2015-2016 NFL Thread

[Chisoxfn]

Isn't it at least a little bit different when it's the QB though? The Bears picking up someone with Ben's past to be their nickel DB may make me uncomfortable, but the Bears picking up Ben may very well make me not want to be a Bears fan anymore.

I don't really think so. QB or anyone else, it is still the same crime. Plus, it isn't like the Steelers picked him up after he knowingly did this, his incidents happened after he was on the team and the league and court system handled it (I might think he's guilty and a scumbug who got away from it, but the reality is none of us knew all of the facts and we have a court system for a reason).

[Chisoxfn]

Jaylon Smith enters the NFL draft.

 

I would still love him in a Bears uniform despite the knee injury. I think he can be a Luke Keuchley

I keep hoping he slides to the Bears in the 2nd round. In fact, I'd be thrilled if we could somehow add two injured LB's (Jack & Smith) in the first two rounds. Reality is only one is a possibility and I'd also be fine moving down and grabbing Jaylon later in the 1st.

[Jenksismyhero]

That? Have you ever actually read Lizzy Seeberg's police statement? Not what other people have said about the incident but her actual statement to police. Even if you accept her statement as 100% true, what she claimed happened does not rise to the level of rape, sexual assault, or any other felony. A misdemeanor at worst. Maybe you can find a lawyer to explain this to you. How is ND responsible for the media and the girl's family inaccurately describing what happened?

 

I've said repeatedly that the video assistant's death was terrible and that the AD should have been held accountable for it. (Fortunately for BK, the AD was present that day and thus was the highest ranking person responsible, as much as I'd personally love to lay the blame on BK)

 

I don't know how the university and/or football program has any liability for one of its players getting catfished. No evidence that the university knew she was fake until right before the story came out.

 

The academic employee got canned and probably getting charged. (though you have used a very liberal definition of "prostituted" since no money changed hands).

 

No university's athletic programs are without people doing bad things. The question is how the university deals with these things once discovered. I'll put ND's actions up against any FBS school in that regard. Five players missed the entire 2014 season for something that probably doesn't even get them a slap on the wrist at most FBS schools.

 

"Your honor, the prosecution rests."

 

I mean come on man, reread this post and replace Notre Dame with "Steelers" and you have the exact same position your friend has. I don't get why you think he's wrong when you do it yourself.

 

By the way, was the bolded supposed to be some dig at me?

[cabiness42]

Jaylon Smith enters the NFL draft.

 

I would still love him in a Bears uniform despite the knee injury. I think he can be a Luke Keuchley

 

He's the best defensive player I've ever seen at ND (Not old enough to have seen Buoniconti or Page). No idea if he gets back to that level post-injury, but if so, he's a value pick at 11 or anywhere after.

[2nd_city_saint787]

I keep hoping he slides to the Bears in the 2nd round. In fact, I'd be thrilled if we could somehow add two injured LB's (Jack & Smith) in the first two rounds. Reality is only one is a possibility and I'd also be fine moving down and grabbing Jaylon later in the 1st.

 

I think they'll probably add an ILB in FA.

 

What does worry me a bit is I've heard them say good things about SMC even after the season. Fangio seems to like him for some reason. I'd rather see Timu be a starter next year over Shea.

[cabiness42]

"Your honor, the prosecution rests."

 

I mean come on man, reread this post and replace Notre Dame with "Steelers" and you have the exact same position your friend has. I don't get why you think he's wrong when you do it yourself.

 

By the way, was the bolded supposed to be some dig at me?

 

Not same position. Not even close.

 

Prince Shembo - what he was accused of, in the police statement, was not sexual assault, rape or even a felony. Prince even admitted that her statement was more or less accurate

 

Ben Roethlisberger - what he was accused of, by multiple women, was sexual assault, and even though he wasn't charged the NFL thought it was serious enough to suspend him

 

It's a very serious stretch to equate the two (again, consult a lawyer if this is over your head) just because both were labeled with the term "sexual assault" and both weren't charged. Imagine trying to make an argument like that in a courtroom?

 

Then to add on a bunch of other things at ND that aren't even player-conduct related is pointless.

 

I'm talking about, as a husband and father, having a very hard time supporting a team headed by a guy with Ben's history. I'm on the record now, if Ben were to somehow become a coach at ND after his career is over, I'd be furious about it.

[Chisoxfn]

I think they'll probably add an ILB in FA.

 

What does worry me a bit is I've heard them say good things about SMC even after the season. Fangio seems to like him for some reason. I'd rather see Timu be a starter next year over Shea.

I would love them to get Wolfe & Trevethan or whatever his name is from the Bronco's. Both would be tremendous upgrades and are young (plus they are "known's" from the sense that Fox is very familiar with them and their work ethic. It also ensures that Pace has more flexibility to target best available (and I kind of am hoping that a tackle falls to them). I don't think Shea is breaking the bank so it is probably a depth move / protection move. Plus I'm not going to argue Fangio here (not yet) and I presume they might view SMC as a good secondary player (meaning...put him around better talent and he will be better / solid at a cost effective spot). So much crap all over the defense last year, hard to truly judge people.

 

Plus...this was SMC's first year playing that position. But I really hope we see a couple new LB's and ideally a safety and corner.

[Chisoxfn]

Not same position. Not even close.

 

Prince Shembo - what he was accused of, in the police statement, was not sexual assault, rape or even a felony. Prince even admitted that her statement was more or less accurate

 

Ben Roethlisberger - what he was accused of, by multiple women, was sexual assault, and even though he wasn't charged the NFL thought it was serious enough to suspend him

 

It's a very serious stretch to equate the two (again, consult a lawyer if this is over your head) just because both were labeled with the term "sexual assault" and both weren't charged. Imagine trying to make an argument like that in a courtroom?

 

Then to add on a bunch of other things at ND that aren't even player-conduct related is pointless.

 

I'm talking about, as a husband and father, having a very hard time supporting a team headed by a guy with Ben's history. I'm on the record now, if Ben were to somehow become a coach at ND after his career is over, I'd be furious about it.

Ok - This discussion is over. Done. The ND element is no longer being discussed here (by you or Jenks or anyone else). If you guys want to keep talking about Ben, fine, but this ND spiel has been killed to death over the years here and is just a done argument. OVER. Capoot.

[Balta1701]

Got into a very long/heated "discussion" on FB Sunday about Ben's past and whether or not it should affect one's decision to be a fan of the team. Predictably, the Steelers fans got very defensive and constantly trotted out:

 

1) Ben never got convicted or even charged, they were just allegations

2) almost every team, pro or college, has at least one player with some level of domestic violence accusations against them so why single out the Steelers

 

My responses:

 

1) Ben was never charged but the allegations were from multiple women in different places at different times which to me, even though charges were never filed, is more serious than a single unsubstantiated allegation

2) A QB of a professional team has a higher level of notoriety than other NFL players, who in turn have a higher level of notoriety than any college player (who is gone is

 

Any thoughts?

Without dealing with the other stuff people went after you for...compared with, for example, the Patrick Kane case, there's a huge difference to me in the the Roethlisberger one. There's a public, district attorney produced investigation document. Basically on the date the investigation report was released, the DA stood up there, said he thought a crime happened, but said that he did not have enough to bring charges at least in part because the actual victim was hesitant to go through with the public spectacle of prosecuting a football star when she was quite drunk during the event so she was going to come out looking bad too. We have that document, including summaries of witness statements, evidence, statements from others present, etc.

[cabiness42]

Without dealing with the other stuff people went after you for...compared with, for example, the Patrick Kane case, there's a huge difference to me in the the Roethlisberger one. There's a public, district attorney produced investigation document. Basically on the date the investigation report was released, the DA stood up there, said he thought a crime happened, but said that he did not have enough to bring charges at least in part because the actual victim was hesitant to go through with the public spectacle of prosecuting a football star when she was quite drunk during the event so she was going to come out looking bad too. We have that document, including summaries of witness statements, evidence, statements from others present, etc.

 

Neither myself not any of the people I was having my original discussion with are big enough hockey fans to know enough about Kane to compare him to Ben.

[cabiness42]

I don't really think so. QB or anyone else, it is still the same crime. Plus, it isn't like the Steelers picked him up after he knowingly did this, his incidents happened after he was on the team and the league and court system handled it (I might think he's guilty and a scumbug who got away from it, but the reality is none of us knew all of the facts and we have a court system for a reason).

 

I'm looking at it from this standpoint, changing it to the Bears for example.

 

My wife knows who Jay Cutler is. My wife has no clue who Sherrod Martin is. If Cutler has a similar history as Ben, I have to answer to her as to why I'm still a Bears fan. If Martin has that history, it never becomes an issue.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Neither myself not any of the people I was having my original discussion with are big enough hockey fans to know enough about Kane to compare him to Ben.

that's just the example I gave for this site. Basically, that's the reason I can think in this case we have something actually bad that happened and went unpunished. The prosecutor told us so. He released everything.

[GoSox05]

This is such a deep draft for ILB/OLB.

 

 

Reggie Ragland

Myles Jack

Jaylon Smith

Darron Lee

Su'a Cravens

Deion Jones

Scooby Wright

 

 

I still think Jaylon Smith goes in the first round.

[Chisoxfn]

Neither myself not any of the people I was having my original discussion with are big enough hockey fans to know enough about Kane to compare him to Ben.

Personally, if I were to throw out a comparison, I'm throwing out Cosby (not that Big Ben's is to that extent, but it seems pretty clear to me their is a lot of smoke around all of Ben's incidents vs. Kane with one incident).

[Chisoxfn]

Oddly enough, given who and how much money we have in FA (along with fact we get White back, so essentially have 2 first round picks), I'm starting to think now might actually be the time to use a 1st rounder on a QB. Of course, I'll say that this purely assumes Fox, Pace & company are very high on said QB and I'd presume the QB would be Lynch or Wentz, guys who need a little more time and thus might be their at 11 because they don't offer teams the "quick fix" alternative. Of course Dallas could nab one of them as the predecessor to Romo (as could the Giants for Eli).

 

They are the only two QB's (outside of Hackenberg) who have what I call those elite QB skills (from a pure physical perspective). Hackenberg is talented, but you have to ding him for the lack of production / improvements (poor coaching or not). Gabriel (former Bear front office man) has raved about both Wentz & Lynch.

[cabiness42]

Personally, if I were to throw out a comparison, I'm throwing out Cosby (not that Big Ben's is to that extent, but it seems pretty clear to me their is a lot of smoke around all of Ben's incidents vs. Kane with one incident).

 

Good comparison, except that Cosby isn't on a team. His fans don't have loyalty built up the way Steelers fans do. I don't see too many people saying they are still Cosby fans after all this has surfaced the way plenty of people are still fans of Ben.

[Chisoxfn]

Good comparison, except that Cosby isn't on a team. His fans don't have loyalty built up the way Steelers fans do. I don't see too many people saying they are still Cosby fans after all this has surfaced the way plenty of people are still fans of Ben.

See, I don't know anyone that is a fan of Big Ben. I know plenty of Steeler fans and they might think Big Ben is a great QB, but they aren't necessarily Big Ben fans.

[cabiness42]

Oddly enough, given who and how much money we have in FA (along with fact we get White back, so essentially have 2 first round picks), I'm starting to think now might actually be the time to use a 1st rounder on a QB. Of course, I'll say that this purely assumes Fox, Pace & company are very high on said QB and I'd presume the QB would be Lynch or Wentz, guys who need a little more time and thus might be their at 11 because they don't offer teams the "quick fix" alternative. Of course Dallas could nab one of them as the predecessor to Romo (as could the Giants for Eli).

 

They are the only two QB's (outside of Hackenberg) who have what I call those elite QB skills (from a pure physical perspective). Hackenberg is talented, but you have to ding him for the lack of production / improvements (poor coaching or not). Gabriel (former Bear front office man) has raved about both Wentz & Lynch.

 

I have no issue with picking Jay's successor if the right guy is identified and available, but can you really justify picking a guy at 11 that you don't plan on starting right away?

[cabiness42]

See, I don't know anyone that is a fan of Big Ben. I know plenty of Steeler fans and they might think Big Ben is a great QB, but they aren't necessarily Big Ben fans.

 

They wear his jersey, more than any other Steeler.

[RockRaines]

LOL, where did you go to college Rock?

We were also partners in summer golf class. Loved the guy.

[Chisoxfn]

I have no issue with picking Jay's successor if the right guy is identified and available, but can you really justify picking a guy at 11 that you don't plan on starting right away?

I can. The Packers did it with Rodgers. And if their was ever a time you could do it, while still ascending, now would be the time. Lets face reality...this is a team that has to get better, not worse, or the people leading the organization are gone anyway. So the reality is, unless the Bears advance to high level of success with Jay, they aren't going to get a chance to draft a future QB. Given White will already be an addition, this is one of those rare times, where you might have that luxury (I'd argue you can probably grab Wentz a little later in the 1st and it is super unlikely Lynch moves anywhere but up, although who knows), but if you see a guy you really like, why not get him now, knowing you can use Jay for another year or two, continue to develop this guy, and than potentially deal Jay for something else (and thus attempt to minimize any transitional downtime as you can focus on your defense, etc.)/

 

Not sure whether I'd ultimately do it, but if they think pretty highly of a guy (and that his talent is that of a higher pick and he's the right guy, given the importance of QB, you have to do it). Theoretically we are only going to be getting worse picks from here on out (at least if you are viewing this from Pace / Fox's perspective), so I could see the argument to be made (again assuming the scouting reports back up the fact that you think they are a potential All Pro / Above Avg QB).

[bmags]

I don't like a single qb in this draft.

[Chisoxfn]

I don't like a single qb in this draft.

I really think a lot of Paxton Lynch. More I read about him, more I like him. If we were talking Goff or Cook in 1st, at this point, I say crazy talk.

[cabiness42]

I can. The Packers did it with Rodgers. And if their was ever a time you could do it, while still ascending, now would be the time. Lets face reality...this is a team that has to get better, not worse, or the people leading the organization are gone anyway. So the reality is, unless the Bears advance to high level of success with Jay, they aren't going to get a chance to draft a future QB. Given White will already be an addition, this is one of those rare times, where you might have that luxury (I'd argue you can probably grab Wentz a little later in the 1st and it is super unlikely Lynch moves anywhere but up, although who knows), but if you see a guy you really like, why not get him now, knowing you can use Jay for another year or two, continue to develop this guy, and than potentially deal Jay for something else (and thus attempt to minimize any transitional downtime as you can focus on your defense, etc.)/

 

Not sure whether I'd ultimately do it, but if they think pretty highly of a guy (and that his talent is that of a higher pick and he's the right guy, given the importance of QB, you have to do it). Theoretically we are only going to be getting worse picks from here on out (at least if you are viewing this from Pace / Fox's perspective), so I could see the argument to be made (again assuming the scouting reports back up the fact that you think they are a potential All Pro / Above Avg QB).

 

There is a HUGE difference between 11th pick and 24th pick. I'm not saying the Bears should absolutely not do it, but you better be pretty damn sure of your QB if you are going to use the 11th pick on him and not start him. Now, if the Bears trade down to somewhere around 24 and do this, that's better. A guy who isn't ready to start right away probably isn't getting picked before then anyway.

[Balta1701]

They wear his jersey, more than any other Steeler.

They also talk here about his 2010 suspension as though it was a case of RG being unfair. Came up a lot when they were talking about Brady last spring.

 

I completely disagree with any assessment of that being unfair and think that's a perfect case for the commish to have that power, personally.