Cafardo's manager ranking

[brett05]

Nobody said that Robin should be in the Hall of Fame or that he will ever get in. What I said was that during his peak he performed at a near Hall of Fame level. Which he did as evidenced by the multitude of Gold Gloves and the number of 5+ fWAR seasons. His peaked compared favorably to any number of Hall of Famers, but the main difference was he had a devastating ankle injury at age 29 that progressively worsened as he continued playing and eventually forced to walk with a cane when he finally retired at age 37. Had that injury never occurred, there is no doubt in my mind that Robin would have at least made it into the Hall of Fame discussion as he was a 56.8 fWAR player even with the injury and many state that the Hall of Fame discussion can begin once a player hits 60 fWAR.

And I provided my evidence on why he's not from bref

[Kyyle23]

I understand, you hate Ozzie and love Robin. I have no issues with that even though I totally disagree.

 

Yea, thats pretty much what i said

[chitownsportsfan]

I think if Robin would have played in this day and age with the way we look at advanced stats, he would be a superstar. The guy played great defense, had good power, struck out at better than average rates, walked a ton, and during his peak hit roughly 25% better than league average and was a 5.5 fWAR player. That would make him roughly a top 10-15 position player in all of baseball.

 

He def would have been more celebrated. He is a lot like Donaldson in that he plays good defense, gets on base, and has some pop at a relatively premium defensive position. If he hadn't torn up his foot he might have had a HOF case, after the injury he just wasn't the same bat speed wise.

[lasttriptotulsa]

And I provided my evidence on why he's not from bref

 

Okay I'll use your link to further my point even more.

 

Robin Ventura peak 10 years (90-99) - #s per 162 games .278/.367/.452/.819, 119 OPS+, 24 HRs, 100 RBIs, 86 BB, 89 Ks, 5.4 fWAR, 6 Gold Gloves

 

Brooks Robinson peak 10 years (62-71) - #s per 162 games .274/.331/.435/.766, 117 OPS+, 21 HRs, 90 RBIs, 53 BB, 59 Ks, 5.7 fWAR, 10 Gold Gloves

 

As you can see, Robin's peak matched up pretty well with Brooks Robinson's. Brooks Robinson was a first ballot Hall of Famer with 90%+ of the vote. The main difference between the two is that Brooks Robinson stayed healthy and played 2896 games, Robin did not and only was able to play 2079 games. Again, I am not saying Robin should be in the Hall of Fame I am just saying that at his best he was as good as a bunch of guys who have been inducted.

Edited February 16, 2015 by lasttriptotulsa

[brett05]

Okay I'll use your link to further my point even more.

 

Robin Ventura peak 10 years (90-99) - #s per 162 games .278/.367/.452/.819, 119 OPS+, 24 HRs, 100 RBIs, 86 BB, 89 Ks, 5.4 fWAR, 6 Gold Gloves

 

Brooks Robinson peak 10 years (62-71) - #s per 162 games .274/.331/.435/.766, 117 OPS+, 21 HRs, 90 RBIs, 53 BB, 59 Ks, 5.7 fWAR, 10 Gold Gloves

 

As you can see, Robin's peak matched up pretty well with Brooks Robinson's. Brooks Robinson was a first ballot Hall of Famer with 90%+ of the vote. The main difference between the two is that Brooks Robinson stayed healthy and played 2896 games, Robin did not and only was able to play 2079 games. Again, I am not saying Robin should be in the Hall of Fame I am just saying that at his best he was as good as a bunch of guys who have been inducted.

 

He averaged 3.9 WAR during the span.

 

In addition, for me, the eras are not comparable. But we clearly aren't getting anywhere with this.

[Dick Allen]

Middle 90s Robin would look very nice in the White Sox line up right now.

[lasttriptotulsa]

He averaged 3.9 WAR during the span.

 

In addition, for me, the eras are not comparable. But we clearly aren't getting anywhere with this.

 

How do you get 3.9 WAR? If you look at straight per season averages he would have had 4.58 bWAR and 4.64 fWAR, but those are pulled way down because he only played in 109 games in '94 (strike) and 54 games in '97 (injury). That's why I chose WAR per 162 games because it gives a better picture of how good they were on a game to game basis.

 

The good thing about stats like OPS+, wRC+ and WAR is that the era doesn't matter. It is how good you were versus your peers. A 120 wRC+ player is 20% better than league average whether it's 1900 or 2000.

[brett05]

Middle 90s Robin would look very nice in the White Sox line up right now.

That we all agree with. I'd love him in the #2 hole and have Melky move down behind LaRoche

[brett05]

How do you get 3.9 WAR? If you look at straight per season averages he would have had 4.58 bWAR and 4.64 fWAR, but those are pulled way down because he only played in 109 games in '94 (strike) and 54 games in '97 (injury). That's why I chose WAR per 162 games because it gives a better picture of how good they were on a game to game basis.

 

The good thing about stats like OPS+, wRC+ and WAR is that the era doesn't matter. It is how good you were versus your peers. A 120 wRC+ player is 20% better than league average whether it's 1900 or 2000.

I'm not going to go thru the flaws of the metrics.

 

That said you just take total war and divide by time played. 39.3 war divided by 10 years gives us his average as a White Sox. You are choosing an unrealistic (IMO) 162 game average as it makes your case look better. I choose what actually happened instead.

[Reddy]

I posted with Brett on a different forum. This is all your going to get out of him. If you prove him wrong, he'll just reply with "sigh".

Ooooh I'm gonna start gunning for that "sigh"

 

#newlifegoal

[Reddy]

I'd not have Robin ranked as high as he is. I'd also rank Sandberg ahead of him quite easily.

 

I'd love to have a replacement for him ASAP. If we start out like 2-6 please Jerry, can him and bring in somebody to manage the club. We have a shot this year.

 

Question

 

Can you be specific about what you think Robin does poorly?

[southsider2k5]

I don't see Robin as an icon at all.

 

I'd look at:

 

Ozzie right away. Takes all the pressure of the media upon himself instead of the media hounding the players.

 

The big difference between Ozzie and Robin is ego. Everything flows through that. Robin also never throws his own players under the bus, and keeps all of the team issues in the locker room. We never know about all of the type of stuff that Ozzie, or his kids, would run to Joe Cowley about.

[Dick Allen]

What people initially took as Ozzie's "genuis", the taking all the media pressure off the players and on to himself, was eventually shown to be nothing more than Ozzie's constant need of attention. He was a good manager at the beginning. He was bad at the end in Chicago, and horrific in Miami.

 

If he could shrink his head some and just get back to baseball and not all about Ozzie, he can be good again. I always thought he probably could. He has been saying the correct things in the media the last year or so. But after sitting behind Oney and Ozney at a game last year, and realizing how they all influence each other, and watching those clowns openly root against the White Sox, I don't think any good could come of Ozzie being a paid White Sox employee anymore.

[brett05]

Ooooh I'm gonna start gunning for that "sigh"

 

#newlifegoal

 

 

 

lol

[brett05]

Question

 

Can you be specific about what you think Robin does poorly?

 

Nothing super specific comes to mind. His handling of pitchers in game was pretty awful. He seemed to never really have a handle on that with that. He's also be prone to taking a hot guy out of the lineup because that guy wasn't a regular. I'm hoping he improves a ton this year. We'll see.

[Dick Allen]

Nothing super specific comes to mind. His handling of pitchers in game was pretty awful. He seemed to never really have a handle on that with that. He's also be prone to taking a hot guy out of the lineup because that guy wasn't a regular. I'm hoping he improves a ton this year. We'll see.

What non regular White Sox player has been hot the last couple of years?

[brett05]

What non regular White Sox player has been hot the last couple of years?

 

 

No like for a game or two. Say a guy like Garcia gets a hit, plays the next day and gets two more. Does he play the third day? Nope, back to the bench.

[Dick Allen]

No like for a game or two. Say a guy like Garcia gets a hit, plays the next day and gets two more. Does he play the third day? Nope, back to the bench.

You are criticizing Robin Ventura for not leaving a "hot" Leury Garcia in the line up? That is comedy gold. I thought the guys at WSI, what with their complaining about the stripes on pants, the patches on sleeves, the lack of smiles from the guy taking their parking money, were really reaching in the complaint department, but this may top that.

[brett05]

You are criticizing Robin Ventura for not leaving a "hot" Leury Garcia in the line up? That is comedy gold. I thought the guys at WSI, what with their complaining about the stripes on pants, the patches on sleeves, the lack of smiles from the guy taking their parking money, were really reaching in the complaint department, but this may top that.

 

 

It's a basic thing that managers do, but the bad ones don't. You ride a hot hand. You can laugh at that all you want.

[Dick Allen]

It's a basic thing that managers do, but the bad ones don't. You ride a hot hand. You can laugh at that all you want.

I like Leury Garcia more than most here, but the fact is, riding Leury Garcia makes guys bad managers.

[brett05]

I like Leury Garcia more than most here, but the fact is, riding Leury Garcia makes guys bad managers.

Not when they are hot it doesn't. He's hot you play him. He messes up or gets the 0 fer now is the time to put him back on the bench.

 

Don't get hung up on the name, get in tune with the idea.

[southsider2k5]

What people initially took as Ozzie's "genuis", the taking all the media pressure off the players and on to himself, was eventually shown to be nothing more than Ozzie's constant need of attention. He was a good manager at the beginning. He was bad at the end in Chicago, and horrific in Miami.

 

If he could shrink his head some and just get back to baseball and not all about Ozzie, he can be good again. I always thought he probably could. He has been saying the correct things in the media the last year or so. But after sitting behind Oney and Ozney at a game last year, and realizing how they all influence each other, and watching those clowns openly root against the White Sox, I don't think any good could come of Ozzie being a paid White Sox employee anymore.

 

That sounds about right to me if you mix in a little bit of believing his own press.

[Dick Allen]

Not when they are hot it doesn't. He's hot you play him. He messes up or gets the 0 fer now is the time to put him back on the bench.

 

Don't get hung up on the name, get in tune with the idea.

There is a pretty good chance Leury is going ofer if he had 4 hits the day before. Besides, there is a lot more to making out a line up than going by what the guy did the day before. This isn't basketball and the rim is the same width and height. The guy on the mound also matters. Conor Gillaspie has had 2 hits 3 games in a row, they are facing the Dodgers and Clayton Kershaw the next game, does a good manager disregard this has 0-4 written all over it? Your way, the answer is apparently, yes.

 

The Sox bench has pretty much sucked since Robin has been managing. There has really been no one you would want to have extended playing time. That particular complaint against Robin is a huge reach.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Dick Allen

[brett05]

There is a pretty good chance Leury is going ofer if he had 4 hits the day before. Besides, there is a lot more to making out a line up than going by what the guy did the day before. This isn't basketball and the rim is the same width and height. The guy on the mound also matters. Conor Gillaspie has had 2 hits 3 games in a row, they are facing the Dodgers and Clayton Kershaw the next game, does a good manager disregard this has 0-4 written all over it? Your way, the answer is apparently, yes.

 

The Sox bench has pretty much sucked since Robin has been managing. There has really been no one you would want to have extended playing time. That particular complaint against Robin is a huge reach.

 

 

Your way is that anyone that can read percentages can manage.

 

Are there times that you bench a hot hand? Of course. It's much, much more rare that I believe you are indicating.

[lasttriptotulsa]

Not when they are hot it doesn't. He's hot you play him. He messes up or gets the 0 fer now is the time to put him back on the bench.

 

Don't get hung up on the name, get in tune with the idea.

 

Bench guys are bench guys for a reason. Just because they get a couple hits one game doesn't make them hot or change the fact that they are not starting caliber players. It doesn't make Robin a bad manager because he doesn't give starts to Konerko and his .572 OPS, or L. Garcia and his .399 OPS, or Nieto and .635 OPS just because they have one good game. Starting those guys more than once a week or so would be what makes you a bad manager.