Tommy John surgery not such a sure thing

[caulfield12]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/succ...urgery-decline/

 

Paulino and Gavin Floyd mentions....makes you feel Nate Jones shouldn't be counted on for anything in 2015.

Edited March 13, 2015 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

"Although Tommy John Surgery is often effective, it isn't always so and therefore you shouldn't generalize from one case to another."

 

"Maybe Nate Jones shouldn't be counted on for anything in 2015".

[caulfield12]

"Although Tommy John Surgery is often effective, it isn't always so and therefore you shouldn't generalize from one case to another."

 

"Maybe Nate Jones shouldn't be counted on for anything in 2015".

 

 

Sure.

 

I just meant within the context of those believing or hoping he will pitch this year....the fact that relievers struggle more (according to the article)....and finally the fact you have TJ combined with back and Greg's oft-mentioned mechanical issues.

[southsider2k5]

Has anyone said they are counting on Nate Jones in 2015? I've seen people say our pen would be awesome if he were back, and that is about it.

 

Is today Soxtalk's Yelling at Windmills Day?

[Balta1701]

Has anyone said they are counting on Nate Jones in 2015? I've seen people say our pen would be awesome if he were back, and that is about it.

 

Is today Soxtalk's Yelling at Windmills Day?

It's a shame we didn't sign a closer this year to fill that gap. Or another setup man. I mean, that could cost us this season. Last year Jones getting hurt really did hurt that bullpen, if he doesn't come back I have no idea who is going to close games.

[Dick Allen]

Obviously if you pitchers have to get cut somewhere on their arm, TJ is one with at least favorable results. There are so many of these surgeries. Is there a bigger pool of surgeons? Ptac wrote, and I read where Floyd's may have been too strong moving the pressure to his elbow, and he now has fractured that twice.Hanrahan had issues, a lot of double TJ guys, there is another guy on his third. There is enough fail out there to make you hope although you will never avoid it, your best pitchers can.

[shysocks]

On topic, I'm not counting on Nate Jones in 2015, or ever again really. He'll come back and he'll either make a nice "acquisition" or he'll fade away, but the org has definitely prepared for his absence.

 

NOW EVERYBODY DRINK SOME GREEN BEER AND CHILL TF OUT.

[ptatc]

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/succ...urgery-decline/

 

Paulino and Gavin Floyd mentions....makes you feel Nate Jones shouldn't be counted on for anything in 2015.

It has more to do with the pitcher than the surgery. They usually have the surgery because of mechanical issues. Some pitchers will not change the motion because either: they believe the problem is fixed and thus don't need to or they don't believe they will be successful without that "extra movement." More and more of these guys just think that once they have surgery they are fixed and don't want to listen. No surgery is a sure thing but if they listen it has a really good chance of being fine.

 

Part of the problem with the article is they didn't really look at any correlation or causitive effects. It was only these players had it and look where they are. That is a poor way to say that the surgery isn't as effective. The surgical techniques have improve, so it's not the surgery that's less effective, it's the players and how well they rehab and change their habits.

[caulfield12]

Good "deeper critical thinking" points from ptac.

 

For what it's worth, the starter for the Rangers the other day, Asher...had TJ surgery hen he was just 14, one of the youngest examples ever.

 

http://www.lonestarball.com/2014/3/5/54634...scouting-report

See the third long paragraph...

Edited March 13, 2015 by caulfield12

[TaylorStSox]

I'm not a doctor and don't play one on the Internet. With that said, I'd be surprised if we ever saw the Nate Jones of the past again. Any time a player has Tommy John, or tears an ACL, I write them off. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'd rather be surprised than disappointed. Basically, I expect nothing from Jones going forward.

[ptatc]

I'm not a doctor and don't play one on the Internet. With that said, I'd be surprised if we ever saw the Nate Jones of the past again. Any time a player has Tommy John, or tears an ACL, I write them off. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I'd rather be surprised than disappointed. Basically, I expect nothing from Jones going forward.

You are being unrealistically pessimistic. TJ and ACL surgeries continue to have a very high rate of returning to previous level. Anyone who has these I have a very high level of confidence that they will return. I have worked with 100's of them. More ACL than TJ but almost all of them return.

 

However you are right with Jones but for the wrong reason, his back. If it wasn't for that injury he would have returned long ago. That problem came out of nowhere and is concerning. I don't know the specifics behind it but they did surgery almost as soon as it appeared. This is rare that a fairly long rehab wasn't attempted first. This is cause for concern.

[caulfield12]

You are being unrealistically pessimistic. TJ and ACL surgeries continue to have a very high rate of returning to previous level. Anyone who has these I have a very high level of confidence that they will return. I have worked with 100's of them. More ACL than TJ but almost all of them return.

 

However you are right with Jones but for the wrong reason, his back. If it wasn't for that injury he would have returned long ago. That problem came out of nowhere and is concerning. I don't know the specifics behind it but they did surgery almost as soon as it appeared. This is rare that a fairly long rehab wasn't attempted first. This is cause for concern.

 

Crede and Jenks, too.

 

They tried almost everything before doing the disc fusion surgery...I can't remember exactly, but he was a shadow of his former self upon returning.

 

 

[caulfield12]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=23644

 

Ptac will enjoy this one.....

 

 

http://grantland.com/features/mlb-catcher-...ollisions-rule/

And one about home plate collisions

Edited March 14, 2015 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article....articleid=23644

 

Ptac will enjoy this one.....

 

 

http://grantland.com/features/mlb-catcher-...ollisions-rule/

And one about home plate collisions

Wow. You weren't kidding. That was excellent information. It really sums it up well. Before anyone posts about pitching again they should listen to that. Specifically about velocity. Mechanic can be a difficult topic unless you've really studied them. However, velocity should be easy to understand. Everyone should realize that any discussion of velocity at this time of the year is not only useless but detrimental. Pitchers should not be throwing at their max level now.

 

This also exemplifies the problem with the current philosophy of pitching. Pitchers are now taught to go hard for six innings because it looks better in your analytics and you get more money as wins don't matter. Thus they throw harder more often instead of pacing themselves for longer outings. It's the same as hitters forgoing contact for power as that helps your OPS more. It really is a detriment to the pitcher's health. It's driven by the "new" way to look at pitching which in turn will make them more money. The pitchers are more effective for a shorter period of time but it also puts alot more stress on the arm.

 

This is a must listen for every fan who wants to understand what is happening to pitching.

[caulfield12]

Wow. You weren't kidding. That was excellent information. It really sums it up well. Before anyone posts about pitching again they should listen to that. Specifically about velocity. Mechanic can be a difficult topic unless you've really studied them. However, velocity should be easy to understand. Everyone should realize that any discussion of velocity at this time of the year is not only useless but detrimental. Pitchers should not be throwing at their max level now.

 

This also exemplifies the problem with the current philosophy of pitching. Pitchers are now taught to go hard for six innings because it looks better in your analytics and you get more money as wins don't matter. Thus they throw harder more often instead of pacing themselves for longer outings. It's the same as hitters forgoing contact for power as that helps your OPS more. It really is a detriment to the pitcher's health. It's driven by the "new" way to look at pitching which in turn will make them more money. The pitchers are more effective for a shorter period of time but it also puts alot more stress on the arm.

 

This is a must listen for every fan who wants to understand what is happening to pitching.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/mlb-los-...015-and-beyond/

 

It's the first of six threats to the Dodgers becoming a dynasty. Cool read, especially the possibility of their media deal going south (in Houston they simply declared bankruptcy to get out of deal with Astros and Rockets)....

[3GamesToLove]

Wow. You weren't kidding. That was excellent information. It really sums it up well. Before anyone posts about pitching again they should listen to that. Specifically about velocity. Mechanic can be a difficult topic unless you've really studied them. However, velocity should be easy to understand. Everyone should realize that any discussion of velocity at this time of the year is not only useless but detrimental. Pitchers should not be throwing at their max level now.

 

This also exemplifies the problem with the current philosophy of pitching. Pitchers are now taught to go hard for six innings because it looks better in your analytics and you get more money as wins don't matter. Thus they throw harder more often instead of pacing themselves for longer outings. It's the same as hitters forgoing contact for power as that helps your OPS more. It really is a detriment to the pitcher's health. It's driven by the "new" way to look at pitching which in turn will make them more money. The pitchers are more effective for a shorter period of time but it also puts alot more stress on the arm.

 

This is a must listen for every fan who wants to understand what is happening to pitching.

 

Yes, the analytical-industrial complex is ruining the game. <_>

[ptatc]

Yes, the analytical-industrial complex is ruining the game. <_>I think it does indirectly, though the money. It has been a recent trand away from complete games and wins as the pitching standard to quality starts, FIP, xFIP and my personal favorite SIERA. Pitchers are now getting paid by these performance criteria, rightfully so. However, these have also changed to way a pitcher pitches. They now throw more intensely fora ashorter period of time. The quality goes up but so does the intnsity of the pitchng. I've been saying all along and the podcast agreed that the intentional increased velocity more often creates the increased number of injuries. Pitchers are trying to throw harder more often to gets those numbers thus the bigger pay check. You can't blame them but it also causes issues. Pitchers used to pace themselves and throw as hard to conserve thmselves to pitch 9 inings. That doesn't happen much anymore.