Job Thread

[Bob Sacamano]

37 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

I really think there's a complete cultural difference going on right now. You have to realize that most younger people don't take their jobs very seriously, because they believe themselves to be disposable parts. There's this idea that if a company is always looking to find someone to do your job, for less salary/wage than you, and if they find that person you're gone tomorrow. Young people feel zero loyalty to a company. A lot of this Corporate America brought upon themselves. You can't continue to treat your employees like machines and garbage and continue to expect them to behave professionally. Corporate America needs to take some responsibility for this by creating this type of workplace culture. Most younger people view their job as a paycheck now and nothing more. Anything that happens outside of work is more of "real life" now. 

There are a lot of unrealistic expectations by employers these days. Maybe if your company shows that they appreciate your time, energy and effort, they'll get some semblance of respect. The big thing is nobody expects anything from their job, and they're always looking to go take the next job that pays more, because they feel no loyalty from their company. For god sakes they're not even willing to invest in training a new employee anymore. You're just expected to "sink or swim" People are disconnected because of the physical and emotional toll that takes on your body. 

Any sense of loyalty to an organization has been culturally destroyed in the workplace. Corporate America only has themselves to blame. Maybe if they quit treating their employees like meat, they'd have what they're looking for. I actually think the bosses and corporate culture creators are in the wrong here. You want me to take you seriously? Take my career seriously. This shouldn't be a 1-way street. This is why people are pissed. There is zero dignity in work anymore. It's really hard to take pride in your work when you're constantly being abused by your employer. Every job I've ever had, except for the one with the QA company, I've felt like a person in an abusive relationship, who can't escape because you have nowhere to go. Maybe CA should think about that. 

Just my opinion. 

Holding a job should not feel like living in a totalitarian dictatorship. 

I'm not really sure about this. Definitely a sense of entitlement in the millenial generation, though.

[Jack Parkman]

1 hour ago, soxfan2014 said:

I'm not really sure about this. Definitely a sense of entitlement in the millenial generation, though.

You're pointing the entitlement in the wrong direction. I don't think millennials have an entitlement problem, I think HR departments, and the remainder of Corporate America does. It's all projection. They're complaining  because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions. Maybe create a family environment and stop squeezing employees for every bit of time and money possible. Happy employees are more productive. This is fact. If you're under stress constantly, it doesn't motivate you, it makes it harder to do your job, contrary to popular belief. 

All of you people who think that can cry me a fucking river until their company brings back dignity at work. Its really hard to take pride and have a good attitude when you feel like meat. Maybe people need to look into the mirror instead of saying "That's just how life works" It doesn't have to be that way. Corporations have nobody to blame but themselves. This is all the result of excessive greed at the top. 

Take a look in the mirror. Ask yourself who has the entitlement problem. It might be YOU. 

If you're not acknowledging the challenges younger people have in gaining and maintaining employment, you might have the entitlement problem. If you're not giving your employees all of the tools necessary to do their job at a high level, you might be entitled. If you're not investing in college grads because they're too green, you might be entitled. If your HR dept. has a skills requirement list 20 items long on a job description they might be entitled. 

I have a wee bit of resentment against previous generations because we had a great economic system in this country and Boomers and Gen Xers let the modern day Robber Barons destroy it. Every generation they're taking more and more rights away and now employees might as well have the relationship of slave to their employer's master.  Every time they took benefits away nobody ever put up a fight. These are the consequences of those choices. Just look in the mirror. You took all of the advantages people had and flushed them down the crapper, by being complacent. Now us younger people have to fight just to get back to where we were in the 60s and 70s. It might take two or three generations to undo the damage that has been done. 

I believe anyone who points the finger at Millennials, has an entitlement problem themselves. They're not entitled, YOU ARE!

Edited August 8, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Chicago White Sox]

2 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I really think there's a complete cultural difference going on right now. You have to realize that most younger people don't take their jobs very seriously, because they believe themselves to be disposable parts. There's this idea that if a company is always looking to find someone to do your job, for less salary/wage than you, and if they find that person you're gone tomorrow. Young people feel zero loyalty to a company. A lot of this Corporate America brought upon themselves. You can't continue to treat your employees like machines and garbage and continue to expect them to behave professionally. Corporate America needs to take some responsibility for this by creating this type of workplace culture. Most younger people view their job as a paycheck now and nothing more. Anything that happens outside of work is more of "real life" now. 

There are a lot of unrealistic expectations by employers these days. Maybe if your company shows that they appreciate your time, energy and effort, they'll get some semblance of respect. The big thing is nobody expects anything from their job, and they're always looking to go take the next job that pays more, because they feel no loyalty from their company. For god sakes they're not even willing to invest in training a new employee anymore. You're just expected to "sink or swim" People are disconnected because of the physical and emotional toll that takes on your body. 

Any sense of loyalty to an organization has been culturally destroyed in the workplace. Corporate America only has themselves to blame. Maybe if they quit treating their employees like meat, they'd have what they're looking for. I actually think the bosses and corporate culture creators are in the wrong here. You want me to take you seriously? Take my career seriously. This shouldn't be a 1-way street. This is why people are pissed. There is zero dignity in work anymore. It's really hard to take pride in your work when you're constantly being abused by your employer. Every job I've ever had, except for the one with the QA company, I've felt like a person in an abusive relationship, who can't escape because you have nowhere to go. Maybe CA should think about that. 

Just my opinion. 

Holding a job should not feel like living in a totalitarian dictatorship. 

You’re really confusing your job experiences to those of the rest of America.

[Jack Parkman]

47 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

You’re really confusing your job experiences to those of the rest of America.

I talk to other people. Almost everyone I know has dealt with this type of behavior in some way or another. I talk to people about it. This is normal from what I gather, Especially from people under 35. This is the type of thing I expect. I know people who had bosses who picked one employee each year to completely humiliate until they quit. I know people who routinely get ripped off from their sales commissions. One place this person worked they had to get a lawyer in order to get their commission after they left the company. I know people whose kipboss refuses to allow them to schedule a vacation unless it's convenient for them. I've heard countless stories like this. I know a person whose boss routinely doesn't give their employees things necessary for their job, like a work computer or even information about the product they're supposed to sell. They're expected to pay for these things out of pocket. I hear of people who are expected to be on call 24/7 and be ready for work, even if on vacation. From my understanding, these things are common. The most egregious thing is that once you get past a certain salary range they'll make any excuse to fire you or lay you off. I knew a guy with a Master's in electrical engineering who got laid off in 2008 when he was in his late 40s and never got another job. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[greg775]

22 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

I talk to other people. Almost everyone I know has dealt with this type of behavior in some way or another. I talk to people about it. This is normal from what I gather, Especially from people under 35. This is the type of thing I expect. I know people who had bosses who picked one employee each year to completely humiliate until they quit. I know people who routinely get ripped off from their sales commissions. One place this person worked they had to get a lawyer in order to get their commission after they left the company. I know people whose kipboss refuses to allow them to schedule a vacation unless it's convenient for them. I've heard countless stories like this. I know a person whose boss routinely doesn't give their employees things necessary for their job, like a work computer or even information about the product they're supposed to sell. They're expected to pay for these things out of pocket. I hear of people who are expected to be on call 24/7 and be ready for work, even if on vacation. From my understanding, these things are common. The most egregious thing is that once you get past a certain salary range they'll make any excuse to fire you or lay you off. I knew a guy with a Master's in electrical engineering who got laid off in 2008 when he was in his late 40s and never got another job. 

I tend to agree more than disagree with your rash of posts in here on this topic. It all boils down to this: I'm not sure where the American workplace became a place in which the man/woman at the top, the CEO, makes 12 to 20 million dollars a year and everybody else makes pennies so to speak and told they are "lucky they have a job." Anyhow, these CEOs simply are not worth the kind of jack they are making and the little guy so to speak should not be paid so little and terrorized daily on the job by supervisors who are scared to death of the CEOs.

In short ... CEO's making way too much; corporate little guys/gals are making way too little and are being terrorized. HR departments are a joke; they are there primarily to prevent management from getting sued. Just my opinion. interesting posts, Jack.

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, greg775 said:

I tend to agree more than disagree with your rash of posts in here on this topic. It all boils down to this: I'm not sure where the American workplace became a place in which the man/woman at the top, the CEO, makes 12 to 20 million dollars a year and everybody else makes pennies so to speak and told they are "lucky they have a job." Anyhow, these CEOs simply are not worth the kind of jack they are making and the little guy so to speak should not be paid so little and terrorized daily on the job by supervisors who are scared to death of the CEOs.

In short ... CEO's making way too much; corporate little guys/gals are making way too little and are being terrorized. HR departments are a joke; they are there primarily to prevent management from getting sued. Just my opinion. interesting posts, Jack.

This is the type of thing I hear every day. Great to hear I'm not way off base. People are afraid to b**** about it.  They're told to shut up because they're lucky to even have a job. I can't believe that there was ever a time where people were so lazy at work that they needed to go this far in the other direction. 

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[BackDoorBreach]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:59 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I talk to other people. Almost everyone I know has dealt with this type of behavior in some way or another. I talk to people about it. This is normal from what I gather, Especially from people under 35. This is the type of thing I expect. I know people who had bosses who picked one employee each year to completely humiliate until they quit. I know people who routinely get ripped off from their sales commissions. One place this person worked they had to get a lawyer in order to get their commission after they left the company. I know people whose kipboss refuses to allow them to schedule a vacation unless it's convenient for them. I've heard countless stories like this. I know a person whose boss routinely doesn't give their employees things necessary for their job, like a work computer or even information about the product they're supposed to sell. They're expected to pay for these things out of pocket. I hear of people who are expected to be on call 24/7 and be ready for work, even if on vacation. From my understanding, these things are common. The most egregious thing is that once you get past a certain salary range they'll make any excuse to fire you or lay you off. I knew a guy with a Master's in electrical engineering who got laid off in 2008 when he was in his late 40s and never got another job. 

These things you are listing aren't exactly normal.  I am on call 24/7 365 but I am in a completely different line of work.  You also can't just fire people in most places for the funsies, there has to be some type documentation before that or you are looking for a lawsuit and EEOC violations.

 

Would I agree with you that a lot of places push their employees too much?  Yeah, I would, but most of what you are describing isn't really true.  Maybe the stories you heard were people intentionally leaving out important pieces?  

 

 

Edited August 9, 2019 by BackDoorBreach

[Chicago White Sox]

21 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

This is the type of thing I hear every day. Great to hear I'm not way off base. People are afraid to b**** about it.  They're told to shut up because they're lucky to even have a job. I can't believe that there was ever a time where people were so lazy at work that they needed to go this far in the other direction. 

lol...you know you’re nuts when you use Greg to confirm your macro suspicions.

[Bob Sacamano]

On 8/9/2019 at 5:06 PM, Chicago White Sox said:

lol...you know you’re nuts when you use Greg to confirm your macro suspicions.

Lol

[The Sir]

On 8/7/2019 at 5:10 PM, Jack Parkman said:

I really think there's a complete cultural difference going on right now. You have to realize that most younger people don't take their jobs very seriously, because they believe themselves to be disposable parts. There's this idea that if a company is always looking to find someone to do your job, for less salary/wage than you, and if they find that person you're gone tomorrow. Young people feel zero loyalty to a company. A lot of this Corporate America brought upon themselves. You can't continue to treat your employees like machines and garbage and continue to expect them to behave professionally. Corporate America needs to take some responsibility for this by creating this type of workplace culture. Most younger people view their job as a paycheck now and nothing more. Anything that happens outside of work is more of "real life" now. 

There are a lot of unrealistic expectations by employers these days. Maybe if your company shows that they appreciate your time, energy and effort, they'll get some semblance of respect. The big thing is nobody expects anything from their job, and they're always looking to go take the next job that pays more, because they feel no loyalty from their company. For god sakes they're not even willing to invest in training a new employee anymore. You're just expected to "sink or swim" People are disconnected because of the physical and emotional toll that takes on your body. 

Any sense of loyalty to an organization has been culturally destroyed in the workplace. Corporate America only has themselves to blame. Maybe if they quit treating their employees like meat, they'd have what they're looking for. I actually think the bosses and corporate culture creators are in the wrong here. You want me to take you seriously? Take my career seriously. This shouldn't be a 1-way street. This is why people are pissed. There is zero dignity in work anymore. It's really hard to take pride in your work when you're constantly being abused by your employer. Every job I've ever had, except for the one with the QA company, I've felt like a person in an abusive relationship, who can't escape because you have nowhere to go. Maybe CA should think about that. 

Just my opinion. 

Holding a job should not feel like living in a totalitarian dictatorship. 

Geez. First off, I don't think you know what living in a totalitarian dictatorship is like if you think not being praised at work is at all analogous.

Second, a job is a transaction. Your employer gives you a paycheck in exchange for work. If you do well, they give you a bigger paycheck! Soxfan2014 is right in his reply that there is a sense of entitlement in the younger generation. Nobody's going to give or even owes you mad props just because you exist and show up every day.

This is a really dopey argument. How exactly do you want them to take your career seriously? You know who needs to take your career seriously? You. Nobody else. A company isn't a charity- it exists for some specific purpose. If you don't help to accomplish that purpose, then you ARE disposable.

[Jack Parkman]

21 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Geez. First off, I don't think you know what living in a totalitarian dictatorship is like if you think not being praised at work is at all analogous.

Second, a job is a transaction. Your employer gives you a paycheck in exchange for work. If you do well, they give you a bigger paycheck! Soxfan2014 is right in his reply that there is a sense of entitlement in the younger generation. Nobody's going to give or even owes you mad props just because you exist and show up every day.

This is a really dopey argument. How exactly do you want them to take your career seriously? You know who needs to take your career seriously? You. Nobody else. A company isn't a charity- it exists for some specific purpose. If you don't help to accomplish that purpose, then you ARE disposable.

Actually take the time to show me the ropes. Invest in your employees, and don't discard them whenever convenient. I'd rather take a 10% pay cut than lose my entire paycheck. Also, a company has more social and societal responsibilities than simply producing goods and services for a profit. They have the responsibility to create skilled labor and new products and jobs. Somewhere along the line people have stopped holding corporate America responsible for their responsibilities and have shifted all of them onto the individual. No wonder it's harder to get ahead and life is more stressful! 

It is the company's responsibility to give their employees everything they need to be successful in their role. College and other outside training programs can only do so much. At some point there has to be on-the-job training and mentoring. This whole sink or swim approach is literally psychological abuse. One shouldn't have to freak out every day that they don't have everything that they need to do their job, including information. While there's a lot of stuff on the internet, it cannot and should not replace training and mentoring. And sometimes, answers aren't available there either. 

I don't think that not being praised at work is analogous. I do think that people having to choose between their career and any sort of happiness outside of work is.  

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:27 PM, Jack Parkman said:

You're pointing the entitlement in the wrong direction. I don't think millennials have an entitlement problem, I think HR departments, and the remainder of Corporate America does. It's all projection. They're complaining  because they don't want to deal with the consequences of their actions. Maybe create a family environment and stop squeezing employees for every bit of time and money possible. Happy employees are more productive. This is fact. If you're under stress constantly, it doesn't motivate you, it makes it harder to do your job, contrary to popular belief. 

All of you people who think that can cry me a fucking river until their company brings back dignity at work. Its really hard to take pride and have a good attitude when you feel like meat. Maybe people need to look into the mirror instead of saying "That's just how life works" It doesn't have to be that way. Corporations have nobody to blame but themselves. This is all the result of excessive greed at the top. 

Take a look in the mirror. Ask yourself who has the entitlement problem. It might be YOU. 

If you're not acknowledging the challenges younger people have in gaining and maintaining employment, you might have the entitlement problem. If you're not giving your employees all of the tools necessary to do their job at a high level, you might be entitled. If you're not investing in college grads because they're too green, you might be entitled. If your HR dept. has a skills requirement list 20 items long on a job description they might be entitled. 

I have a wee bit of resentment against previous generations because we had a great economic system in this country and Boomers and Gen Xers let the modern day Robber Barons destroy it. Every generation they're taking more and more rights away and now employees might as well have the relationship of slave to their employer's master.  Every time they took benefits away nobody ever put up a fight. These are the consequences of those choices. Just look in the mirror. You took all of the advantages people had and flushed them down the crapper, by being complacent. Now us younger people have to fight just to get back to where we were in the 60s and 70s. It might take two or three generations to undo the damage that has been done. 

I believe anyone who points the finger at Millennials, has an entitlement problem themselves. They're not entitled, YOU ARE!

Create a family environment? Stop squeezing employees for every bit of time and money possible? How should I do this?

I command about 150 US Army Soldiers. We have a mission, and the mission always comes first. I can remove a Soldier from this mission at any time, and I have done so on numerous occasions when their presence was no longer conducive to mission accomplishment (money isn't a factor since I'm not managing the budget).

That said, I do care about my Soldiers and I do look out for their well-being as much as I can. I brought a young man in the other day to tell him that we were moving him to a new location about fifty miles distant (the other location had the need). He protested, and rather than just force him to move (which I could have done), I looked for and found someone else. I go and talk to my Soldiers constantly (which isn't easy, because they're spread over hundreds of square miles) and try to interact with them on as personal of a level as I can. I want them to know that I care about them and want the best for them.

But the mission is always foremost. I will stop at nothing to uphold good order and discipline, to maintain Army standards, and to ensure that our job is done to the level it needs to be done, and if that means kicking someone out, I absolutely will. I've had Soldiers plead with me when they are informed of their removal. One guy told me his wife was sick and they therefore needed the money (which was interesting, because I was firing him for borderline sexual harassment of other females). I had to reinforce to him that I wasn't running a charity and his behavior was besmirching our organization.

The point is, the job comes first. There is a mission. That is the purpose of all this. That is the point of my existence and my Soldiers' existences here. I make good money here, but if I stop being good at what I do, it'll be the end of me. You can and should, as an employer, show care for your employees, but don't forget what the point is.

[Jack Parkman]

12 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Create a family environment? Stop squeezing employees for every bit of time and money possible? How should I do this?

I command about 150 US Army Soldiers. We have a mission, and the mission always comes first. I can remove a Soldier from this mission at any time, and I have done so on numerous occasions when their presence was no longer conducive to mission accomplishment (money isn't a factor since I'm not managing the budget).

That said, I do care about my Soldiers and I do look out for their well-being as much as I can. I brought a young man in the other day to tell him that we were moving him to a new location about fifty miles distant (the other location had the need). He protested, and rather than just force him to move (which I could have done), I looked for and found someone else. I go and talk to my Soldiers constantly (which isn't easy, because they're spread over hundreds of square miles) and try to interact with them on as personal of a level as I can. I want them to know that I care about them and want the best for them.

But the mission is always foremost. I will stop at nothing to uphold good order and discipline, to maintain Army standards, and to ensure that our job is done to the level it needs to be done, and if that means kicking someone out, I absolutely will. I've had Soldiers plead with me when they are informed of their removal. One guy told me his wife was sick and they therefore needed the money (which was interesting, because I was firing him for borderline sexual harassment of other females). I had to reinforce to him that I wasn't running a charity and his behavior was besmirching our organization.

The point is, the job comes first. There is a mission. That is the purpose of all this. That is the point of my existence and my Soldiers' existences here. I make good money here, but if I stop being good at what I do, it'll be the end of me. You can and should, as an employer, show care for your employees, but don't forget what the point is.

The military =/= everyone else. Things work differently there. Military life and civilian life are two entirely different things. Everything I said earlier does not apply to the military. Thanks for chiming in, but if your adult life has been entirely in the army I get a lot of where you're coming from. Thie military is  a dictatorship. You have to know that when you sign up. Even though I haven't served myself, because I couldn't even if I wanted to, I have known a lot of people who have, including some who went to West Point. I understand it about as well as a civilian possibly can. My godfather was in the Navy for a very long time. I understand how it works. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

17 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Actually take the time to show me the ropes. Invest in your employees, and don't discard them whenever convenient. I'd rather take a 10% pay cut than lose my entire paycheck. Also, a company has more social and societal responsibilities than simply producing goods and services for a profit. They have the responsibility to create skilled labor and new products and jobs. Somewhere along the line people have stopped holding corporate America responsible for their responsibilities and have shifted all of them onto the individual. No wonder it's harder to get ahead and life is more stressful! 

It is the company's responsibility to give their employees everything they need to be successful in their role. College and other outside training programs can only do so much. At some point there has to be on-the-job training and mentoring. This whole sink or swim approach is literally psychological abuse. One shouldn't have to freak out every day that they don't have everything that they need to do their job, including information. While there's a lot of stuff on the internet, it cannot and should not replace training and mentoring. And sometimes, answers aren't available there either. 

I don't think that not being praised at work is analogous. I do think that people having to choose between their career and any sort of happiness outside of work is.  

No, they don't have that responsibility. Skilled labor and jobs are side benefits to creating a company. And the market will decide if it wants the products that are being created; no profit will exist without this consent.

I'm in the process of starting a business. Without being too specific, I'm going to expand to a certain level and, until then, I will handle everything myself. I'll be the sole employee and the workload should roughly fill a 40 hour work week (more sales does mean more work, and if that's the case, I might find my first employee(s) sooner than expected). Anyways, when I get to the "expansion point", I'll hire employees to handle the extra work as necessary. I'll eventually pass off my original work as well, so that I can focus entirely on management of the whole apparatus, and little to none of the labor. I will train my new employees because I don't know how they (and by extension, my company) would be successful without this. I'll mentor them too, and I would like to offer a solid and meritocratic benefits package so that the opportunity is attractive to talented individuals. But if they can't handle it, it's counterproductive to just lessen their paycheck (because I'll have to pay someone else to pick up the slack). Ultimately, if they cannot contribute to accomplishment of the mission, just like in the military, my goal will be to terminate their employment.

I will create jobs that will help other people, but those will be indirect benefits of my efforts. The primary goal of my efforts will be to make money by selling products.

[Jack Parkman]

17 minutes ago, The Sir said:

No, they don't have that responsibility. Skilled labor and jobs are side benefits to creating a company. And the market will decide if it wants the products that are being created; no profit will exist without this consent.

I'm in the process of starting a business. Without being too specific, I'm going to expand to a certain level and, until then, I will handle everything myself. I'll be the sole employee and the workload should roughly fill a 40 hour work week (more sales does mean more work, and if that's the case, I might find my first employee(s) sooner than expected). Anyways, when I get to the "expansion point", I'll hire employees to handle the extra work as necessary. I'll eventually pass off my original work as well, so that I can focus entirely on management of the whole apparatus, and little to none of the labor. I will train my new employees because I don't know how they (and by extension, my company) would be successful without this. I'll mentor them too, and I would like to offer a solid and meritocratic benefits package so that the opportunity is attractive to talented individuals. But if they can't handle it, it's counterproductive to just lessen their paycheck (because I'll have to pay someone else to pick up the slack). Ultimately, if they cannot contribute to accomplishment of the mission, just like in the military, my goal will be to terminate their employment.

I will create jobs that will help other people, but those will be indirect benefits of my efforts. The primary goal of my efforts will be to make money by selling products.

The whole difference in our opinion lies from the belief in meritocracy. You believe that is truly how the world works. I don't. Anyone who believes that is naive. That is an idealistic excuse from those in power to shift responsibility off of them and onto the populace. 

The world isn't a meritocracy. It's a good old boys club. It's not what you know, it's who you blow. You can't even get a decent first job without having someone to advocate for you. Again, you're in the military where everything actually works that way. It doesn't outside of there. Working hard might keep you employed, but it won't advance your career. You have to schmooze people to actually get that done. 

That's why I struggle out there. As an autistic person, i don't have those skills. The world isn't built for me, it's built to exclude me. I wish the world was actually a fucking meritocracy because I've worked harder and overcome more obstacles just to get to this point than a the majority of people. If you knew me, you'd understand. That's why it bothers me so much, and that's why  I work to expose it. I've paid my dues. 

I just want dignity. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

22 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The military =/= everyone else. Things work differently there. Military life and civilian life are two entirely different things. Everything I said earlier does not apply to the military. Thanks for chiming in, but if your adult life has been entirely in the army I get a lot of where you're coming from. Thie military is  a dictatorship. You have to know that when you sign up. Even though I haven't served myself, because I couldn't even if I wanted to, I have known a lot of people who have, including some who went to West Point. I understand it about as well as a civilian possibly can. My godfather was in the Navy for a very long time. I understand how it works. 

Little bit grating, Jack. My parents were both in the Navy and that directly affected how I grew up, but I didn't truly understand how it all worked until I was in the fray. Thank your godfather for his service for me, genuinely, but don't overestimate your own knowledge of the situation. And don't discredit my overall advice about leadership.

The military is a dictatorship in that you can't just stop showing up whenever like you can at Pizza Hut, and flipping out on me comes with more serious consequences than flipping out on your civilian manager, but tenets of leadership are still similar. A Soldier might have a longer obligation that he has to meet, but we'll want to retain him after that, and to do that, we have to keep him happy. If all my Soldiers get to the ends of their contracts and show no interest in reenlisting, the people above me are going to ask me some uncomfortable questions. It's not WWII anymore, where I could give an outrageous order to who-the-fuck-ever, and then threaten to have them shot when they objected.

I do have to find ways to keep my "employees" happy while still putting mission accomplishment at the top. In that aspect, it does provide a decent comparison with the corporate world.

[BackDoorBreach]

3 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The whole difference in our opinion lies from the belief in meritocracy. You believe that is truly how the world works. I don't. Anyone who believes that is naive. That is an idealistic excuse from those in power to shift responsibility off of them and onto the populace. 

The world isn't a meritocracy. It's a good old boys club. It's not what you know, it's who you blow. You can't even get a decent first job without having someone to advocate for you. Again, you're in the military where everything actually works that way. It doesn't outside of there. 

I'm not in the military and I can tell you that you are not correct.  A huge majority of jobs hire the most qualified applicants outside of different hiring practices.  

 

Also to your comment about companies having a higher societal or social responsibility over profit is wrong.  That is the entire purpose of a business Jack.  At the end of the day they really don't care about you, nor should they really. 

[Jack Parkman]

3 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Little bit grating, Jack. My parents were both in the Navy and that directly affected how I grew up, but I didn't truly understand how it all worked until I was in the fray. Thank your godfather for his service for me, genuinely, but don't overestimate your own knowledge of the situation. And don't discredit my overall advice about leadership.

The military is a dictatorship in that you can't just stop showing up whenever like you can at Pizza Hut, and flipping out on me comes with more serious consequences than flipping out on your civilian manager, but tenets of leadership are still similar. A Soldier might have a longer obligation that he has to meet, but we'll want to retain him after that, and to do that, we have to keep him happy. If all my Soldiers get to the ends of their contracts and show no interest in reenlisting, the people above me are going to ask me some uncomfortable questions. It's not WWII anymore, where I could give an outrageous order to who-the-fuck-ever, and then threaten to have them shot when they objected.

I do have to find ways to keep my "employees" happy while still putting mission accomplishment at the top. In that aspect, it does provide a decent comparison with the corporate world.

I never claimed to know everything, but I do know a lot. 

[Jack Parkman]

7 minutes ago, BackDoorBreach said:

I'm not in the military and I can tell you that you are not correct.  A huge majority of jobs hire the most qualified applicants outside of different hiring practices.  

 

Also to your comment about companies having a higher societal or social responsibility over profit is wrong.  That is the entire purpose of a business Jack.  At the end of the day they really don't care about you, nor should they really. 

It's not the business's job to maintain that social/societal responsibility. That's the government's job. That's why people died fighting for labor rights. It's the government's job to keep a close eye on CA and remind them that they can't go too far. The Government has abdicated that responsibility for 40 years. CA has gone too far. I'm stopping right now before this delves into politics. Forgive me for not being clear about that. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

The whole difference in our opinion lies from the belief in meritocracy. You believe that is truly how the world works. I don't. Anyone who believes that is naive. That is an idealistic excuse from those in power to shift responsibility off of them and onto the populace. 

The world isn't a meritocracy. It's a good old boys club. It's not what you know, it's who you blow. You can't even get a decent first job without having someone to advocate for you. Again, you're in the military where everything actually works that way. It doesn't outside of there. 

If you really think you'd work your ass off and put together phenomenal products and not reap any benefit from it at all, you need a new job. That's not normal. There will always be some element of who-knows-who, because people trust people they know and have histories with, but that shouldn't be it entirely.

My civilian side job is like this. My wife got an interview primarily because her own father is a local legend in the field. She still showed her chops, and they loved her. Dad's name got her in the door but she finished the deal on her own. Because of that, her new boss called the person who would become my boss and got me an interview. I nailed it and got the job. Person who hired me got shitcanned a week later. New boss, who knew nothing about my family connections at all, recommended me for a prestigious master's program and gave me increased responsibilities and leadership roles over time because I showed how capable I was.

The good ol' boys club might have helped, but I did plenty to increase my standing on my own as well. It's a mix. And just curious, how would you recommend adjusting human nature to combat this tendency?

[Jack Parkman]

32 minutes ago, Tony said:

This is where you lose people, if you haven’t already. I had 4 separate six month internships during and after college, which lead to my first job. Stayed in that job for about 5 years, and my next move was solely based on my hard work and background, nothing was given to me.

If you’ve had bad experiences, fine. That sucks, and I’m sorry about that, really. But you’re incredibly naive and honestly really selfish to think because it happened to you, that’s how it is out in the world for everyone. You’re wrong. 

Tony, I like your posts, but I gave examples of people that I speak with who have also had a rough time of it. I told you that it's not just me, but you're ignoring that. I talk to a lot of people. I don't meet people who have had positive experiences at work often. I do run into them, but I've found them to be the exception rather than the rule. I've found it to be an 80/20 rule. 80% of jobs suck. If you've found the 20%, you should consider yourself fairly fortunate. 

 

I'm happy for you guys on here who've had good experiences at work. I don't think that you realize how lucky and blessed you are. 

I already know my own experiences are abnormal and when I talk about this I refer solely to the experiences of others I speak with. None of these experiences are my own. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[The Sir]

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

That's why I struggle out there. As an autistic person, i don't have those skills. The world isn't built for me, it's built to exclude me. I wish the world was actually a fucking meritocracy because I've worked harder and overcome more obstacles just to get to this point than a the majority of people. If you knew me, you'd understand. That's why it bothers me so much, and that's why  I work to expose it. I've paid my dues. 

I just want dignity. 

Honestly, this statement bugs the heck out of me. How do you know what other people have been through or how hard they've worked? I went to middle school in a foreign country where I got in fights every single day. I went from being a meek, passive sixth grader to being a hyperaggressive asshole by the time I showed up in high school. I spent the first nine months of my marriage in Afghanistan. I've spent the last fifteen months away from my wife and kids, except for a few weekends, to handle this mission I've been assigned. I've dealt with and overcome clinical depression.

And to that I say, so what? This doesn't make me special. None of this makes me unique. Every person on this board and on this planet could give you a list of things that they've battled and overcome, but very few of them define themselves by those experiences. Struggle is part of life, man; stop assuming that the universe just deigned to give you an especially shitty hand.

Not only are you spitting on other people's experiences, but you're discounting your own as well. You're more than just an autistic dude- you are a complete human being. You demand that employers give you respect on that level, but I don't think I've ever seen you give that respect to yourself. You are much more than a "disability" and an intelligence level. Do you think perhaps that attitude rubs off on the people around you and perhaps changes the ways they approach you? Consider it.

[The Sir]

13 minutes ago, Jack Parkman said:

Tony, I like your posts, but I gave examples of people that I speak with who have also had a rough time of it. I told you that it's not just me, but you're ignoring that. I talk to a lot of people. I don't meet people who have had positive experiences at work often. I do run into them, but I've found them to be the exception rather than the rule. I've found it to be an 80/20 rule. 80% of jobs suck. If you've found the 20%, you should consider yourself fairly fortunate. 

 

I'm happy for you guys on here who've had good experiences at work. I don't think that you realize how lucky and blessed you are. 

Why would he have paid much attention to that? You gave a number of vague anecdotes from an indeterminate number of people who had crappy work experiences and then formulated an 80/20 rule, and you want us to address that seriously? The most specific account you gave was your friend with a master's who never got a job after 2008. Why not? Did he starve? If not, I guess he didn't need it too bad. Unemployment is ridiculously low right now, he surely could have gotten a new job if he actually wanted one.

Yeah, dude, some people hate their jobs. You have no rational basis for throwing out some ridiculous number and telling us statistically how lucky we are if we don't despise our workplaces.

[Jack Parkman]

42 minutes ago, The Sir said:

Honestly, this statement bugs the heck out of me. How do you know what other people have been through or how hard they've worked? I went to middle school in a foreign country where I got in fights every single day. I went from being a meek, passive sixth grader to being a hyperaggressive asshole by the time I showed up in high school. I spent the first nine months of my marriage in Afghanistan. I've spent the last fifteen months away from my wife and kids, except for a few weekends, to handle this mission I've been assigned. I've dealt with and overcome clinical depression.

And to that I say, so what? This doesn't make me special. None of this makes me unique. Every person on this board and on this planet could give you a list of things that they've battled and overcome, but very few of them define themselves by those experiences. Struggle is part of life, man; stop assuming that the universe just deigned to give you an especially shitty hand.

Not only are you spitting on other people's experiences, but you're discounting your own as well. You're more than just an autistic dude- you are a complete human being. You demand that employers give you respect on that level, but I don't think I've ever seen you give that respect to yourself. You are much more than a "disability" and an intelligence level. Do you think perhaps that attitude rubs off on the people around you and perhaps changes the ways they approach you? Consider it.

Forgive me for being especially bitter. I've dealt with all of the things you have as a child and then some. Dude I didn't have much of a childhood. I spent most of it going in and out of therapy, going to from psychiatrist to psychiatrist trying to figure out wtf was wrong, having my brain chemistry fucked with constantly going in and out of hospitals because the drugs that the gave me made things worse instead of better, there were some that made me hyper aggressive and some that made me a zombie. I've battled major depressive episodes, multiple suicide attempts, and countless other shit. All before I got to high school. So forgive me about  saying I've gone through a lot. I finally got iy shit under control, mostly because of dumb luck with meds, by my sophomore year in HS. I didn't get diagnosed with autism until shortly before my 18th birthday. I've had severe foot pain that has prevented me from holding low-level jobs. I can't stand up for more two hours without being in severe pain for a week. I'm recovering from my 2nd foot surgery as we speak. 

Every bit of work I've had to put in on adapting to the world I've done over the last 10 years or so. It's a daily struggle just existing. Don't fucking tell me I haven't gone through hell. 

I hope I can get someone to look past my issues one day, and see me for the awesome guy I know I am. The semi-arrogance and bitterness are my motivating factor. I want to prove to everyone that said I was a lost cause that I can make it in the world. I know what my responsibility is, and that is to adapt to the world around me as best as I can. I continue to learn, gain info, and fight like hell for every opportunity. And if I fail, move on and take the lessons to the next one. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman

[Jack Parkman]

52 minutes ago, Tony said:

Then likewise, don’t tell everyone else on here you’ve worked harder then most, and life is just terribly unfair, we should all be so lucky. 

No, I worked my ass off for where I am, as did many of my friends, and many people who post here. Don’t make sweeping accusations based on “People you talk to” 

An no offense Jack, but based on what you’ve told us about how many struggles you had, how jaded you are, how you struggle to talk to people, along with having your two best friends be out in the open racists, I’m not sure I trust your “inner circle” to really give you the best advice or have the best world view. Calling it like I see it. 

This isn't coming from my inner circle either. I don't blame you for thinking that. 

I really don't know who to trust for advice on getting along in the workplace. There is one person I trust more than anyone else. Most of the people in my "inner circle" haven't looked for jobs for years. 

After College, I went to everyone I trusted at the time for advice and tried to get as much information as I could. None of it worked for me. 

Btw, those two guys were the only ones in my group with that type of worldview. I met them through a mutual friend. That mutual friend moved away and I kept hanging out with them. To be fair, I didn't know how bad they were until 2016. Trump made them more emboldened to speak that way. It wasn't often before that and I'd call them out on it. I thought bigger picture and I never took a lot of what they said seriously. I'm a completely different person than that, and I'm sad that it came to that. It's my mistake. Like I said in that thread, I was afraid to dump them because I had a really hard time socially in my younger years. I really wish I had the courage to do so sooner. 

My situation is the norm for people on the autism spectrum without an ID. I had to throw away a good job for me because I didn't take it seriously, soon enough. I got too ambitious and thought I could break in to the mainstream workforce. 

My biggest regret to this point in my life is not looking at that company as a possible career until it was far too late. 

I joined them when I wasn't ready for a real job (I'm not too proud to admit that) and messed things up way too much. By the time I was ready to take it seriously, things were too messed up. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jack Parkman