Charles Barkley declares war with SABR nerds/quants

[Eminor3rd]

Heard Barkley's rant last night . Wondered if there would be something on here but I fail to see how it stays in PHT . Are all sabremetric discussions now required reading ? I mean, I try ,I really do, to understand some of the more frequently used new terms to stay abreast of things. Can't say I enjoy reading sooooooooo much about it though. I enjoy my sports which mostly consists of watching and drawing my own conclusions on players.

 

Around here or any forum where younger people gather I'm thankful for the broadening of my horizons. However, I can definitely say it hasn't enhanced my enjoyment level of sports , probably has even lowered it a little bit to be honest. My math education stopped at Algebra 2 so everytime someone starts in with coeffeicients and variables yada yada yada, I get bored to tears. Is this math class or the place to discuss White Sox baseball.

 

I see people ask what is FIP or something else. I'm like are you kidding me ? You're on a computer ! You have the world at your fingertips ! Stick it in a search engine and you can find all the stuff on it your little heart ever desired.

 

You get rants like Hawk and Barkley and now me I guess because you guys never give it a rest . We have a permanently pinned section on it for whatever reason .All the offseason acquisitions should be pinned till at least opening day because thats what interests Sox fans who might wander into this place infrequently. What do they see pinned? FAQ's about advanced physics. We rant because we sucked at math and we feel dumb again, but even sucking it was still simple to understand ERA and fielding percentage and batting average. Now I need a degree from MIT.

 

The reason people "don't give it a rest" is because it's an important part of modern baseball. It drives the decisions the front offices make. Why is that not interesting?

 

Also, I don't understand why people treat this s*** like it's theoretical calculus or something. 95% of this stuff is just a simple weighted averages. It's multiplication. If you got Algebra 2, you get averaging numbers and multiplication.

 

What some of you Sabes people must realize is a lot of us, including Barkley, do not give a s*** about advanced stats. I mean some of it is interesting, but I think what Charles is saying is a ballplayer knows a good ballplayer when he sees one.

 

Believe me, I don't need advanced stats to tell me Rios or Dunn are good players. I happen to SEE them play and can tell you they are not. I'm not a big WAR guy obviously.

When I see Adam Dunn whiff as much as he did as a Sox, and the fact he as our big gun never sniffed a postseason, tells me a lot. I don't need advanced stats telling me he was good or some such.

 

Again, if you watch your favorite team all year, you know who is good and who is bad.

That's my take. The Sabes people should be more tolerant of us Sabes haters or Sabes dislikers.

 

Oh, we understand that you don't give a s***.

 

The whole thing about having to be a good ballplayer to know a good ballplayer is elitist bulls***. If that's the case, greg, than by your own logic, you have no idea what you're talking about. All of us stupid fans should just sit in a bar and consume the program without a thought in our heads. Because we'll never "get it" anyway.

 

The Sabes people should be more tolerant of us Sabes haters or Sabes dislikers.

 

This is an ironic thing to say. Do you know why it doesn't seem like "Sabes haters" are tolerated? Because of moron rants like Barkley's "EVERYONE WHO DOES ADVANCED STATS IS JUST MAD CUZ THEY DIDN'T GET GIRLS IN HIGH SCHOOL," and the constant implication that being interested in advanced statistics is "ruining the integrity of the game" and that people who like sabermetrics "don't even watch the game."

 

My suggestion to "sabes haters" is this: Stop slinging insults like a toddler and see if people stop treating you like a toddler.

 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Eminor I hope you understand my rant was half truthful and more comedically intented in nature. Writing is more my thing than math so once in a while I write things just to get it off my chest with some humor and hopefully it's understood I meant no slights to anyone. But I still don't understand why it takes precedent over offseason acquisitions in the pinned area.

 

I assume Soxtalk wants to grow as a community so even the casual fan can find things that appeal to them by dropping in here and lurking before eventually feeling comfortable enough to make posts. I realize threads "run their course " and the discussions of acquistions is old news at this point but the players and a chance at a successful season and the excitement it has generated are usually the primary interest of fans in general . I understand what is pinned is not my decision to make . It's just my feeling that having the best Sox topics pinned or on the front page is the best way to keep people who show up here interested in coming back rather then having them look at page after page of what's been discussed over the past few months rather than the first thing they see being FAQ about advanced stats.

Edited February 12, 2015 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[Reddy]

Eminor I hope you understand my rant was half truthful and more comedically intented in nature. Writing is more my thing than math so once in a while I write things just to get it off my chest with some humor and hopefully it's understood I meant no slights to anyone. But I still don't understand why it takes precedent over offseason acquisitions in the pinned area.

 

I assume Soxtalk wants to grow as a community so even the casual fan can find things that appeal to them by dropping in here and lurking before eventually feeling comfortable enough to make posts. I realize threads "run their course " and the discussions of acquistions is old news at this point but the players and a chance at a successful season and the excitement it has generated are usually the primary interest of fans in general . I understand what is pinned is not my decision to make . It's just my feeling that having the best Sox topics pinned or on the front page is the best way to keep people who show up here interested in coming back rather then having them look at page after page of what's been discussed over the past few months rather than the first thing they see being FAQ about avanced stats.

 

It ends up becoming an argument of: Would you rather be the most popular, or the best?

 

Support for advanced stats puts us in the latter category (although we probably also happen to be in the first as well, among White Sox fan sites)

[Eminor3rd]

Eminor I hope you understand my rant was half truthful and more comedically intented in nature. Writing is more my thing than math so once in a while I write things just to get it off my chest with some humor and hopefully it's understood I meant no slights to anyone. But I still don't understand why it takes precedent over offseason acquisitions in the pinned area.

 

I assume Soxtalk wants to grow as a community so even the casual fan can find things that appeal to them by dropping in here and lurking before eventually feeling comfortable enough to make posts. I realize threads "run their course " and the discussions of acquistions is old news at this point but the players and a chance at a successful season and the excitement it has generated are usually the primary interest of fans in general . I understand what is pinned is not my decision to make . It's just my feeling that having the best Sox topics pinned or on the front page is the best way to keep people who show up here interested in coming back rather then having them look at page after page of what's been discussed over the past few months rather than the first thing they see being FAQ about avanced stats.

 

Yeah I just re-read my post and see that it reads like I was punching walls while writing it. I have a problem with coming off way angrier than I want to. I really am trying to work on that even though I'm failing. Sorry.

 

To be clear: any rage that did exist in my last post is directed toward Charles Barkley, lol. The only thing directed toward you or greg is some mild exasperation

 

I actually think what you said about thread pinning makes sense -- I can see a good argument hat all acquisitions should be up there until at least the start of the season.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

It ends up becoming an argument of: Would you rather be the most popular, or the best?

 

Support for advanced stats puts us in the latter category (although we probably also happen to be in the first as well, among White Sox fan sites)

Your opinion is just as valid as mine . Maybe I am wrong in assuming players and contending interests fans more than advanced stats. Advanced stats do not appeal to everyone whereas I'm pretty sure all that come here like to read and talk about the players and our chances of winning. I don't know a damn thing about running a website but I think people coming back again and again matters more if Jason gets any revenue from this venture. But it's his website and if he thinks advanced stats bring more than just diehards here then so be it.

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Yeah I just re-read my post and see that it reads like I was punching walls while writing it. I have a problem with coming off way angrier than I want to. I really am trying to work on that even though I'm failing. Sorry.

 

To be clear: any rage that did exist in my last post is directed toward Charles Barkley, lol. The only thing directed toward you or greg is some mild exasperation

 

I actually think what you said about thread pinning makes sense -- I can see a good argument hat all acquisitions should be up there until at least the start of the season.

I never take offense at your replies to me because I know what I write is USUALLY well thought out and I know the subjects that I am less informed about I cannot have very strong convictions about them .

[Reddy]

Your opinion is just as valid as mine . Maybe I am wrong in assuming players and contending interests fans more than advanced stats. Advanced stats do not appeal to everyone whereas I'm pretty sure all that come here like to read and talk about the players and our chances of winning. I don't know a damn thing about running a website but I think people coming back again and again matters more if Jason gets any revenue from this venture. But it's his website and if he thinks advanced stats bring more than just diehards here then so be it.

Yep, of course your opinion is just as valid. I just feel that even if you're less popular because you're ahead of the curve, that ends up being better in the long run, by making you even more popular when everyone catches up. "We were there first" kind of a thing. The casual fan WILL catch up. 10 years ago, no one knew what OPS was. Now it's being shown on broadcasts, so the average fan is aware of what it means. It's no different with WAR and the other advanced stats. Eventually they'll make their way into the lexicon if they prove to be good stats - which they have.

[greg775]

This is my favorite SoxTalk soliloquy of the year so far.

 

Anytime greg is mentioned as somebody's "favorite" of the year means it is a good day for me.

[Reddy]

Anytime greg is mentioned as somebody's "favorite" of the year means it is a good day for me.

Any time greg talks in the third person is a good day for Soxtalk.

[Jerksticks]

Any time the greg talks in the third person is a good day for Soxtalk.

 

Fixed

[Texsox]

Part of the acceptance among fans is someone who has made a career of watching baseball players over 40 years is dismissed as not knowing anything and a 21 year old kid with a spreadsheet can manage any team at any time (just ask them). Just plug in the key factors and use the decision that pops up.

 

Both sides could learn a lot from each other. The fact that it seems you have to chose sides is the craziest part of that.

[caulfield12]

Part of the acceptance among fans is someone who has made a career of watching baseball players over 40 years is dismissed as not knowing anything and a 21 year old kid with a spreadsheet can manage any team at any time (just ask them). Just plug in the key factors and use the decision that pops up.

 

Both sides could learn a lot from each other. The fact that it seems you have to chose sides is the craziest part of that.

 

 

Plus, there's the "elitism" vs. "populism" side of it when you consider a lot of the new breed of GM's are coming from schools like Harvard, Yale, MIT, Northwestern/Kellogg, etc.

 

The new Dodgers' GM (MIT), Jon Daniels (Cornell), Epstein (Yale), Mark Shapiro (Princeton), Matt Silverman (TB-Harvard), DePodesta (Harvard), Rick Hahn (Northwestern/Harvard Law), Michael Hill (Marlins-Harvard), Jeff Bridich (Rockies/Harvard), AJ Preller (Padres/Cornell), Ben Cherington (Amherst), Chris Antonetti (Georgetown), Jeff Luhnow (Northwestern/Penn), etc.

 

 

 

Sandy Alderson, the former General Manager of the Oakland A’s as well as the San Diego Padres (and the current GM of the New York Mets), pioneered using data driven analytics in Major League Baseball. He’s just a modest guy who is okay with others getting credit for his unconventional thinking that challenged the status quo but is now widely accepted within baseball circles. Indeed Sandy Alderson is as much behind Moneyball as Billy Beane and Billy Beane himself would certainly agree with this.

 

So we’d like to salute Sandy Alderson, the Ivy League graduate (Dartmouth/Harvard Law) and former United States Marine (who served in Vietnam), for changing the business of baseball, for inspiring a movie about his unconventional thinking, and for letting others take all the credit.

 

http://theivycoach.com/the-ivy-coach-blog/...e-and-baseball/

Edited February 13, 2015 by caulfield12

[Texsox]

That is also an interesting trend. It will be interesting if over time the Ivy league and the more academic elite schools have greater success on the field.

[LittleHurt05]

That is also an interesting trend. It will be interesting if over time the Ivy league and the more academic elite schools have greater success on the field.

 

I don't see how it would have any effect on their on field success. First of all, their lack of scholarships and tough academic standards will limit their ability to recruit top talent. Also, no high school star player is gonna say, "I want to play at the same school that Andrew Friedman studied at!".

 

Plus, it is much tougher to scout and gain info about high school kids, so any advantages they gain in scouting are limited within their recruiting.

[Texsox]

You don't think it would give them an edge in analyzing recruits and prospects? Remember this should allow the teams to find players that other teams are overlooking.

 

But I agree there are certain disadvantages that those schools have in recruiting.

[LittleHurt05]

You don't think it would give them an edge in analyzing recruits and prospects? Remember this should allow the teams to find players that other teams are overlooking.

 

But I agree there are certain disadvantages that those schools have in recruiting.

 

With high school players it's much tougher, as there is very little statistical information available, and many more variables when scouting.

 

The other thing is that none of these baseball "geniuses" are gonna be at these Ivy League schools. Why would they recruit at Harvard if they can go to a major league ball club. Even grad students currently enrolled would need some experience in the game before really being able to prosper.

[witesoxfan]

I FINALLY get the title.

 

"Charles Barkley declares WAR with SABR studs"

 

because WAR

[southsider2k5]

I FINALLY get the title.

 

"Charles Barkley declares WAR with SABR studs"

 

because WAR

 

What is it good for?

[caulfield12]

Interestingly, Friedman, fwiw, "only" went to Tulane.

[LDF]

I FINALLY get the title.

 

"Charles Barkley declares WAR with SABR studs"

 

because WAR

 

not only Sir Charles but Jeff Samardzija not a big fan of analytics as well.

 

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/whi...ics-342924.html

[Eminor3rd]

not only Sir Charles but Jeff Samardzija not a big fan of analytics as well.

 

http://www.prosportsdaily.com/articles/whi...ics-342924.html

 

That's not what I got out of the article at all. He was asked if Don Cooper is out of touch because he isn't into sabermetrics (which is a pretty loaded question), and he said:

 

“Sabermetrics, nyeh. Sounds like a lot of hot air,’’ Samardzija said, smiling. “I think there are definitely positive aspects to it. I think there is some information you can take from it that’s important. But ultimately from a player’s point of view, you want a coach that can relate to you. Can help you with adjustments mid-game.

 

“I think preparation with numbers and stats and all that’s great, but when the bullets are flying, you need a guy that knows your personality, can relate to you and get you to change or fix what’s going wrong. If you don’t respect the guy that’s telling you that information, you’re not going to listen to him.’’

 

Sounds like he's just defending Don Cooper, and echoing what many believe about coaches, which is that managing personalities is their most important job.

[witesoxfan]

If I were running a team, I'd want my coaches to be aware of the value of statistics, but you're not going to say "hey Jeff, your FIP is a little high, maybe you should focus on striking guys out so we can lower your FIP, which will bring out your true talent."

[caulfield12]

That Samardzija article called back to mind the interaction of a "stat geek" and Hosmer/Moustakas.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/learning-the-...-the-clubhouse/

 

 

There's a steep learning curve for the "sabes" (I love that Greg-ism) people to go through when interacting with professional athletes using their statistics-driven language. Athletes can sniff out a "poser" a million miles away, and they're often not as nice as someone like Mark Teahen or Jim Thome would be about it. You have to build a relationship and get respect from an athlete first..or at least give them some pertinent statistical information which helps them improve their games (rather than criticizing it).

Edited February 24, 2015 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

That Samardzija article called back to mind the interaction of a "stat geek" and Hosmer/Moustakas.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/learning-the-...-the-clubhouse/

 

 

There's a steep learning curve for the "sabes" (I love that Greg-ism) people to go through when interacting with professional athletes using their statistics-driven language. Athletes can sniff out a "poser" a million miles away, and they're often not as nice as someone like Mark Teahen or Jim Thome would be about it. You have to build a relationship and get respect from an athlete first..or at least give them some pertinent statistical information which helps them improve their games (rather than criticizing it).

 

Eno is a great guy. Met him at the Winter Meetings last year.

[caulfield12]

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/...pauga/70194756/

 

 

http://www.kpisports.net/rankings/kpibasketball/

Current rankings Iowa at 29...Indiana and Purdue in some trouble.

 

 

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12476837

 

Lunardi on secret formula for picking brackets.

 

Edited March 15, 2015 by caulfield12