Have you noticed the difference?

[Eminor3rd]

There's been a lot of "why didn't we go get the final couple pieces?" and "prospects are just prospects are bust rate Mitchell ahead of Trout blah blah" lately, and I think that both types of complaints are short-sighted; they don't take the RH master plan or the current competitive state of the MLB into perspective. I think they represent obsolete lines of thought that describe the environment ten or so years ago but are not relevant or useful in the climate today. But I haven't been able to communicate my argument very well, partially because I'm not sure I even UNDERSTOOD my argument very well. But with yesterday's release of Keith Law's system rankings, I think it all finally makes sense in a concrete way.

 

Let me ask you this:

 

When was the last time the Sox went into the season billed as a legitimate playoff contender AND had a top-half ranked farm system?

 

THIS is what it's supposed to look like. This is the "sustainable competitiveness" model in its infancy. It doesn't matter if you think Law is too high or too low on the system or Sullivan is too low on the Sox 2015 chances, the point is that they are in the running and somehow still on the upswing, both in terms of the ML roster AND the farm system.

 

This team has flaws, and we should admit it. If the team doesn't meet our expectations, I think it will be due to some combination of our lack of depth being exposed and the fact that we always assume that our superstars will never regress from exceptional performances for some reason. But there's no question that the team is a "contender." And unlike the previous KW-branded regime, it came without the cost of ruining the future.

 

So next time you feel like JR is stingy or that RH values prospects too much, look how far RH has taken this ship in just two years, and look how much brighter things look from ALL angles than they have since October of 2005. It's about balance and patience. It'll probably mean we will always be able to find holes in our team and always wish they would have spent $20m more, but if they can avoid tipping the scales too much in either direction (present or future), we can look forward to going into every season with justified hopes for the playoffs.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[southsider2k5]

The big difference is that Kenny Williams always did spend the extra to get that one more guy, and took it away from spending on the minor leagues. As a GM you have to make that choice. That's why they get the big bucks. Sure they could bring in the one more guy, but what if it costs you Steven Adams because you have to spend lower amounts on your draft picks. It could mean you don't have the $1.6 million to spend on an Adolfo, and instead stay in the $250 to $500k range of guys with lower ceilings.

 

Those major league roster decisions do have a ripple affect through the rest of the organization. Do you want the depth signing now, or the lottery ticket for the future?

[ewokpelts]

I think they look great.

 

Will they win a WS automatically? No.

But they have as good of a chance as anyone to compete all years long.

[Rowand44]

There's been a lot of "why didn't we go the the final couple pieces?" and "prospects are just prospects are bust rate Mitchell ahead of Trout blah blah" lately, and I think that both types of complaints are short-sighted; they don't take the RH master plan or the current competitive state of the MLB into perspective. I think they represent obsolete lines of thought that describe the environment ten or so years ago but are not relevant or useful in the climate today. But I haven't been able to communicate my argument very well, partially because I'm not sure I even UNDERSTOOD my argument very well. But with yesterday's release of Keith Law's system rankings, I think it all finally makes sense in a concrete way.

 

Let me ask you this:

 

When was the last time the Sox went into the season billed as a legitimate playoff contender AND had a top-half ranked farm system?

 

THIS is what it's supposed to look like. This is the "sustainable competitiveness" model in its infancy. It doesn't matter if you think Law is too high or too low on the system or Sullivan is too low on the Sox 2015 chances, the point is that they are in the running and somehow still on the upswing, both in terms of the ML roster AND the farm system.

 

This team has flaws, and we should admit it. If the team doesn't meet our expectations, I think it will be due to some combination of our lack of depth being exposed and the fact that we always assume that our superstars will never regress from exceptional performances for some reason. But there's no question that the team is a "contender." And unlike the previous KW-branded regime, it came without the cost of ruining the future.

 

So next time you feel like JR is stingy or that RH values prospects too much, look how far RH has taken this ship in just two years, and look how much brighter things look from ALL angles than they have since October of 2005. It's about balance and patience. It'll probably mean we will always be able to find holes in our team and always wish they would have spent $20m more, but if they can avoid tipping the scales too much in either direction (present or future), we can look forward to going into every season with justified hopes for the playoffs.

Rowand44 likes this post.

[ewokpelts]

The big difference is that Kenny Williams always did spend the extra to get that one more guy, and took it away from spending on the minor leagues. As a GM you have to make that choice. That's why they get the big bucks. Sure they could bring in the one more guy, but what if it costs you Steven Adams because you have to spend lower amounts on your draft picks. It could mean you don't have the $1.6 million to spend on an Adolfo, and instead stay in the $250 to $500k range of guys with lower ceilings.

 

Those major league roster decisions do have a ripple affect through the rest of the organization. Do you want the depth signing now, or the lottery ticket for the future?

Is it a coinkydink that the new draft system favors the white sox? I think not

 

Sox have done slot pay before it was the rule.

[southsider2k5]

Is it a coinkydink that the new draft system favors the white sox? I think not

 

Sox have done slot pay before it was the rule.

 

That is what you get when you have a powerful owner.

 

But let's not pretend that following that system didn't cost the White Sox a lot of potentially great players that they passed on in order to say in those slots, in order to funnel more money to the major league roster.

[Eminor3rd]

The big difference is that Kenny Williams always did spend the extra to get that one more guy, and took it away from spending on the minor leagues. As a GM you have to make that choice. That's why they get the big bucks. Sure they could bring in the one more guy, but what if it costs you Steven Adams because you have to spend lower amounts on your draft picks. It could mean you don't have the $1.6 million to spend on an Adolfo, and instead stay in the $250 to $500k range of guys with lower ceilings.

 

Those major league roster decisions do have a ripple affect through the rest of the organization. Do you want the depth signing now, or the lottery ticket for the future?

 

Exactly -- and with the second WC and a little restraint, we can have both. The cost is that we'll never have a "superteam," probably.

[witesoxfan]

The idea of shooting for the middle - meaning a Wild Card - and building for the future is an idea that I think most teams in the game are copying at this point because it makes so much sense. Given the parity across the major leagues right now, you could acquire a ton of high upside players and build a fairly decent looking team while boosting the payroll to exorbitant levels, and still end up missing the playoffs simply based on dumb luck. And in the event that those guys actually end up declining and getting way worse, you're left with some of the worst contracts in the game (like Josh Hamilton or Albert Pujols).

 

Being the optimist I am, I'd handicap the Sox odds of making the playoffs somewhere around 33-40%. I think there's a good chance that they do end up playing at least in the Wild Card game, but more than likely they just miss. A lot will depend on the back end of the rotation and the bullpen closing games out.

 

 

[Rowand44]

And once again, the Sox are a team that is set up better for the playoffs than they are for the regular season. So if we can sneak into a Wild Card spot, we'll be extremely dangerous.

[southsider2k5]

And once again, the Sox are a team that is set up better for the playoffs than they are for the regular season. So if we can sneak into a Wild Card spot, we'll be extremely dangerous.

 

This is 100% true. Get into the playoffs and drop a starter, and this team looks a TON better.

[Reddy]

There's been a lot of "why didn't we go get the final couple pieces?" and "prospects are just prospects are bust rate Mitchell ahead of Trout blah blah" lately, and I think that both types of complaints are short-sighted; they don't take the RH master plan or the current competitive state of the MLB into perspective. I think they represent obsolete lines of thought that describe the environment ten or so years ago but are not relevant or useful in the climate today. But I haven't been able to communicate my argument very well, partially because I'm not sure I even UNDERSTOOD my argument very well. But with yesterday's release of Keith Law's system rankings, I think it all finally makes sense in a concrete way.

 

Let me ask you this:

 

When was the last time the Sox went into the season billed as a legitimate playoff contender AND had a top-half ranked farm system?

 

THIS is what it's supposed to look like. This is the "sustainable competitiveness" model in its infancy. It doesn't matter if you think Law is too high or too low on the system or Sullivan is too low on the Sox 2015 chances, the point is that they are in the running and somehow still on the upswing, both in terms of the ML roster AND the farm system.

 

This team has flaws, and we should admit it. If the team doesn't meet our expectations, I think it will be due to some combination of our lack of depth being exposed and the fact that we always assume that our superstars will never regress from exceptional performances for some reason. But there's no question that the team is a "contender." And unlike the previous KW-branded regime, it came without the cost of ruining the future.

 

So next time you feel like JR is stingy or that RH values prospects too much, look how far RH has taken this ship in just two years, and look how much brighter things look from ALL angles than they have since October of 2005. It's about balance and patience. It'll probably mean we will always be able to find holes in our team and always wish they would have spent $20m more, but if they can avoid tipping the scales too much in either direction (present or future), we can look forward to going into every season with justified hopes for the playoffs.

 

totally agree with everything you say. I don't expect a playoff spot, so that's why I keep saying "competitive" instead of "contender", but if they do, I agree that we're set up very well for a 3 or 5 or 7 game series.

[LDF]

i am and have been a diehard sox fan. more that the normal, no, less than the normal, no. but this does not stop me from wanting the sox to do that little extra, to get that extra player. unrealistic, yeah if i want a team of a payroll greater than 150 mil.

 

all this yrs, esp last yr, the owner rep has stated no money. the fans are not supporting the team. well with the economy being what it is, do anyone blame the fans, the diehard fans?? well we found out that the money claim is all false. a blatant lie and deceit. but this is not the point here.

 

the point for this discussion is the art of patience. we as fans been as patient as any, but as some one said, would you spend, example of prospect Adams, let me put it this way. if a person cut him self, develop an infection and has no choice but to remove the limb or loosing their life. they will remove the limb.

 

well the answer is yes, i would sacrifice loosing Adams, if the reward, may lead to a World Series attendance. i trust Hahn to do the right maneuvering to oversee the system. now it is not in the hands of Hahn, he answer to KW and the final work is the owner's rep. so remember this is the person who tried to embellish the situation.

 

the fans will come out in groves, they don't need to be blackmail, put the product on the field, do and go that extra for winning the WS. this is a great time, the Sox can take over the Chi media in the summer, if they would do that little extra.

[Reddy]

i am and have been a diehard sox fan. more that the normal, no, less than the normal, no. but this does not stop me from wanting the sox to do that little extra, to get that extra player. unrealistic, yeah if i want a team of a payroll greater than 150 mil.

 

all this yrs, esp last yr, the owner rep has stated no money. the fans are not supporting the team. well with the economy being what it is, do anyone blame the fans, the diehard fans?? well we found out that the money claim is all false. a blatant lie and deceit. but this is not the point here.

 

the point for this discussion is the art of patience. we as fans been as patient as any, but as some one said, would you spend, example of prospect Adams, let me put it this way. if a person cut him self, develop an infection and has no choice but to remove the limb or loosing their life. they will remove the limb.

 

well the answer is yes, i would sacrifice loosing Adams, if the reward, may lead to a World Series attendance. i trust Hahn to do the right maneuvering to oversee the system. now it is not in the hands of Hahn, he answer to KW and the final work is the owner's rep. so remember this is the person who tried to embellish the situation.

 

the fans will come out in groves, they don't need to be blackmail, put the product on the field, do and go that extra for winning the WS. this is a great time, the Sox can take over the Chi media in the summer, if they would do that little extra.

 

So what happens if you "go that extra" and then you don't win the world series?

[LDF]

So what happens if you "go that extra" and then you don't win the world series?

 

you continue to let Hahn continue to develop the minors. we are fans we do not have all the resource that we can make those smart decision. but we are smart enuf to know that the sox are not done or should be done in the rebuild.

 

btw, getting to the world series, is good enuf, it is not the best wish, but it beats not making the playoff when the sox have great pieces to get the team there.

[Reddy]

you continue to let Hahn continue to develop the minors. we are fans we do not have all the resource that we can make those smart decision. but we are smart enuf to know that the sox are not done or should be done in the rebuild.

 

btw, getting to the world series, is good enuf, it is not the best wish, but it beats not making the playoff when the sox have great pieces to get the team there.

how do you develop the minors if you have to trade prospects to get your "extra" pieces?

 

[ptatc]

how do you develop the minors if you have to trade prospects to get your "extra" pieces?

The only purpose of the minors is to help the MLB team win. This can be done by bringing the players to the MLB team or trading them to another team for proven players. Either way the players developed in the minors and left the minors to help the MLB team.

[caulfield12]

Look at the way the Royals and Giants are approaching this season.

 

They didn't add any foolish risks or big contracts, in fact, they were almost risk-averse.

 

 

With the price of pitching in the game today, you develop 5 Adamses (see the Nationals), go into April with six quality starters and expect at least one of them to get hurt.

 

You also don't overpay middle or back of the rotation starters with long-term deals...but you do bust your balls to do everything possible to develop as many top-line starters internally.

[LDF]

how do you develop the minors if you have to trade prospects to get your "extra" pieces?

 

did i say trade all the prospects??? i said if that final piece is needed and they might have to sacrifice an Adams, i said go for it. the payment coming back will be worth. cost of diminishing return. if the price is needed, do it and possible ensure a trip to the playoff and maybe more.

 

so if that is the final piece, would you not spend, just b/c you want to save the prospect??

[ptatc]

To test this hypothesis that this top 1/2 ranked MiLB system will help the White Sox win, track the current top 30 players today..

 

1. How many make to to Chicago and contribute.

2. How many are traded and bring useful pieces.

 

I saw we as a board make a separate thread with the current ranked players and track them all individually. It will show if this system is successful in helping the White Sox.

[Reddy]

did i say trade all the prospects??? i said if that final piece is needed and they might have to sacrifice an Adams, i said go for it. the payment coming back will be worth. cost of diminishing return. if the price is needed, do it and possible ensure a trip to the playoff and maybe more.

 

so if that is the final piece, would you not spend, just b/c you want to save the prospect??

 

This team is not "one final piece" away. We have a few holes we could still use filled.

 

That said, I'm very happy where the team is at compared to a couple months ago.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Reddy

[LDF]

Look at the way the Royals and Giants are approaching this season.

 

They didn't add any foolish risks or big contracts, in fact, they were almost risk-averse.

 

 

With the price of pitching in the game today, you develop 5 Adamses (see the Nationals), go into April with six quality starters and expect at least one of them to get hurt.

 

You also don't overpay middle or back of the rotation starters with long-term deals...but you do bust your balls to do everything possible to develop as many top-line starters internally.

 

Giants have been there and won it, twice and their farm systems isn't in shambles. the sox were and are trying to play catch. by chance, lady luck is shinning us this team. she gave the team Jose A, Sale, Q and many more. the time is now. lets take advantage of the horses that this team been blessed with.

 

next yr, the team may not have Jeff S, and let say anyone else. no mattter how talented a team is built, there is still luck.

[LDF]

This team is not "one final piece" away. We have a few holes we could still use filled.

 

That said, I'm very happy where the team is at compared to a couple months ago.

 

with all due respect, but this team is really 1 very good sp away. most teams can deal with 1 or 2 weak hitting positional player. there is no way a team will field a team of 100% really above avg players.

 

1 sp to help in many ways. short term contract.

[LDF]

 

don't get me wrong, this team as is, with the minor league is a team to build a dynasty with. i am really freaking excited in what Hahn has done.

 

i am not saying the this team should be the Marlins of the late 90's and early 2000's where they spent a lot to field a team and completely dismantle it.

[southsider2k5]

The only purpose of the minors is to help the MLB team win. This can be done by bringing the players to the MLB team or trading them to another team for proven players. Either way the players developed in the minors and left the minors to help the MLB team.

 

The difference between the two is the cost of hte players on your major league roster. Kids are cheaper than the vets you trade them for.

[southsider2k5]

This team is not "one final piece" away. We have a few holes we could still use filled.

 

That said, I'm very happy where the team is at compared to a couple months ago.

 

For anyone who thinks we our, contrast our roster, and someone like Washington.