southsider2k5 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 04:15 PM) One thing he did poorly was deciding when to pull starters. One example would be the game against the Angels where Sale had thrown a lot of pitches and was dominant, then had a bad inning. But Robin decides to send him back out and he ends up giving up a grand slam to Trout that nightmare inning. With the pen he had last year, I can hardly fault him for wanting to use Chris Sale in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 05:17 PM) With the pen he had last year, I can hardly fault him for wanting to use Chris Sale in that situation. yup. decisions don't exist in a vacuum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggins Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Not only that but the pitch Trout hit out was at his ankles. Maybe 3 guys in baseball can hit that pitch. It was just a case where a great hitter won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (daggins @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 07:40 PM) Not only that but the pitch Trout hit out was at his ankles. Maybe 3 guys in baseball can hit that pitch. It was just a case where a great hitter won. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Sale never should have started the inning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 This is just one instance by the way, it stood out the most. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 09:01 PM) That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that Sale never should have started the inning. You really think our bullpen was LESS likely to give up a home run to Trout than our 2.17 ERA starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 08:06 PM) You really think our bullpen was LESS likely to give up a home run to Trout than our 2.17 ERA starter? Trout probably would not have hit that inning had we pulled Sale before it started. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 You guys are missing my point- I had no problem with Robin leaving Sale out there to face Trout. However, I did have a problem with him bringing Sale out to start the inning when he had already thrown many pitches, was showing clear signs of regression, and had a fairly comfortable lead. You also have to remember that this was one of his first few starts back from the DL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 09:07 PM) Trout probably would not have hit that inning had we pulled Sale before it started. Based on how good our bullpen was last year? Like a 5 era or something (completely guessing on that number, but it was bad) Regardless, you've pointed out one instance. I bet Pete Carroll wishes he could have a call back too somewhere along the line. Doesn't make him a bad coach. Edited February 18, 2015 by Reddy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Abreu Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 08:09 PM) Based on how good our bullpen was last year? Like a 5 era or something (completely guessing on that number, but it was bad) Regardless, you've pointed out one instance. I wish Pete Carroll could have a call back too somewhere along the line. Doesn't make him a bad coach. I'm not going to look through every box score to find multiple instances of Robin pulling a starter too early or leaving him in too long, I don't have time for that. I don't think Robin is a bad manager, this is my only issue with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 09:12 PM) I'm not going to look through every box score to find multiple instances of Robin pulling a starter too early or leaving him in too long, I don't have time for that. I don't think Robin is a bad manager, this is my only issue with him. But this is a microcosm of my general point, in that folks that dislike Robin (not you) aren't able to say why with any statistical support. It's all because he's not flashy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 On the other hand, there's not a comprehensive statistical measure that's universally accepted, either. That system for looking at relievers' leverage is interesting, and it's better than something like pythagorean wins and losses, but it's just one facet of managing. For example, how much would that one facet alone be weighted at, 15%? 20%? What would the other tenets of managing be with measurables? Line-up construction? Dealing with the media? Effective use of double shifts? PH/platooning decisions? Would would you measure relationships with the coaching staff and front office, etc.? Showing patience and poise, versus being more fiery, like a drill instructor? These are very subjective and changeable aspects as well...they won't hold constant as a manager evolves. Wins per payroll/salary dollar? Well, that will always overrate managers of teams like the Marlins or Padres, and weigh down the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, etc. Even with your bullpen leverage stat, it doesn't necessarily predict who would do the best with the most talented bullpen...who would be able to manage best in the playoffs, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 10:06 PM) On the other hand, there's not a comprehensive statistical measure that's universally accepted, either. That system for looking at relievers' leverage is interesting, and it's better than something like pythagorean wins and losses, but it's just one facet of managing. For example, how much would that one facet alone be weighted at, 15%? 20%? What would the other tenets of managing be with measurables? Line-up construction? Dealing with the media? Effective use of double shifts? PH/platooning decisions? Would would you measure relationships with the coaching staff and front office, etc.? Showing patience and poise, versus being more fiery, like a drill instructor? These are very subjective and changeable aspects as well...they won't hold constant as a manager evolves. Wins per payroll/salary dollar? Well, that will always overrate managers of teams like the Marlins or Padres, and weigh down the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, Angels, etc. Even with your bullpen leverage stat, it doesn't necessarily predict who would do the best with the most talented bullpen...who would be able to manage best in the playoffs, etc. Totally true. It doesn't even prove RV is good with bullpen management in general - simply that he was very good LAST YEAR. There is no system yet to project this stuff going forward, and of course there are other aspects of managing, but one of the biggest complaints about Robin has been bullpen usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 09:22 PM) Totally true. It doesn't even prove RV is good with bullpen management in general - simply that he was very good LAST YEAR. There is no system yet to project this stuff going forward, and of course there are other aspects of managing, but one of the biggest complaints about Robin has been bullpen usage. He was very good compared to others using the graph, but not necessarily did a good performance historically, right? Edited February 18, 2015 by brett05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Sale only ended up with 115 pitches even after the Trout homer, so suggesting that he was gassed or something is a little crazy too. And Trout hit an absolutely great pitch. Jeff Sullivan outlined it in June. Maybe Ventura should have gotten Sale out at the first sign of trouble, but that's his best pitcher and one of the best in the league at a good pitch count point. He's going to trust him to get out of it without giving up 5 runs and almost every time, he's going to. It sucks that he didn't that one time, but I would have found it hard to fault Ventura no matter what he did in that situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (brett05 @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 07:06 AM) He was very good compared to others using the graph, but not necessarily did a good performance historically, right? There's no data on it one way or another. But after last year's data, it's silly not to give him the benefit of the doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (brett05 @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 06:06 AM) He was very good compared to others using the graph, but not necessarily did a good performance historically, right? What the data suggests is if you were unhappy with how Robin used his bullpen, you would have been unhappy with how just about every manager used his bullpen in 2014. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 How often did Ozzie ride the hot bench hands in '05? I'm curious to know how many times guys like Timo & Ozuna had consecutive starts of 3+ games over the regs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Jerksticks @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 08:50 AM) How often did Ozzie ride the hot bench hands in '05? I'm curious to know how many times guys like Timo & Ozuna had consecutive starts of 3+ games over the regs. About the only two I can think of occurred in 2008. Ramirez was the opening day CF but was absolutely lost and a trainwreck at the plate. Carlos Quentin got a couple of games early on in place of Jerry Owens, and he started killing the ball. Then Ramirez kind of got going when playing 2B for Uribe, who was hitting like dogs***. Crede got hurt and Ozzie needed someone to play 3B for him, so he turned to Uribe to be his primary 3B. That's about all I got offhand. FWIW, Ventura made strikingly similar moves during the 2012 season. Also, to answer the original question, Ozzie rode the hot hand all year, because that team was hot all year except for the month or so where Podsednik got hurt (and Cleveland couldn't lose). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (daggins @ Feb 17, 2015 -> 07:40 PM) Not only that but the pitch Trout hit out was at his ankles. Maybe 3 guys in baseball can hit that pitch. It was just a case where a great hitter won. And one of them plays 1B for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Reddy @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 08:22 AM) There's no data on it one way or another. But after last year's data, it's silly not to give him the benefit of the doubt. Not for me it's not. When I was watching the game and the decisions he made at times were just baffling. I'm hoping for improvement but I am very skeptical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brett05 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 08:27 AM) What the data suggests is if you were unhappy with how Robin used his bullpen, you would have been unhappy with how just about every manager used his bullpen in 2014. Perhaps, but that is only speculation. We have no idea how anyone else would run the 2014 White Sox Pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (brett05 @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 09:38 AM) Not for me it's not. When I was watching the game and the decisions he made at times were just baffling. I'm hoping for improvement but I am very skeptical. Which choices? It's hard to come to a place, say "he makes bad choices," not give examples, and be taken seriously. Because, really, when given the choice between chickens*** and pigs*** to put into a late game situation, those decisions are going to end up looking baffling more often than not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (brett05 @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 09:40 AM) Perhaps, but that is only speculation. We have no idea how anyone else would run the 2014 White Sox Pen. How could they have managed it any differently to improve the outcome? Those pitchers were terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Feb 18, 2015 -> 09:50 AM) Which choices? It's hard to come to a place, say "he makes bad choices," not give examples, and be taken seriously. Because, really, when given the choice between chickens*** and pigs*** to put into a late game situation, those decisions are going to end up looking baffling more often than not. This is the best ever summary I have seen for the 2014 White Sox bullpen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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