnt count Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 If you rank the top 10 AL hitters by OPS this season, 5 of them switched from the NL to the AL. (Miggy, Tex, Bautista, E5, JD Martinez) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 Let's look at the top hitters to change leagues in the 2014-2015 off season and how they have fared this season after spending the entire season in the other league during the prior season: Hanley Ramirez (NL to AL): D significantly Pablo Sandoval (NL to AL): D significantly Russell Martin (NL to AL): D significantly Nori Aoki (AL to NL): NC - shortened season due to injury Nick Markakis (AL to NL): I slightly Adam Laroche (NL to AL): D significantly Legend: I = increased offensive production D = decreased offensive production NC = relatively no change in offensive production Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:19 AM) If you rank the top 10 AL hitters by OPS this season, 5 of them switched from the NL to the AL. (Miggy, Tex, Bautista, E5, JD Martinez) again, how many within the last 3 years where I believe there has been a significant shift in pitching (and hitting) talent between the leagues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 last two NL batting champs had recently moved from the AL to NL (Cuddyer and Morneau) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:24 AM) last two NL batting champs had recently moved from the AL to NL (Cuddyer and Morneau) Coors Field* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:21 AM) Let's look at the top hitters to change leagues in the 2014-2015 off season and how they have fared this season after spending the entire season in the other league during the prior season: Hanley Ramirez (NL to AL): D significantly Pablo Sandoval (NL to AL): D significantly Russell Martin (NL to AL): D significantly Nori Aoki (AL to NL): NC - shortened season due to injury Nick Markakis (AL to NL): I slightly Adam Laroche (NL to AL): D significantly Legend: I = increased offensive production D = decreased offensive production NC = relatively no change in offensive production All those guys are old and/or fat and/or lazy. They were expected to decrease. I'm not arguing against the NL being a weaker league, but you need better examples than 30+ old free agents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:21 AM) Let's look at the top hitters to change leagues in the 2014-2015 off season and how they have fared this season after spending the entire season in the other league during the prior season: Hanley Ramirez (NL to AL): D significantly Pablo Sandoval (NL to AL): D significantly Russell Martin (NL to AL): D significantly Nori Aoki (AL to NL): NC - shortened season due to injury Nick Markakis (AL to NL): I slightly Adam Laroche (NL to AL): D significantly Legend: I = increased offensive production D = decreased offensive production NC = relatively no change in offensive production Not gonna bother disputing your general point, but I have a problem with a couple of those names. You can blame a lot of Hanley's season on age/injury/his general inconsistency, and Russell Martin is just kind of returning to normal after a career year. Assigning their declines to the league change just seems like shoehorning in a theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:31 AM) Not gonna bother disputing your general point, but I have a problem with a couple of those names. You can blame a lot of Hanley's season on age/injury/his general inconsistency, and Russell Martin is just kind of returning to normal after a career year. Assigning their declines to the league change just seems like shoehorning in a theory. I am open to other examples that refute the theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:28 AM) All those guys are old and/or fat and/or lazy. They were expected to decrease. I'm not arguing against the NL being a weaker league, but you need better examples than 30+ old free agents. I haven't looked at the 2013-2014 free agents that made the same move but I imagine you'd find similar results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:26 AM) Coors Field* if it was that simple why wouldn't the NL batting champ every season reside in Colorado? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) I am open to other examples that refute the theory Brian McCann is having his best hitting season since 2011, including two years in Atlanta. The weakness of the AL East is the only possible explanation, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:54 AM) Brian McCann is having his best hitting season since 2011, including two years in Atlanta. The weakness of the AL East is the only possible explanation, right? His numbers are nearly identical to his last season in the NL (2013) and he was awful last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:54 AM) if it was that simple why wouldn't the NL batting champ every season reside in Colorado? 4 different Rockies in 8 years won the batting title, I would call that significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:51 AM) I am open to other examples that refute the theory Which I told you I'm not interested in finding. QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 10:54 AM) if it was that simple why wouldn't the NL batting champ every season reside in Colorado? He wasn't saying it was that simple, but Coors field provides an undeniable increase to hitters' numbers. Your example of Cuddyer makes no sense anyway. His first year in the NL was worse than his last in the AL. The NL is so bad, but it took him a year to realize that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 11:08 AM) Which I told you I'm not interested in finding. He wasn't saying it was that simple, but Coors field provides an undeniable increase to hitters' numbers. Your example of Cuddyer makes no sense anyway. His first year in the NL was worse than his last in the AL. The NL is so bad, but it took him a year to realize that? Agreed Coors provides an advantage but enough that a 34 year old wins his first batting title after never hitting over 284 in the AL? I thought it was stated previously that the free agents I pointed out were bad examples because they were over 30 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 11:05 AM) 4 different Rockies in 8 years won the batting title, I would call that significant. Not disputing that it is a significant advantage playing in Coors but see response above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shysocks Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 11:18 AM) Agreed Coors provides an advantage but enough that a 34 year old wins his first batting title after never hitting over 284 in the AL? I thought it was stated previously that the free agents I pointed out were bad examples because they were over 30 years old? What? I didn't even say anything about the other guys. I said Cuddyer doesn't support your point. He hit .260 his first year in Coors and then hit .331 the next one. How can you possibly attribute that to changing leagues? And for the record, the Rockies are hitting .301 at Coors this season and .233 elsewhere. In the last five years they've hit no lower than .274 at home and no higher than .246 away. So yes, it is possibly enough for a 34-year-old to win his first batting title after never hitting over .284 in the AL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 11:05 AM) His numbers are nearly identical to his last season in the NL (2013) and he was awful last season. So when healthy, switching leagues had zero effect on his numbers. Perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JUSTgottaBELIEVE Posted September 10, 2015 Share Posted September 10, 2015 QUOTE (shysocks @ Sep 10, 2015 -> 11:24 AM) What? I didn't even say anything about the other guys. I said Cuddyer doesn't support your point. He hit .260 his first year in Coors and then hit .331 the next one. How can you possibly attribute that to changing leagues? And for the record, the Rockies are hitting .301 at Coors this season and .233 elsewhere. In the last five years they've hit no lower than .274 at home and no higher than .246 away. So yes, it is possibly enough for a 34-year-old to win his first batting title after never hitting over .284 in the AL. That's all good except for the fact that he also hit 311 on the road in 2013 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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