2015-2016 NFL Thread

[Chisoxfn]

You are downplaying the importance of this regimes first draft pick. I think it is huge and something they really dont want to screw up on. Hey if they want to roll the dice on Mariota with so many question marks and big ones I might add (like not having an NFL arm and not being able to make decisions in the pocket with h/o throw on first read at Oregon) then they have some big balls. I will like that they have the confidence to do that but you really dont get free passes this day and age. You have to succeed pretty quickly and cant have huge failures or you are gone.

Where have you heard about him not having an NFL arm. I think everyone I've heard talked thinks highly of his arm and physical traits. I also think a draft is the entirety of the draft and other areas. I think swinging on a OLB like Shea is a far bigger mistake or moving up for someone like Williams would be far worse than moving up to take a QB that the front office thinks highly of (it isn't like they would be trading up because they had concerns, they'd be moving up because they grade him out strongly).

 

Me, I'd trade down. I think if you know talent, you move down a bit, stockpile day 1 / day 2 picks and load up on quality football players. But the idea of moving up to take a DT and being stuck with Claussen and some 2nd or 3rd round pick is a heck of a lot worse than us moving up and having Mariotta plus future picks (especially in a draft that has 3-4 Dt's that will be available in the secondary rounds, impact rb's that should be available later in the draft, etc).

[shipps]

Where have you heard about him not having an NFL arm. I think everyone I've heard talked thinks highly of his arm and physical traits. I also think a draft is the entirety of the draft and other areas. I think swinging on a OLB like Shea is a far bigger mistake or moving up for someone like Williams would be far worse than moving up to take a QB that the front office thinks highly of (it isn't like they would be trading up because they had concerns, they'd be moving up because they grade him out strongly).

 

Me, I'd trade down. I think if you know talent, you move down a bit, stockpile day 1 / day 2 picks and load up on quality football players. But the idea of moving up to take a DT and being stuck with Claussen and some 2nd or 3rd round pick is a heck of a lot worse than us moving up and having Mariotta plus future picks (especially in a draft that has 3-4 Dt's that will be available in the secondary rounds, impact rb's that should be available later in the draft, etc).

 

I should have clarified. Not arm strength specifically but NFL arm in general in regards to release and accuracy. Both Greg Gabrielle and Hub Arkush have both said this. And they claim to be hearing it from the majority of the people they know on the inside too. Mind you Hub and Greg have been wrong on plenty of things to but I still respect their opinions and their insider info.

[Kyyle23]

I should have clarified. Not arm strength specifically but NFL arm in general in regards to release and accuracy. Both Greg Gabrielle and Hub Arkush have both said this. And they claim to be hearing it from the majority of the people they know on the inside too. Mind you Hub and Greg have been wrong on plenty of things to but I still respect their opinions and their insider info.

 

No, you were right the first time. Greg Gabriel said he is pretty bad when it comes to passes 20+ yards, and in the next level he will be exposed

[iamshack]

A lot of people like a lot of things on Williams and his character appears to be high. HE is also said to have a slow reaction and I haven't heard many NFL insiders who have said they are certain he can correct that or that it won't impact his ability to be a difference maker at the NFL level (where everyone is quicker / stronger). I like Williams a lot but I don't know that the difference between him and someone else @ 7 would be all that significant, to be frank.

 

If Mariotta hits, the difference between him and pretty much anyone we could draft would be there, thus, I would be okay moving up for that pick. I didn't say that it will happen but NFL people like pretty much everything about Marcus except for the unknown. No one really knows how he will respond to being in a pro-set. Everyone things the make-up and work ethic are their and that he gave some indications of being advanced (for running a spread offense) but the reality is he has never had a chance to showcase that ability at the collegiate level.

 

All of his other skills are reflective of a top overall pick but it is the unknown that has everyone concerned. I'd argue that unknown exists with almost every freaking QB whose drafted. You typically get picked where you do based upon the physical skills, which are a requisite, but it is the mental skills at the QB position, which when matched with strong physical tools, will ultimately allow you to have long-term success. I have zero idea if Marcus would work, but at least we'd be putting him in a situation where we were rebuilding and could take some lumps early. He'd also be coming to a strong culture with a supposed bright young NFL mind.

 

Lets also remember, if the plan is to move away from Jay anyway, than by doing this, Pace almost gets two shots at QB. He takes a shot now and than a few years from now if everything else is moving forward but QB, he could have a shot to take one more shot (as could Fox). Plus going with a young QB and taking the hit on Jay, would put the Bears in an extremely favorable cap situation 1-2 years down the road when ideally we would be headed toward competitiveness.

I have to say, I think you have been right on with these last few posts about MM.

 

If a QB ends up being a franchise QB, it justifies taking him anywhere, doesn't matter if he wasn't viewed as the #1 overall pick.

 

The problem does not occur often because a QB was "overdrafted." The problem occurs because a QB busts.

 

 

[shipps]

No, you were right the first time. Greg Gabriel said he is pretty bad when it comes to passes 20+ yards, and in the next level he will be exposed

 

Well I thought I heard him give that opinion on the radio but went back to read his scouting report and it was now about his release and his accuracy. Yes it was about 20 yards or more pass attempts but didn't state because of arm strength.

[2nd_city_saint787]

Here's an article that really changed my mind about Mariotta...

 

www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/52722/349/2015s-quarterback-conundrum

 

BUT I do believe all the earlier reports that said the staff are all a bunch of Jay fan boys now, and that this bleacher report report should be taken as a bleacher report report.

Edited April 8, 2015 by scs787

[LittleHurt05]

i would take the 2 pick, draft Leonard Williams and figure out the QB position later.

 

Leonard Williams doesn't get you closer to a Super Bowl if you don't have a QB. I don't know if Mariota will be any good, but if you have the chance to go for a QB with potential to be good, I say go for it, that's how important QBs are nowadays. Give Mariota 2-3 years, if he's not good, move on to the next. With the changes in the rooke wage scale, it's not like you will have to sign him to a massive Braford-esque contract.

 

The Rams traded down, acquired so many great draft picks, and how many playoff appearances has that earned them? You need to find a QB.

[shipps]

Here's an article that really changed my mind about Mariotta...

 

www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/52722/349/2015s-quarterback-conundrum

 

BUT I do believe all the earlier reports that said the staff are all a bunch of Jay fan boys now, and that this bleacher report report should be taken as a bleacher report report.

 

Very interesting stuff. Contradicting a lot of the beliefs that Mariota is the QB of the two that is a short pass only guy.

 

Thanks for posting this.

[bmags]

I think I'm now Pro-Mariota mainly because I'm annoyed around draft time how everyone will just throw around consensus based off of some not that in depth scouting and then just regurgitating ad nauseum and then go CRAZY when it turns out not to be what the team scouts went on on draft day.

[RockRaines]

Funny us as Bears fans are critical of QB's succeeding in the NFL because of arm strength when we literally have the poster child QB for "arm strength isnt everything."

[Kyyle23]

Funny us as Bears fans are critical of QB's succeeding in the NFL because of arm strength when we literally have the poster child QB for "arm strength isnt everything."

 

Arm strength doesnt really bother me so much as the accuracy concerns, and the fact that he has the "system QB" stigma. Just as much as Jay is a poster child for "arm strength isnt everything", he is also a poster child for "accuracy is pretty important"

[RockRaines]

Arm strength doesnt really bother me so much as the accuracy concerns, and the fact that he has the "system QB" stigma. Just as much as Jay is a poster child for "arm strength isnt everything", he is also a poster child for "accuracy is pretty important"

Every single college QB is a "system QB", people just tend to use that again spread ones because its easy. Spread offenses are so different from each other yet its all called a single term. Mariotta is a very good college QB, in fact probably the best one I saw all year. Will that translate? Who knows. I personally think its a combination of intelligence and ability to anticipate that is the most important factor in NFL success. The rest is just stuff for people to debate pre-draft.

[Kyyle23]

Every single college QB is a "system QB", people just tend to use that again spread ones because its easy. Spread offenses are so different from each other yet its all called a single term. Mariotta is a very good college QB, in fact probably the best one I saw all year. Will that translate? Who knows. I personally think its a combination of intelligence and ability to anticipate that is the most important factor in NFL success. The rest is just stuff for people to debate pre-draft.

 

And because a large amount of Spread offense quarterbacks have failed at the NFL level. I understand Mariota was very good at Oregon, but he wouldnt be the first heisman winning QB that ran a spread offense and fell on his face in the NFL.

[RockRaines]

And because a large amount of Spread offense quarterbacks have failed at the NFL level. I understand Mariota was very good at Oregon, but he wouldnt be the first heisman winning QB that ran a spread offense and fell on his face in the NFL.

Depends what kind of spread of course. QB's like Big Ben were in a throwing spread vs an option attack.

[Kyyle23]

Depends what kind of spread of course. QB's like Big Ben were in a throwing spread vs an option attack.

 

I saw what your buckeyes did to his speed, and i didnt like that at all. In fact, even though he threw for +300, i really didnt like anything i saw from him in the Championship game.

[RockRaines]

I saw what your buckeyes did to his speed, and i didnt like that at all. In fact, even though he threw for +300, i really didnt like anything i saw from him in the Championship game.

You have to take into account his WR group was pretty weak that night as well though. I thought he was the only player on Oregon that was ready for prime time.

[bmags]

Did you guys like what Winston did vs. Oregon?

[shipps]

This is one of the more positive articles I have found on Mariota. And its really not THAT positive.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000040...n-remind-you-of

 

Executive 1: Colin Kaepernick

"The easy answer is Kaepernick. Both have rare speed and were unpolished passers. Both were great kids coming out of college."

 

Executive 2: Robert Griffin III

"This is a tough one. At the same point in their careers, I'd say RGIII. They have similar arm strengths, and an ability to run, escape and extend plays."

 

Executive 3: Colin Kaepernick

"He reminds me of Kaepernick, but Colin is bigger and strong than Mariota. I think Mariota might be a little bit faster."

 

Executive 4: Colin Kaepernick

"He reminds me of Kaepernick, but with better instincts and a little less arm."

 

Executive 5: Sam Bradford

"He's a more athletic version of Sam Bradford."

 

Conclusion: The more I think of it, the comparison that caught my eye was Bradford. There are a lot of similarities. Personally, I thought Bradford was more a accurate passer in college than Mariota.

[Chisoxfn]

Very interesting stuff. Contradicting a lot of the beliefs that Mariota is the QB of the two that is a short pass only guy.

 

Thanks for posting this.

Marriota's other issue is his wideouts generated a lot of seperation so he didn't need to refine some of his mechanics (which goes back to some of Gabriel's concerns) and the key again is whether he has the work ethic and ability to refine. None of these guys are all pro QB's today, but Marcus and Jameis have the skill sets to be. What they make of it and how they handle the adjustments and the mental side of the NFL game is to be determined. Hard to say and it is why QB has such a high bust rate. The one thing I like about Winston is we have seen him run a pro-style offense and as a result of his successes their he gets pluses from me in that regard. However, they are both thought of as smart QB's who can anticipate, we just don't have a lot of film on Marcus demonstrating such.

 

Like I said, I'm not going to get pissed on us drafting a guy who is a consensus top pick at QB early (or moving up to get him). I'd be pissed if we moved up for any other position or took someone like Hundley @ 7. Taking Marcus is more akin to any team who takes the top QB on the board early (and one who is the #1 pick if Winston isn't in this draft).

[RockRaines]

Marriota's other issue is his wideouts generated a lot of seperation so he didn't need to refine some of his mechanics (which goes back to some of Gabriel's concerns) and the key again is whether he has the work ethic and ability to refine. None of these guys are all pro QB's today, but Marcus and Jameis have the skill sets to be. What they make of it and how they handle the adjustments and the mental side of the NFL game is to be determined. Hard to say and it is why QB has such a high bust rate. The one thing I like about Winston is we have seen him run a pro-style offense and as a result of his successes their he gets pluses from me in that regard. However, they are both thought of as smart QB's who can anticipate, we just don't have a lot of film on Marcus demonstrating such.

 

Like I said, I'm not going to get pissed on us drafting a guy who is a consensus top pick at QB early (or moving up to get him). I'd be pissed if we moved up for any other position or took someone like Hundley @ 7. Taking Marcus is more akin to any team who takes the top QB on the board early (and one who is the #1 pick if Winston isn't in this draft).

I dont like moving up for any of these QB's to be honest. Im not sure any of them are that quality. I'd rather draft other positions of need.

[Chisoxfn]

This is one of the more positive articles I have found on Mariota. And its really not THAT positive.

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000040...n-remind-you-of

 

Executive 1: Colin Kaepernick

"The easy answer is Kaepernick. Both have rare speed and were unpolished passers. Both were great kids coming out of college."

 

Executive 2: Robert Griffin III

"This is a tough one. At the same point in their careers, I'd say RGIII. They have similar arm strengths, and an ability to run, escape and extend plays."

 

Executive 3: Colin Kaepernick

"He reminds me of Kaepernick, but Colin is bigger and strong than Mariota. I think Mariota might be a little bit faster."

 

Executive 4: Colin Kaepernick

"He reminds me of Kaepernick, but with better instincts and a little less arm."

 

Executive 5: Sam Bradford

"He's a more athletic version of Sam Bradford."

 

Conclusion: The more I think of it, the comparison that caught my eye was Bradford. There are a lot of similarities. Personally, I thought Bradford was more a accurate passer in college than Mariota.

None of those comments concern me. Bradford (pre injury) was looking like a guy with major upside at the QB position (people forget his early success). And Kap has won more playoff games than Cutler. The cliche thing is to bag on Kap but I'd rather have Kap right now than Cutler. Kap is a toolsheed who is still developing (vs. Jay the toolshed who is what he is at this point). We'd be a better football team with Colin Kaepernick than Jay Cutler, imo. And RG III, pre injury was explosive to the point that some people would have taken him over Luck.

[maggsmaggs]

First, I don't think the Bears could actually move from #7 to #2 just by trading Cutler. But regardless, if that is the deal, I would do it without hesitation and then trade the #2 pick to get more picks unless Winston slipped to No. 2. While Mariotti has unique skills, we have seen what type of QB constantly gets his team in the playoffs and that is your prototypical pocket QB. The best QBs of the last decade has been undeniably: Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees and probably Rivers rounding out the top five. The best QBs are the pocket QBs, and that is what the Bears need. IMO, Winston can be that guy, Mariotti cannot.

[RockRaines]

First, I don't think the Bears could actually move from #7 to #2 just by trading Cutler. But regardless, if that is the deal, I would do it without hesitation and then trade the #2 pick to get more picks unless Winston slipped to No. 2. While Mariotti has unique skills, we have seen what type of QB constantly gets his team in the playoffs and that is your prototypical pocket QB. The best QBs of the last decade has been undeniably: Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees and probably Rivers rounding out the top five. The best QBs are the pocket QBs, and that is what the Bears need. IMO, Winston can be that guy, Mariotti cannot.

One of those QB's is not like the others.....

[Chisoxfn]

One of those QB's is not like the others.....

Rivers shouldn't be on that list.

[RockRaines]

Rivers shouldn't be on that list.

I'm a homer but there is a 2 time super bowl champ I would put ahead of Rivers.