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James Shields


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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:17 PM)
Prove it. You're in denial that Piazza ever juiced. You make obnoxious claims and tell everyone else to prove you wrong.

 

Why don't you just prove yourself right. Can you link a medical article that says steroids won't make a bad hitter a superstar?

 

Facts say they added 400 points to Sammy Sosa's OPS. If they have that effect on a .600 OPS guy, they just made a bad hitter a superstar.

Weird that Sammy Sosa was a .850 OPS guy before steroids.

 

Give me an example of a .600 OPS player who jumped to 1.000 and maintained it.

 

Honestly your posts are making me laugh out loud at their sheer ridiculousness. :lol:

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:19 PM)
DA. Please read my post just a couple posts up. I quoted it here to make it easier on you. I already laid out all the proof I need re: Sosa. You're just literally covering your eyes and spurting nonsense to distract yourself from it.

No proof. Yesterday your "proof" that eye tests give you nothing was an article rating the top players and the difference between where the guys on Baseball Tonight ranked them and where WAR ranked them. In the article you used as "proof" the author stated they didn't know which one was more correct. LOL.

 

 

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:23 PM)
No proof. Yesterday your "proof" that eye tests give you nothing was an article rating the top players and the difference between where the guys on Baseball Tonight ranked them and where WAR ranked them. In the article you used as "proof" the author stated they didn't know which one was more correct. LOL.

Yesterday has no bearing on the fact that I just listed statistics, which are facts, and which are not opinions. And those facts showed that Sammy Sosa was a star-caliber player before using steroids, which is the discussion we're currently having, right?

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:25 PM)
Yesterday has no bearing on the fact that I just listed statistics, which are facts, and which are not opinions. And those facts showed that Sammy Sosa was a star-caliber player before using steroids, which is the discussion we're currently having, right?

No, he wasn't a star calibur player. And where is your proof he wasn't juicing during those seasons you claim he was star calibur? You yourself said it just doesn't happen over one season, right?

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:27 PM)
No, he wasn't a star calibur player. And where is your proof he wasn't juicing during those seasons you claim he was star calibur? You yourself said it just doesn't happen over one season, right?

 

He had a comparable OPS+ to Justin Upton.

 

He was an MVP candidate.

 

That's star CALIBER.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:31 PM)
He was on the juice. When he was a White Sox and his first year with the Cubs, he was playing straight, and awful.

He was 20 years old. Almost every 20 year old in the major leagues is awful.

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Dr. Charles E. Yesalis has studied the non-medical use of anabolic-androgenic steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs for over thirty years. A professor at The Pennsylvania State University, he has served as a consultant to the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Food and Drug Administration, the NFL Players Association, the U.S. Olympic Committee, and the N.C.A.A., and has testified before Congress on three occasions. He is the author of The Steroids Game, about steroid use by adolescents, and he is the editor or co-editor of two medical reference texts on performance-enhancing substances in sports.

 

Q: What makes anabolic steroids stand out?

 

A: We do have a lot of data that they increase strength, that they increase muscle mass, though to my knowledge there's never been a study that shows they help you catch a baseball or hit a baseball better unless you already have that hand-eye coordination... All else being equal, Bambi and Godzilla have the hand-eye coordination of a major league baseball player, who's going to hit the ball the farthest? If you have the pitches and control of a major league pitcher already, but you add 20 pounds of muscle, that would hurt you how? "Gosh darn my fastball would be faster. Oh jeez that's terrible."

 

Q: And is it that the substance itself adds muscle mass, or that it helps in recovery, or that it helps being able to work out for longer periods...?

 

A: ...All of the above. It helps you recover from one workout to another, therefore you can work out harder and recover. It has been demonstrated to build muscle mass and build strength.

 

There's a base line. You already have to have the skills. Anabolic steroids just make you stronger and recover better.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:31 PM)
He was on the juice. When he was a White Sox and his first year with the Cubs, he was playing straight, and awful.

So are you saying he was a bad player while juicing? Are you suggesting that steroids don't just inherently make you good?? Why was Sammy EVER bad, if, as you say, he was juicing his whole career!?

 

:wub: the contradictions. :D

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:35 PM)
There's a base line. You already have to have the skills. Anabolic steroids just make you stronger and recover better.

These are professional baseball players. They all have that hand/eye coordination skillset. Are you also suggesting Sammy's statistical drop off the face of the earth had everything to do with suddenly aging , and that steroid testing and penalties beginning exactly at that time just had to be coincidence?

 

Making a player vastly stronger will make them a better hitter anyway.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:38 PM)
These are professional baseball players. They all have that hand/eye coordination skillset. Are you also suggesting Sammy's statistical drop off the face of the earth had everything to do with suddenly aging , and that steroid testing and penalties beginning exactly at that time just had to be coincidence?

The steroids destroyed his body. His muscles probable grew to fast for his joints and ligaments to keep up. That happens all the time. And please refer back to Balta's post about roids affecting different players differently.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:38 PM)
These are professional baseball players. They all have that hand/eye coordination skillset. Are you also suggesting Sammy's statistical drop off the face of the earth had everything to do with suddenly aging , and that steroid testing and penalties beginning exactly at that time just had to be coincidence?

 

Making a player vastly stronger will make them a better hitter anyway.

 

False. It will make the ball go faster and farther WHEN they hit it. It doesn't make them a better all-around hitter. Anabolic steroids do not improve hand-eye coordination, vision, alertness, anything else. There are drugs out there than can do those things, but anabolic steroids (the things that made Bonds and Sosa's muscles balloon) do not IIRC

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 01:35 PM)
There's a base line. You already have to have the skills. Anabolic steroids just make you stronger and recover better.

Not so.

 

It breaks down like this: Steroids increase strength, which increases bat speed, which allows hitters a split second longer to recognize the pitch (users claim an increase in visual focus as well) AND aim the barrel of the bat correctly - meaning more contact, and more-barreled contact, and contact at a higher bat speed, sending the ball further.

 

An honest user would tell you this. The split-second makes a huge difference.

Edited by Stan Bahnsen
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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:40 PM)
The steroids destroyed his body. His muscles probable grew to fast for his joints and ligaments to keep up. That happens all the time. And please refer back to Balta's post about roids affecting different players differently.

Barry Bonds could have starred until he was probably 50. He was bigger than Sammy.

 

If he never juiced, Sammy Sosa would not be considered a star player today.

 

And if they have different effects, how can you say they can't make a bad player a great one?

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QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 02:42 PM)
False. It will make the ball go faster and farther WHEN they hit it. It doesn't make them a better all-around hitter. Anabolic steroids do not improve hand-eye coordination, vision, alertness, anything else. There are drugs out there than can do those things, but anabolic steroids (the things that made Bonds and Sosa's muscles balloon) do not IIRC

Unless I am missing something here, if you hit the ball harder, you generally get more hits which makes you a better hitter.

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QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:43 PM)
Not so.

 

It breaks down like this: Steroids increase strength, which increases bat speed, which allows hitters a split second longer to recognize the pitch AND aim the barrel of the bat correctly - meaning more contact, and more-barreled contact, and contact at a higher bat speed, sending the ball further.

 

An honest user would tell you this. The split-second makes a huge difference.

awesome point. hadn't considered that. (not sarcasm again!)

 

that helps explain the massive BA jumps for guys like Sosa.

 

But again, they don't help enough to make bad players good. I've yet to see an example where that's the case. Our own Melkster is a great example. Everyone thought he was "bad", started hitting well, turned out he was on roids, but ever since then - presumably off roids - he's still a good hitter. Turns out he would've probably been a good hitter anyway, even without the roids - the timing was just such that the roids coincided with the typical breakout age so it confused the picture.

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:44 PM)
Barry Bonds could have starred until he was probably 50. He was bigger than Sammy.

 

If he never juiced, Sammy Sosa would not be considered a star player today.

 

And if they have different effects, how can you say they can't make a bad player a great one?

 

1) Bonds' knees fell apart.

 

2) You don't know that. Pure conjecture.

 

3) Because statistically that has never happened yet, as far as I'm aware.

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QUOTE (chw42 @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 03:49 PM)
I thought this was a thread about James Shields?

 

Haha yeah... hasn't been for about 20 pages. Whoops.

 

It's been about advanced stats, and steroids, and... well... basically every controversial baseball topic you can possibly think of. Haha

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QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 9, 2015 -> 04:00 PM)
He didn't get suspended 50 games for stem cell therapy.

 

Truth. Testosterone.

 

You're still drawing false equivalencies. What happens for one player means nothing in regard to another. What was your point with Colon? That he was "bad" before roids made him "good" again?

 

How do you explain his performance after coming back from his suspension when he's no longer roiding? The T and stem cells helped him recover to the point where he could pitch up to his historical norms again. They didn't make him a better pitcher, they helped him recover so that he could pitch the way he had always been able to.

 

 

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K, I'm done. Arguing with you is painful, but I can't help myself. I just need to remember that in 2015, facts don't mean anything anymore to a majority of Americans.

 

Notice that when I'm wrong, I usually admit it. Wish others (you) could do the same.

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