Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't because Bud Selig didn't care that his players were roided up and there was no drug testing. Burden of proof is on the claimant. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Yup. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck... it might be a goose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:23 PM) Prove me wrong. Oh wait, you can't because Bud Selig didn't care that his players were roided up and there was no drug testing. Prove Frank Thomas didn't use steroids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyyle23 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:22 PM) No we don't. There's no proof he used, though there are stories from ex-players. But he never failed any test or was caught doing anything illegal. Ok, when you start providing proof to the contrary I guess we will all say that Reddy is correct. I am just gonna sit here and say its pretty weird that Brady Anderson had an insane statistical year in the same season that McGwire and Sosa started breaking baseballs. Why he discontinued using them? I have no idea, maybe he had a come to jesus moment where he worried about the aftereffects and stopped using. Some people have a guilty conscience about these things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:26 PM) Ok, when you start providing proof to the contrary I guess we will all say that Reddy is correct. I am just gonna sit here and say its pretty weird that Brady Anderson had an insane statistical year in the same season that McGwire and Sosa started breaking baseballs. Why he discontinued using them? I have no idea, maybe he had a come to jesus moment where he worried about the aftereffects and stopped using. Some people have a guilty conscience about these things The problem is that steroids don't work that way. They don't just INSTANTLY make you a great player for the ONE season in which you take them. If they did, why on earth are the vast majority of busted steroid users fringe minor leaguers!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:25 PM) Prove Frank Thomas didn't use steroids. You can't unfortunately 100% clear him, he is a product of the era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:27 PM) The problem is that steroids don't work that way. They don't just INSTANTLY make you a great player for the ONE season in which you take them. If they did, why on earth are the vast majority of busted steroid users fringe minor leaguers!? Without steroids, those fringe minor leaguers may have never reached the level they did. Steroids can turn a borderline A baller into a AA or AAA player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:28 PM) Without steroids, those fringe minor leaguers may have never reached the level they did. Steroids can turn a borderline A baller into a AA or AAA player. So you mean the player has to already be very talented for steroids to make him a superstar? You mean they didn't make a 62nd round draft pick into the best hitting catcher of all time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) I know. That's my point. Why didn't that happen with Piazza? Or rather, why didn't Anderson hit like Piazza if steroids really are so incredibly powerful? Sammy Sosa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:32 PM) Sammy Sosa. Sosa was never bad. He was young his first few years in the league. He started hitting well at the age when players usually break out. He was already very talented and the steroids put him over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:30 PM) So you mean the player has to already be very talented for steroids to make him a superstar? You mean they didn't make a 62nd round draft pick into the best hitting catcher of all time? Yup, I've always said that. There's a thin line between an everyday major leaguer and a superstar. Steroids can make that difference. Sure they did, otherwise he would have been a 62nd round draft pick that made it to the majors, but never would have been even considered for the HOF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:35 PM) Yup, I've always said that. There's a thin line between an everyday major leaguer and a superstar. Steroids can make that difference. Sure they did, otherwise he would have been a 62nd round draft pick that made it to the majors, but never would have been even considered for the HOF. .300 points of OPS is a thin line? And your second statement is completely subjective and meaningless. No player has ever actually outed Piazza ON THE RECORD - and that means something. The case against Piazza is weak at best. It would be better if we talk Sosa as our example player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 One other thing to note is that steroids will not impact everyone the same way, and hell, different steroids will impact different people in different ways. Palmeiro liked winstrol because it didn't make his whole body explode, Bonds didn't care so he went with the THG that turned him into a chemical monster. Other guys who did those might have had different effects. A shorter boost could have helped with an injury recovery one time but led to joint degredation a couple years later. Someone might have grown a muscle too rapidly and then torn that muscle, ending their career. This isn't a double-blind study where "steroid a = more strong guy = hall of famer" . It's Steroid concoction 1 + person's own chemistry + person's own skills + how the "specialist" manages the juicing = the final player result. Some could work very well, others could have worked very poorly even on the exact same regimen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:40 PM) One other thing to note is that steroids will not impact everyone the same way, and hell, different steroids will impact different people in different ways. Palmeiro liked winstrol because it didn't make his whole body explode, Bonds didn't care so he went with the THG that turned him into a chemical monster. Other guys who did those might have had different effects. A shorter boost could have helped with an injury recovery one time but led to joint degredation a couple years later. Someone might have grown a muscle too rapidly and then torn that muscle, ending their career. This isn't a double-blind study where "steroid a = more strong guy = hall of famer" . It's Steroid concoction 1 + person's own chemistry + person's own skills + how the "specialist" manages the juicing = the final player result. Some could work very well, others could have worked very poorly even on the exact same regimen. absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:35 PM) Sosa was never bad. He was young his first few years in the league. He started hitting well at the age when players usually break out. He was already very talented and the steroids put him over the top. He added .077 points on his batting average and .137 to his OPS between from his age 28 season to his age 32 season. Once again, facts don't line up with your claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:43 PM) He added .077 points on his batting average and .137 to his OPS between from his age 28 season to his age 32 season. Once again, facts don't line up with your claims. And the three years before, his OPS was .888, .840, and .884 with 25, 36, and 40 homers respectively Way to cherry pick useless stats. He was already a star before he exploded in '98. The only time he was ever "bad" was when he was a 20-22 year old in the major leagues, which is NORMAL. Edited February 9, 2015 by Reddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:46 PM) And the three years before, his OPS was .888, .840, and .884 with 25, 36, and 40 homers respectively Way to cherry pick useless stats. He was already a star before he exploded in '98 Barry Bonds was a star before he started juicing, not Sammy. Bonds hit .370 as a 37 year old. As a 39 year old, put up a 1.400 OPS. Sorry, even when he won an MVP or 2 when he was skinny, he was nowhere near that, and if he played it straight, no way he is near .370 his age 37 season. There are guys who juiced who couldn't hit, but to say they can't take a pretty average hitter and make them great is just wrong. Sammy Sosa's batting average as a 32 year old was 28 points higher than his on base pct. as a 28 year old. I think being juiced up helps a lot of players' confidence which is a big factor in performing. Edited February 9, 2015 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:49 PM) Barry Bonds was a star before he started juicing, not Sammy. Bonds hit .370 as a 37 year old. As a 39 year old, put up a 1.400 OPS. Sorry, even when he won an MVP or 2 when he was skinny, he was nowhere near that, and if he played it straight, no way he is near .370 his age 37 season. I'm not even sure what you think you're arguing for or against, to be honest. Are you trying to say that Sammy was bad before roids? Or... what? What's your point regarding age? C'mon man, make some salient points! Edited February 9, 2015 by Reddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) I'm not even sure what you think you're arguing for or against, to be honest. As a 28 year old Sammy put up a .779 OPS .251 with a .300 OBP which makes him an average hitter with power As a 32 year old Sammy put up a 1.174 OPS .328 with a .437 OBP, Great hitter. Explain. Edited February 9, 2015 by Dick Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:57 PM) As a 28 year old Sammy put up a .779 OPS .251 with a .300 OBP which makes him an average hitter with power As a 32 year old Sammy put up a 1.174 OPS .328 with a .437 OBP, Great hitter. Explain. Steroids.... What is your point? I feel like you think you're being really smart right now, but cherry picking his age 28 season (a down year) as opposed to his age 27, 26, or 25 season is meaningless in evaluating a players trends over a career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 Here's a really simple way of explaining Sosa. Prior to '98, he'd shown himself to be about a 125 OPS+ player, where 100 is average. He was significantly above average. For comparison, Justin Upton has a career 121 OPS+ So yes, he was a "star" prior to steroids. Then those steroids gave him a huge spike, to a peak of a 203 OPS+ in his age 32 season. Shortly thereafter his body breaks down, and he's out of baseball by 36. But be clear. He was a star before his steroid explosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:03 PM) Steroids.... What is your point? I feel like you think you're being really smart right now, but cherry picking his age 28 season (a down year) as opposed to his age 27, 26, or 25 season is meaningless in evaluating a players trends over a career. I am not trying to be really smart, just showing the guy who thinks he is really smart making all theses claims like eye tests tell you nothing, steroids won't make you a great hitter, that again, he is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:10 PM) I am not trying to be really smart, just showing the guy who thinks he is really smart making all theses claims like eye tests tell you nothing, steroids won't make you a great hitter, that again, he is wrong. see above, bud. I've said from the beginning, that they don't make a BAD hitter a superstar. They CAN make a GOOD player a superstar. Reading comprehension for the win. ETA: PWND by stats. Edited February 9, 2015 by Reddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:11 PM) see above, bud. I've said from the beginning, that they don't make a BAD hitter a superstar. They CAN make a GOOD player a superstar. Reading comprehension for the win. Prove it. You're in denial that Piazza ever juiced. You make obnoxious claims and tell everyone else to prove you wrong. Why don't you just prove yourself right. Can you link a medical article that says steroids won't make a bad hitter a superstar? Facts say they added 400 points to Sammy Sosa's OPS. If they have that effect on a .600 OPS guy, they just made a bad hitter a superstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:09 PM) Here's a really simple way of explaining Sosa. Prior to '98, he'd shown himself to be about a 125 OPS+ player, where 100 is average. He was significantly above average. For comparison, Justin Upton has a career 121 OPS+ So yes, he was a "star" prior to steroids. Then those steroids gave him a huge spike, to a peak of a 203 OPS+ in his age 32 season. Shortly thereafter his body breaks down, and he's out of baseball by 36. But be clear. He was a star before his steroid explosion. DA. Please read my post just a couple posts up. I quoted it here to make it easier on you. I already laid out all the proof I need re: Sosa. You're just literally covering your eyes and spurting nonsense to distract yourself from it. Edited February 9, 2015 by Reddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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