James Shields

[Eminor3rd]

Why wouldn't that mean the quality of hitter is better? 7000 more whiffs in 2014 than 2005. That is 35 2014 Chris Sales.

 

The quality of hitter IS better. There's no reason to believe that both hitters and pitchers would improve in a linear fashion at the same pace, though, and it's not surprising that it looks like we're approaching the point of velocity where humans just can't really manage it well.

 

There are other factors, too. Pitch FX shows that there's a much wider strikezone than there was 15 years ago, for example, and it's certainly possible that part of the talent imbalance is simply coincidental and temporary. But there's no question that today's athletes, on the average, are better than they used to be.

[Reddy]

He is 65,

You know exactly what I mean, and choose to deflect because you can't back up your argument.

 

/game,set,match

 

[Dick Allen]

You know exactly what I mean, and choose to deflect because you can't back up your argument.

 

/game,set,match

You can't prove your Baylor statement. He played 19 years and struck out more than 76 times twice, when he was 37 or 38. If he used the same approach, his k rate wouldn't rise drastically, if at all.

 

 

And using velocity as proof pitching is better than ever. Cleto, Belisario, Lindstrom. Check out the gun when they pitch.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Reddy]

You can't prove your Baylor statement. He played 19 years and struck out more than 76 times twice, when he was 37 or 38.

 

 

And using velocity as proof pitching is better than ever. Cleto, Belisario, Lindstrom. Check out the gun when they pitch.

 

did you even bother to read my multiple long posts with detailed statistics showing you that pitching today is better than it was 10 years ago? If you did even an iota of research you'd see you're dead wrong about this.

[Reddy]

You can't prove your Baylor statement. He played 19 years and struck out more than 76 times twice, when he was 37 or 38. If he used the same approach, his k rate wouldn't rise drastically, if at all.

 

 

And using velocity as proof pitching is better than ever. Cleto, Belisario, Lindstrom. Check out the gun when they pitch.

 

Belisario was almost a 2 WAR pitcher last year FYI. He got incredibly unlucky.

[Dick Allen]

did you even bother to read my multiple long posts with detailed statistics showing you that pitching today is better than it was 10 years ago? If you did even an iota of research you'd see you're dead wrong about this.

If it is better, it is not 7000 strikeouts better.that is about approach, strikeouts don't have the same stigma they used to have, but it will come back.

 

BABIP is around the same as it has always been as well.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Kyyle23]

Belisario was almost a 2 WAR pitcher last year FYI. He got incredibly unlucky.

 

I don't care what you and DA are arguing about, but if WAR says Belisario was merely unlucky than its flaws are worse than I thought.

 

Belisario was incredibly terrible last season, not unlucky

[caulfield12]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/47432098/ant...ces-offensively

 

 

"It's a big difference," said Brewers third baseman Aramis Ramirez, a 16-year veteran. "I don't think it's a big deal now if you strike out 120, 130, 150 times a year."

 

"Striking out is not a bad thing sometimes. It is [bad] when you need a productive out. But it makes the pitcher log more pitches."

-- Giants manager

Bruce Bochy

 

There was a time when strikeouts were humiliating, to the point that the mere notion worked its way into other elements of our culture. If you asked a girl to the prom and she denied you, what happened? You "struck out," in the parlance of

your peers. Worse yet, in many states, habitual offenders became subjected to "three-strike laws," the slang of a sport directly impacting the particulars of imprisonment.

[caulfield12]

That's what Chris Beck has been doing for two years now.

 

Conserving his strength and keeping his pitch count down.

 

 

It is pretty telling that the manager of a 3-time World Series winner (populated with great arms during those runs) looks at a strikeout more from the standpoint of wearing out the starter than from the productive out side of things.

[Reddy]

If it is better, it is not 7000 strikeouts better.that is about approach, strikeouts don't have the same stigma they used to have, but it will come back.

 

BABIP is around the same as it has always been as well.

 

Sigh.

 

Strikeouts don't have the stigma, because it turns out they're not as bad as the uninformed players and coaches of yesteryear thought they were! Adam Dunn would not have BEEN Adam Dunn if he'd focused on cutting down the strikeouts. If he had, he probably wouldn't have walked or homered as much. So yes, that plays a role. Of course it does. But combine that with the best pitching the game has ever seen, and that'll account for the entire uptick in strikeouts.

 

Again, it's really all about statistics. Statistically, Adam Dunn is a much more valuable player than he would've been considered in the 80s. And that's a good thing. That's called progress.

[Dick Allen]

Sigh.

 

Strikeouts don't have the stigma, because it turns out they're not as bad as the uninformed players and coaches of yesteryear thought they were! Adam Dunn would not have BEEN Adam Dunn if he'd focused on cutting down the strikeouts. If he had, he probably wouldn't have walked or homered as much. So yes, that plays a role. Of course it does. But combine that with the best pitching the game has ever seen, and that'll account for the entire uptick in strikeouts.

 

Again, it's really all about statistics. Statistically, Adam Dunn is a much more valuable player than he would've been considered in the 80s. And that's a good thing. That's called progress.

"Their mentality is, it's an out," Orioles manager Buck Showalter says. "There's no such thing as a two-strike approach.

[Reddy]

I don't care what you and DA are arguing about, but if WAR says Belisario was merely unlucky than its flaws are worse than I thought.

 

Belisario was incredibly terrible last season, not unlucky

 

Sorry, it was a 1 WARP according to BP. He had a 3.57 FIP and a 9.1 VORP, making him our third most valuable pitcher last season. He had a .339 BABIP.

 

He was unlucky.

[Dick Allen]

Sorry, it was a 1 WARP according to BP. He had a 3.57 FIP and a 9.1 VORP, making him our third most valuable pitcher last season. He had a .339 BABIP.

 

He was unlucky.

When John Danks gives up 6 runs in an inning, I never see anyone mention how unlucky he was.

[Reddy]

When John Danks gives up 6 runs in an inning, I never see anyone mention how unlucky he was.

Because he, statistically, has been bad. Not just unlucky. They are two distinctly different things.

[Dick Allen]

Sigh.

 

Strikeouts don't have the stigma, because it turns out they're not as bad as the uninformed players and coaches of yesteryear thought they were! Adam Dunn would not have BEEN Adam Dunn if he'd focused on cutting down the strikeouts. If he had, he probably wouldn't have walked or homered as much. So yes, that plays a role. Of course it does. But combine that with the best pitching the game has ever seen, and that'll account for the entire uptick in strikeouts.

 

Again, it's really all about statistics. Statistically, Adam Dunn is a much more valuable player than he would've been considered in the 80s. And that's a good thing. That's called progress.

Adam Dunn had 2 seasons in his career where advanced stats said he was more valuable than The 2014 version of Alexei Ramirez, mwho was supposed to be falling apart 2 years ago.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

Because he, statistically, has been bad. Not just unlucky. They are two distinctly different things.

No. He is prone to unlucky innings.

[caulfield12]

Sorry, it was a 1 WARP according to BP. He had a 3.57 FIP and a 9.1 VORP, making him our third most valuable pitcher last season. He had a .339 BABIP.

 

He was unlucky.

 

 

That's where the "eye test" and studying game after game of video comes in...

 

Looking at positioning, how many of the "unlucky" hits are liners versus infield singles, etc.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that no matter how unlucky you supposedly are, eventually your manager has no choice but to pull the plug when your teammates lose confidence in you. I don't think we've ever seen a post-game press conference after the 3rd blown save in a week where the manager trotted out FIP numbers or VORP as a defense, because it sounds like an excuse or rationalization for not getting the job done, not bowing your necking/cinching it up and hunkering down (insert other Will To Win Hawkisms here). At least, it hasn't happened yet. Maybe in front offices...but not coming from the actual coaching staff.

Edited February 8, 2015 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Sorry, it was a 1 WARP according to BP. He had a 3.57 FIP and a 9.1 VORP, making him our third most valuable pitcher last season. He had a .339 BABIP.

 

He was unlucky.

 

Sorry, he was very bad. You can throw various stats at me all you want, the guy sucked.

[caulfield12]

Adam Dunn had 2 seasons in his career where advanced stats said he was more valuable than The 2014 version of Alexei Ramirez, mwho was supposed to be falling apart 2 years ago.

 

 

I'll believe it when I see Alex Gordon and Jason Heyward get $100+ million free agent contracts coming off merely "decent" (775ish OPS) offensive years.

 

It's one thing to overweight defense...or exploit seeming oversights (first it was OBP, then outfield defense....now it's bullpen construction and shifts). It's quite another to build an organizational philosophy around it.

 

At any rate, we shall see.

Edited February 8, 2015 by caulfield12

[Whisox05]

So pretty much a good regular season pitcher

James Shields, career in playoffs:

 

11 games & starts

59.1 IP (about 5.1 IP per start)

 

5.46 ERA, 1.53 WHIP

His teams were lucky to go 5-6.

 

https://twitter.com/Ecnerwal23/status/564560419600486400

Edited February 8, 2015 by WhiteSoxLifer

[Reddy]

I'll believe it when I see Alex Gordon and Jason Heyward get $100+ million free agent contracts coming off merely "decent" (775ish OPS) offensive years.

 

It's one thing to overweight defense...or exploit seeming oversights (first it was OBP, then outfield defense....now it's bullpen construction and shifts). It's quite another to build an organizational philosophy around it.

 

At any rate, we shall see.

.775 OPS is significantly above average these days. .700 is AVERAGE major league player. Add defense into the mix and those are two very valuable guys.

[Dick Allen]

I'll believe it when I see Alex Gordon and Jason Heyward get $100+ million free agent contracts coming off merely "decent" (775ish OPS) offensive years.

 

It's one thing to overweight defense...or exploit seeming oversights (first it was OBP, then outfield defense....now it's bullpen construction and shifts). It's quite another to build an organizational philosophy around it.

 

At any rate, we shall see.

Heyward is a good player but can't hit lefties, and while his defense is elite, you have to womder how long it will remain elite, and if paying that kind of money for elite defense in RF makes a lot of sense.

[Reddy]

Sorry, he was very bad. You can throw various stats at me all you want, the guy sucked.

 

Yep. He did. But it's because he was unlucky, not because he's a bad pitcher. He'll probably be much better this year.

[Reddy]

That's where the "eye test" and studying game after game of video comes in...

 

Looking at positioning, how many of the "unlucky" hits are liners versus infield singles, etc.

 

 

The fact of the matter is that no matter how unlucky you supposedly are, eventually your manager has no choice but to pull the plug when your teammates lose confidence in you. I don't think we've ever seen a post-game press conference after the 3rd blown save in a week where the manager trotted out FIP numbers or VORP as a defense, because it sounds like an excuse or rationalization for not getting the job done, not bowing your necking/cinching it up and hunkering down (insert other Will To Win Hawkisms here). At least, it hasn't happened yet. Maybe in front offices...but not coming from the actual coaching staff.

 

All of the above will eventually happen. It takes time for the game to adjust. The eye test has been proven to mean nothing.

[lvjeremylv]

Sorry, it was a 1 WARP according to BP. He had a 3.57 FIP and a 9.1 VORP, making him our third most valuable pitcher last season. He had a .339 BABIP.

 

He was unlucky.

The guy got SHELLED almost every time I suffered through watching him try to pitch. He really, really, really sucked badly, and if you're going to bring in some geek new age "stats" to try to convince anyone that he was "unlucky" instead of downright F'ing awful, you're wasting your time. He sucked. So bad. And there's no arguing it.

 

3rd most valuable pitcher LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!