Cafardo's manager ranking

[brett05]

What did Guillen do well from 2009 through 2011?

 

Quitting on the team at the end of 2011 when he already had left the Sox for the Marlins the last week of the season?

I'm not saying it was time for a change. They went with Ozzie and I was ok with that. If they went back to him it would improve the team immensely right now. And you know that.

[Kyyle23]

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/106374740/mi...lieving-in-team

 

 

The thing is, the Royals were challenged offensively (until the playoffs) to drive in runs with homers, everyone knows that.

 

Bunting/sacrificing made a lot of sense for that team, in that ballpark...because of the incredible track record the bullpen had with just 1-2 run leads...and how important it was for that team in the 2nd half to take the lead early, as they believed it meant a sure win, just like the 2005 White Sox believed as well, especially the first 2 1/2 months or so in 2005 when Pods and Iguchi were in synch.

 

As an organizational philosophy, it worked. You can't expect hitters like Escobar, Infante, Dyson and Aoki to pound out victories...so they basically played a different style with half of their line-up while still hoping for SOME power from Hosmer, Butler, Moustakas, Perez and Gordon.

 

Part of that philosophy was a belief in team playing and making every out count, as well as making contact. The White Sox could learn a thing or two, because ever since 2005/06, and 2008 when Quentin was on fire, their offensive attack has been pretty one-dimensional, all things considered.

 

Their pitching was fantastic, especially the relief, and it minimized Yosts bad managing.

[Kyyle23]

I'm not saying it was time for a change. They went with Ozzie and I was ok with that. If they went back to him it would improve the team immensely right now. And you know that.

 

No it wouldnt, how much did he improve the Marlins?

[lasttriptotulsa]

Stats do not make a player an icon.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually he wasn't. His antics was reaching new heights, but he was still doing a good job handling the managerial part (at least compared to Robin) and an even greater job controlling the media away from his players.

 

What more can a player do besides perform on the field? Robin performed at a near Hall of Fame level in his ten years with the Sox. He also helped lead them to one ALCS and another season in which they had as good of shot of anybody of winning the World Series if they didn't strike.

 

Ozzie and the media was an absolute circus. He repeatedly threw players and his GM under the bus, trashed departing players and gave inside info to his sons which was leaked to the media on numerous occasions. The guy was an absolute joke.

[LittleHurt05]

Stats do not make a player an icon.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually he wasn't. His antics was reaching new heights, but he was still doing a good job handling the managerial part (at least compared to Robin) and an even greater job controlling the media away from his players.

 

Well yeah, he was insulting sportswriters with anti-gay slurs, that's not a good thing.

[caulfield12]

Their pitching was fantastic, especially the relief, and it minimized Yosts bad managing.

 

 

Because everyone had defined roles...the only time he departed from that pattern from July on was bringing in Ventura as a reliever in an effort to shake things up and because they were all over Shields, he was hanging by a thread the entire game.

Edited February 16, 2015 by caulfield12

[Kyyle23]

Because everyone had defined roles...the only time he departed from that pattern from July on was bringing in Ventura as a reliever in an effort to shake things up and because they were all over Shields, he was hanging by a thread the entire game.

 

You are seriously bringing up one random instance in an entire season and expecting me to remember this?

[brett05]

No it wouldnt, how much did he improve the Marlins?

 

Not the same.

[brett05]

What more can a player do besides perform on the field? Robin performed at a near Hall of Fame level in his ten years with the Sox. He also helped lead them to one ALCS and another season in which they had as good of shot of anybody of winning the World Series if they didn't strike.

 

Ozzie and the media was an absolute circus. He repeatedly threw players and his GM under the bus, trashed departing players and gave inside info to his sons which was leaked to the media on numerous occasions. The guy was an absolute joke.

 

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/venturo01.shtml

 

I'm not sure I can even take you seriously anymore. I've just begun using my account and you've already identified yourself as a fan boy. Sure you don't want to follow a different team?

[Kyyle23]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/venturo01.shtml

 

I'm not sure I can even take you seriously anymore. I've just begun using my account and you've already identified yourself as a fan boy. Sure you don't want to follow a different team?

 

Yea, why dont you go ahead and relax a bit

 

Not the same.

 

and while you are relaxing, let me know why it isnt the same. The Marlins dropped a ton of dough on that team and had to dismantle it in 4 months because Ozzie didnt "immediately make it better"

[nickofypres]

I posted with Brett on a different forum. This is all your going to get out of him. If you prove him wrong, he'll just reply with "sigh".

[lasttriptotulsa]

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/venturo01.shtml

 

I'm not sure I can even take you seriously anymore. I've just begun using my account and you've already identified yourself as a fan boy. Sure you don't want to follow a different team?

 

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. You're the one defending a horrendous manager in Ozzie Guillen and I'm the fan boy?

 

Did you take a look at the link you posted? Because if you did I don't think you understand what you were looking at.

 

When I look at the page what I see is a guy who had averaged 23 HRs, 96 RBIs, and 5.1 fWAR per 162 with the Sox and had a slash of .274/.365/.440/.805. He also won 5 Gold Gloves with the Sox. A multi Gold Glove winning third basemen that puts up those kind offensive is a near Hall of Fame. Me saying that is not being a fan boy, it's just me knowing what the hell I'm talking about.

 

FYI, career fWAR/162 games (Robin vs the 5 most recent HOF electees and Jeter)

 

Ron Santo - 5.12

Frank Thomas - 5.05

Barry Larkin - 5.02

Robin Ventura - 4.43

Roberto Alomar - 4.35

Derek Jeter - 4.33

Craig Biggio - 3.70

 

Robin lines up pretty well with these guys when you look at their overall value.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Yea, why dont you go ahead and relax a bit

 

 

 

and while you are relaxing, let me know why it isnt the same. The Marlins dropped a ton of dough on that team and had to dismantle it in 4 months because Ozzie didnt "immediately make it better"

That is what I was going to post. A bad team, signs a bunch of free agents, and now has high expectations. Almost exactly the same.

 

The 2012 White Sox were essentially the 2011 White Sox without Mark Buehrle. Somehow the team managed by Robin won more games.

[dewssox79]

It is tough to rank some of these guys. Sure the top 7 or so might be obvious but there are too many variables to actually rank some of these guys. talent, payroll etc

[chitownsportsfan]

Robin was a helluva player. HOVG for sure. Never had the peak required for a serious HOF case but was a good player for the better part of a decade and a useful player almost his entire career.

[brett05]

Yea, why dont you go ahead and relax a bit

 

 

 

and while you are relaxing, let me know why it isnt the same. The Marlins dropped a ton of dough on that team and had to dismantle it in 4 months because Ozzie didnt "immediately make it better"

Because the Sox team isn't put together the same way????

[brett05]

I posted with Brett on a different forum. This is all your going to get out of him. If you prove him wrong, he'll just reply with "sigh".

and you are??????

[brett05]

I'm not even sure what this is supposed to mean. You're the one defending a horrendous manager in Ozzie Guillen and I'm the fan boy?

 

Did you take a look at the link you posted? Because if you did I don't think you understand what you were looking at.

 

When I look at the page what I see is a guy who had averaged 23 HRs, 96 RBIs, and 5.1 fWAR per 162 with the Sox and had a slash of .274/.365/.440/.805. He also won 5 Gold Gloves with the Sox. A multi Gold Glove winning third basemen that puts up those kind offensive is a near Hall of Fame. Me saying that is not being a fan boy, it's just me knowing what the hell I'm talking about.

 

FYI, career fWAR/162 games (Robin vs the 5 most recent HOF electees and Jeter)

 

Ron Santo - 5.12

Frank Thomas - 5.05

Barry Larkin - 5.02

Robin Ventura - 4.43

Roberto Alomar - 4.35

Derek Jeter - 4.33

Craig Biggio - 3.70

 

Robin lines up pretty well with these guys when you look at their overall value.

 

I'd look at the link again since you aren't quoting it.

 

Check the Hall qualification. He's no where near an almost HOF

Edited February 16, 2015 by brett05

[brett05]

Robin was a helluva player. HOVG for sure. Never had the peak required for a serious HOF case but was a good player for the better part of a decade and a useful player almost his entire career.

Yep very good is not equal to near HOF. Thanks

[lasttriptotulsa]

Robin was a helluva player. HOVG for sure. Never had the peak required for a serious HOF case but was a good player for the better part of a decade and a useful player almost his entire career.

 

I think if Robin would have played in this day and age with the way we look at advanced stats, he would be a superstar. The guy played great defense, had good power, struck out at better than average rates, walked a ton, and during his peak hit roughly 25% better than league average and was a 5.5 fWAR player. That would make him roughly a top 10-15 position player in all of baseball.

[Kyyle23]

Because the Sox team isn't put together the same way????

 

Ah, you got me. You win. Ozzie will make this sox team better immediately, i concede

[brett05]

I think if Robin would have played in this day and age with the way we look at advanced stats, he would be a superstar. The guy played great defense, had good power, struck out at better than average rates, walked a ton, and during his peak hit roughly 25% better than league average and was a 5.5 fWAR player. That would make him roughly a top 10-15 position player in all of baseball.

Who knows.

 

All we do know is he got 7 votes his one shot on the ballot. And unless they do massive rule changes like they have with one other prominent 3b, he ain't getting in with the vets either.

[brett05]

Ah, you got me. You win. Ozzie will make this sox team better immediately, i concede

I understand, you hate Ozzie and love Robin. I have no issues with that even though I totally disagree.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Who knows.

 

All we do know is he got 7 votes his one shot on the ballot. And unless they do massive rule changes like they have with one other prominent 3b, he ain't getting in with the vets either.

 

Nobody said that Robin should be in the Hall of Fame or that he will ever get in. What I said was that during his peak he performed at a near Hall of Fame level. Which he did as evidenced by the multitude of Gold Gloves and the number of 5+ fWAR seasons. His peaked compared favorably to any number of Hall of Famers, but the main difference was he had a devastating ankle injury at age 29 that progressively worsened as he continued playing and eventually forced to walk with a cane when he finally retired at age 37. Had that injury never occurred, there is no doubt in my mind that Robin would have at least made it into the Hall of Fame discussion as he was a 56.8 fWAR player even with the injury and many state that the Hall of Fame discussion can begin once a player hits 60 fWAR.

[lasttriptotulsa]

I understand, you hate Ozzie and love Robin. I have no issues with that even though I totally disagree.

 

Your posts will hold a hell of a lot more weight around here if you include any sort of substance in them instead of interjecting your misguided opinion with out even attempting to make any sort of compelling argument.