The Bench

[Eminor3rd]

For their careers Becham has played about 40 more games and has a 5.3 WAR vs, Bonifacios 6.0 WAR. Since you know Gordon Beckham sucks, I guess this would be proof Bonifacio, despite beimg faster and playing more positions, sucks as well. Again, if Bonifacio is not goimg to play against RHP, he is hardly going to play. alexei played in almost every game and had 162 PA vs. LHP. Bonifacio is going to have to play against RHP occassionally.

 

I'm not trying to say Bonifacio is awesome. I AM trying to say he's better than Gordon Beckham, which is consistent with everything you just said as it is (Bonifacio has more WAR despite fewer games played), but especially so when you consider that just shy of HALF of Gordon Beckham's career fWAR came in a single season six years ago, whereas Bonifacio came in at roughly league average (2.1 fWAR) just last season. Beckham, last season, was actually BELOW replacement level (-0.2 fWAR). Surely you'd agree that when referencing a counting stat, recency is an important factor if you're trying to decide what's going to happen next season. Alex Rodriguez has 654 career HR while Jose Abreu has just 36, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks A Rod will hit more homers than Abreu in 2015.

 

Yes, I understand that Bonifacio will face RHP at some point in 2015, just like any part-time player. But you know what? He faced RHP sometimes last year too, and he still managed that 2.1 fWAR.

[Dick Allen]

I'm not trying to say Bonifacio is awesome. I AM trying to say he's better than Gordon Beckham, which is consistent with everything you just said as it is (Bonifacio has more WAR despite fewer games played), but especially so when you consider that just shy of HALF of Gordon Beckham's career fWAR came in a single season six years ago, whereas Bonifacio came in at roughly league average (2.1 fWAR) just last season. Beckham, last season, was actually BELOW replacement level (-0.2 fWAR). Surely you'd agree that when referencing a counting stat, recency is an important factor if you're trying to decide what's going to happen next season. Alex Rodriguez has 654 career HR while Jose Abreu has just 36, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks A Rod will hit more homers than Abreu in 2015.

 

Yes, I understand that Bonifacio will face RHP at some point in 2015, just like any part-time player. But you know what? He faced RHP sometimes last year too, and he still managed that 2.1 fWAR.

He managed the 2.1 fWAR, but that is pretty much an outlier. I hope he does it again, but chances are it will be less than 1.0.

[caulfield12]

He managed the 2.1 fWAR, but that is pretty much an outlier. I hope he does it again, but chances are it will be less than 1.0.

 

Let's hope so, we shouldn't be giving him 325-375 AB's to get to that number or we're in trouble.

 

Still not exactly clear at this point what's being argued.

[Dick Allen]

Let's hope so, we shouldn't be giving him 325-375 AB's to get to that number or we're in trouble.

 

Still not exactly clear at this point what's being argued.

The only thing I am arguing is the bashing of Gordon Beckham and the love of Emilio Bonifacio. Their performance over the course of their careers is pretty similiar.

 

If you hate Gordon Beckham to the point where seeing his name in a spring training line up pisses you off, you probably at the end of the season, aren't going to think much of Emilio Bonifacio.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

Let's hope so, we shouldn't be giving him 325-375 AB's to get to that number or we're in trouble.

 

Still not exactly clear at this point what's being argued.

 

I'm arguing that Bonifacio is a much better part-time player than Beckham because of their respective skillsets. If used correctly, I think Bonifacio can be a valuable asset. That does NOT mean I think he should be a starter.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

I'm arguing that Bonifacio is a much better part-time player than Beckham because of their respective skillsets. If used correctly, I think Bonifacio can be a valuable asset. That does NOT mean I think he should be a starter.

The problem is s*** happens. You can used the "if used correctly", the problem is with a 25 man roster, at least a 12 man pitching staff, and injuries and illness, there are going to be plenty of times that is simply not possible.

[GREEDY]

Really could use a right handed outfield bat to spell Laroche at DH vs LHP.

 

Adam would still be very valuable in a pinch hit role where you can force an opposing manager to burn two relievers, or let Laroche hit in a plus matchup vs a righty out of the pen.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Really could use a right handed outfield bat to spell Laroche at DH vs LHP.

 

Adam would still be very valuable in a pinch hit role where you can force an opposing manager to burn two relievers, or let Laroche hit in a plus matchup vs a righty out of the pen.

 

 

What would be really hilarious would be Dayan coming back for that role and Gordon getting released.

[Lillian]

Really could use a right handed outfield bat to spell Laroche at DH vs LHP.

 

Adam would still be very valuable in a pinch hit role where you can force an opposing manager to burn two relievers, or let Laroche hit in a plus matchup vs a righty out of the pen.

 

Thank you. That was precisely what I said, and that was the point of starting the thread.

I really like having a good left handed bat, or two, on the bench, when there is a lefty starting for the opposition.

Having those bats available to face tough RH relievers is a point, which you and I are making, but few here seem to want to comment on.

Until your post, that point was almost entirely ignored. Again, thanks for bringing the discussion back to the central point.

[Eminor3rd]

The problem is s*** happens. You can used the "if used correctly", the problem is with a 25 man roster, at least a 12 man pitching staff, and injuries and illness, there are going to be plenty of times that is simply not possible.

 

Definitely. But that doesn't mean your Opening Day 25-man roster shouldn't be "plan A."

[Dick Allen]

Definitely. But that doesn't mean your Opening Day 25-man roster shouldn't be "plan A."

Say Gillaspie gets hit by a pitch and breaks his wrist, and is out 6 weeks. Consider 80% of the time in those 6 weeks, the White Sox will be facing RHP, which seems more than reasonable, who among Beckham, Leury, Bonifacio, Saladino, Sanchez or Matt Davidson is really the best candidate to take the majority of those ABs?

 

Most won't admit it because of personal bias, but right now it's Beckham.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen

[ILMOU]

Say Gillaspie gets hit by a pitch and breaks his wrist, and is out 6 weeks. Consider 80% of the time in those 6 weeks, the White Sox will be facing RHP, which seems more than reasonable, who among Beckham, Leury, Bonifacio, Saladino, Sanchez or Matt Davidson is really the best candidate to take the majority of those ABs?

 

Most won't admit it because of personal bias, but right now it's Beckham.

Yes, s*** happens, and I'm glad you brought this up. IF an injury happens to Conor, OR Micah, or somebody else, you can, if you're smart, call up Sanchez or Saladino to start, and keep Bonifacio/Beckham in their utility roles. The kid who gets called up doesn't miss ABs, you'll get a real look at their mlb potential, and your bench isn't extended into undesirable roles - like playing Boni or GB everyday.

 

If there's any bias here, it's our FO giving every last chance to a player who hasn't been worth a damn for five entire seasons, perhaps still not admitting the abject failure of Gordo's Sox career - and your defense of such crapitude.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[Eminor3rd]

Say Gillaspie gets hit by a pitch and breaks his wrist, and is out 6 weeks. Consider 80% of the time in those 6 weeks, the White Sox will be facing RHP, which seems more than reasonable, who among Beckham, Leury, Bonifacio, Saladino, Sanchez or Matt Davidson is really the best candidate to take the majority of those ABs?

 

Most won't admit it because of personal bias, but right now it's Beckham.

 

I'd admit it's probably Beckham in that instance, but it's just as likely that Melky or Avi or Eaton breaks a wrist instead, so having a guy that's able to step in at all of those positions (including 3B) is more valuable at this point.

 

I don't mind Beckham on the bench in general, as opposed to being cut, but I wouldn't have spent the $2m on him in the first place. I'd rather give that role to someone who can be just as valuable defensively but who might have some upside with the bat, like Saladino or Leury.

 

EDIT: It'd also be really cool to have some legit speed to spare on the bench. Like say if we went north with Soto/Bonifacio/Shuck/Garcia. You can basically pinch run both of those players every game if you wanted, because they can serve as useful defensive replacements anywhere on the field late in the game. Would make for a pretty fun potential edge.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[Dick Allen]

I'd admit it's probably Beckham in that instance, but it's just as likely that Melky or Avi or Eaton breaks a wrist instead, so having a guy that's able to step in at all of those positions (including 3B) is more valuable at this point.

 

I don't mind Beckham on the bench in general, as opposed to being cut, but I wouldn't have spent the $2m on him in the first place. I'd rather give that role to someone who can be just as valuable defensively but who might have some upside with the bat, like Saladino or Leury.

I like Leury more than most, but Leury and upside with the bat should never be in the same sentence. Saladino had a nice offensive season last year before he was hurt. The 2 previous years he was putting up Gordon Beckham major league numbers in AA. I would really question his effectiveness on the major league level at this time.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Eminor3rd]

I like Leury more than most, but Leury and upside with the bat should never be in the same sentence.

 

Yeah I don't have him turning into anything significant, but I also think he just can't possibly be as bad as he's been. I think he'll regress to at least a 70 - 75 wRC+ or so just by continuing to swing the bat and focusing on contact.

[ILMOU]

I'd admit it's probably Beckham in that instance, but it's just as likely that Melky or Avi or Eaton breaks a wrist instead, so having a guy that's able to step in at all of those positions (including 3B) is more valuable at this point.

 

I don't mind Beckham on the bench in general, as opposed to being cut, but I wouldn't have spent the $2m on him in the first place. I'd rather give that role to someone who can be just as valuable defensively but who might have some upside with the bat, like Saladino or Leury.

You had me til Leury. I don't think he has ANY potential with the bat.

 

Time to look at Saladino or Sanchez in an everyday role, if someone goes down. We KNOW GB will suck, if we're being realistic.

[Eminor3rd]

I like Leury more than most, but Leury and upside with the bat should never be in the same sentence. Saladino had a nice offensive season last year before he was hurt. The 2 previous years he was putting up Gordon Beckham major league numbers in AA. I would really question his effectiveness on the major league level at this time.

 

Yeah there's no question that Beckham would be better than Saladino, I just don't think the difference was worth $2m and a roster spot in the first place. But we'll see -- fans always seem to underestimate depth, so it's certainly possible his contract ends up being worth it. I tend to think, though, that if we reach that point, it probably means the season is already lost.

[ILMOU]

I like Leury more than most, but Leury and upside with the bat should never be in the same sentence. Saladino had a nice offensive season last year before he was hurt. The 2 previous years he was putting up Gordon Beckham major league numbers in AA. I would really question his effectiveness on the major league level at this time.

Saladino had two down seasons, in between two very good seasons. I'm not really sure what the total story behind it is, beyond some injuries, and anyone who can shed a light on it is appreciated. However, he's described as plenty competent at 2B, 3B and SS, plus has played a bit of OF, and he passes the eye test in my limited viewings. He raked last year, especially against lefties. He's had plenty of experience and time in the system, and deserves a first chance far more than Gordon deserves yet another.

 

Yeah there's no question that Beckham would be better than Saladino, I just don't think the difference was worth $2m and a roster spot in the first place. But we'll see -- fans always seem to underestimate depth, so it's certainly possible his contract ends up being worth it. I tend to think, though, that if we reach that point, it probably means the season is already lost.

Say what, now? This isn't a high bar we're talking about. Give Saladino a chance.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[Eminor3rd]

Say what, now? This isn't a high bar we're talking about. Give Saladino a chance.

 

I agree, I'd have given him the chance.

[GreenSox]

Is Beckham still hitting .050? That' s not worthy of an utility infielder spot. There's no more growth to him...he's not a young player. I'd rather see Sanchez there.

 

 

The problem with our bench is that we have guys who are good fielders, but not great fielders; and they can't hit a lick. So they can't really do much. If you want a fielder, have a great one like Bradley Jr or Peter in ST Louis.

As for pinch running, if they don't score, they then have to take the field and may have to bat. I saw ABreu pulled far too many times fo my tastes for a pinch runner anyway.

 

 

[ILMOU]

Thank you. That was precisely what I said, and that was the point of starting the thread.

I really like having a good left handed bat, or two, on the bench, when there is a lefty starting for the opposition.

Having those bats available to face tough RH relievers is a point, which you and I are making, but few here seem to want to comment on.

Until your post, that point was almost entirely ignored. Again, thanks for bringing the discussion back to the central point.

There's others here with you, Lillian. LaRoche may be one of those lefty sluggers that gets increasingly platooney with age - his recent trend would indicate this. I have little doubt that he will rake against RHP in our park, and the fact that most closers and late inning relievers are Righties means that Adam should find his way into most late inning/close game situations, regardless. But having him on the bench as a PH, on days where he doesn't start against a lefty, gives Robin a late inning weapon, and allows him to give three AB's earlier in the game to someone more likely to do damage vs. LHP. If RV allows the opposing manager to work the key late inning AB toward ALaR hitting vs. a LHRP after a Jose pitch-around, it will cost us games.

 

Yes, I know you don't pay a guy $25M over two years to be a (majority) platoon player (not really all that much, just sounds like it ). Yes, I believe ALaR expects to be in there for the most part, regardless of handedness. And, yes, I believe that the season will start with this as the general plan.

 

However, I believe that it may become very obvious, very quickly, that Adam just isn't good enough anymore vs. lefties, and Rick will be setting about looking for a remedy, by midseason or sooner. Maybe from within, who knows?

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[Dick Allen]

I would have given him the chance and spent the Beckham money on Rickie Weeks or Chris Denorfia. Obviously I don't know that those options would have been surely available but still.

 

Soto, Bonifacio, Denorfia/Weeks and Saladino >>> Soto, Bonifacio, Shuck and Beckham

At this stage, Rickie Weeks is a DH. Having a DH on the bench doesn't make much sense.

[Whisox05]

Beckham's back after Hahn reconsidered http://t.co/85a8xvFcvM

https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox/status/577885337130700800

[southsider2k5]

Beckham's back after Hahn reconsidered http://t.co/85a8xvFcvM

https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox/status/577885337130700800

 

Interesting that even Hahn feels there is extra attention for Gordo because of who he is.

 

“As any of our free agents will tell you, we were quick in reaching out to them as soon as we were able to, once the World Series ended,” Hahn said earlier this spring at a gathering of Cactus League managers and GMs. “With Gordon, I told his agent, and I told him, that if his name had been Joe Smith, or I had been in Atlanta and had the exact same roster, we probably would have called him the minute he was non-tendered because his skill set was a fit. But I didn’t place that call because I didn’t think this was necessarily right fit for Gordon Beckham, individually.”

 

Indeed Hahn took into account the added mental strains that would come with returning to a former team, when getting a fresh start elsewhere seemed to be the better idea.

 

But other factors seemed to be in play as well, presumably the fact that Beckham’s six weeks with the Angels might have been the break he needed, and that being free from the responsibility of playing everyday would help him to maintain his swing.

[Jose Abreu]

Is Beckham still hitting .050? That' s not worthy of an utility infielder spot.

It's Spring Training. Beckham will hit better than .050.