Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 11:37 AM) Yeah I don't have him turning into anything significant, but I also think he just can't possibly be as bad as he's been. I think he'll regress to at least a 70 - 75 wRC+ or so just by continuing to swing the bat and focusing on contact. Wait what? You think a guy who just put up a wRC+ of 2 last year is going to regress to a wRC+ of at least 70 to 75?? I get it was an incredibly small sample, but I can't remember a single player who looked so clueless at the plate in recent memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 12:52 PM) Wait what? You think a guy who just put up a wRC+ of 2 last year is going to regress to a wRC+ of at least 70 to 75?? I get it was an incredibly small sample, but I can't remember a single player who looked so clueless at the plate in recent memory. As a 25 year old in over 600 plate appearances, Ozzie Smith put up a 47 wRC+. Leury isn't a good hitter, and probably never will be, but 70-75 doesn't exactly say he ever will be. With his speed, if he keeps it on the ground, that should be attainable. He was in over his head last year, and wasn't ready for the major leagues. He'll be better than he was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:08 PM) Assuming Johnson is the 2B, Weeks could have played there against some lefties, could have spelled Melky/Garcia in the OF and DHed for LaRoche against some lefties. All bench players have warts that's why they are bench players. For instance, Gordon Beckham, a bench player, hasn't been an above league average hitter since his half season in 2009 and your boy only plays one position adequately. Beckham's upside is that he isn't horrible at 2B defensively. Rickie Weeks had the upside of filling a few different positions and carries a lifetime .261/.385/.448/.834 against lefties. Your post is proof of the Gordon Beckham hatred bias. Beckham has played 3B, SS, and 2B on the major league level. Yet you say:your boy only plays one position adequately Rickie Weeks has only DH'd and played 2b in the major leagues and he is one of the worst fielding 2b in the major leagues. Yet: Rickie Weeks had the upside of filling a few different positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:05 PM) As a 25 year old in over 600 plate appearances, Ozzie Smith put up a 47 wRC+. Leury isn't a good hitter, and probably never will be, but 70-75 doesn't exactly say he ever will be. With his speed, if he keeps it on the ground, that should be attainable. He was in over his head last year, and wasn't ready for the major leagues. He'll be better than he was. He'll definitely be better than he was last year because he can't get much worse. However, I have no faith he will regress to at least a 70 to 75 wRC+ hitter, which is what Beckham was last year. Beckham's BB %, K %, & ISO even in a down year seem beyond what is reasonably attainable for Leury. Not saying it's impossible, but nothing we saw last year should suggest it's likely. Edited March 17, 2015 by Chicago White Sox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILMOU Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 11:37 AM) Beckham's back after Hahn reconsidered http://t.co/85a8xvFcvM https://twitter.com/ESPNChiSox/status/577885337130700800 " If White Sox general manager Rick Hahn stayed with his first instinct, Gordon Beckham returning to the team that drafted him never would have happened " This is exactly why all mentors and gurus will tell you to go with your first instinct. Edited March 17, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:24 PM) If this "hatred bias" means the whole board (other than you and elrockin) can take a giant sample size and realize Beckham provides very, very little to a MLB then yes, there is a hatred bias. As far as the bolded, not sure what you don't get. Sure, Beckham has played SS/3B but I said he has played one position adequately. As you understand with Weeks, but not Beckham (is there a Weeks hatred bias here?), you can play a position without doing it adequately. An .800+ OPS hitter against lefties 5-10 times a month at 2B (even as a detriment defensively), LF and DH brings much more to this team than what Beckham brings. A lot of baseball people feel he can play 3B and SS adequatly as well. You have Weeks at 2b, Weeks in the OF... I wonder why he only got $2 million. Why would you want a guy on your bench that you don't want to put in the field when you have weakness defensively at 2b and 3b in your starting line up? Beckham coming in late for Micah or Gillaspie will be pretty valuable over time. Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:31 PM) So you're saying players who only get 2 million contracts aren't good? Interesting. You've seem to have posted 50 times a day for the last week nitpicking a half sentence out of every rationale argument so you can steer the conversation towards nonsensical tangents to prove the contrary. Nonsensical? Your the guy who said Rickie Weeks had the upside of being able to play multiple positions. He hasn't yet, but obviously you know something no one else does. I'm saying if Rickie Weeks were half as great as you made him out to be, he would have received more than the White Sox gave Felipe Paulino last season. Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 12:52 PM) Wait what? You think a guy who just put up a wRC+ of 2 last year is going to regress to a wRC+ of at least 70 to 75?? I get it was an incredibly small sample, but I can't remember a single player who looked so clueless at the plate in recent memory. Exactly. No one is that bad. And guys that make solid contact and have speed have a certain floor. Leury K rate was out of control last year, but his peripherals show that his contact rates/discipline weren't too much worse than average. I think some growth and more PT could see him become a useful bench piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 12:25 PM) I would have given him the chance and spent the Beckham money on Rickie Weeks or Chris Denorfia. Obviously I don't know that those options would have been surely available but still. Soto, Bonifacio, Denorfia/Weeks and Saladino >>> Soto, Bonifacio, Shuck and Beckham I'd have gone after another scrap heap starter with the money. Denorfia would be good, too. I'm not sure Weeks is much better than Beckham at this point, especially because he's got some nagging leg injuries, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Not sure if I've posted this thought in this thread, but the lack of power on the bench worries me, especially from the 4th outfielder. With Eaton and Garcia seemingly tweaking something every week last year, I have a feeling the 4th outfielder is going to be the most important bench player on the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) Not sure if I've posted this thought in this thread, but the lack of power on the bench worries me, especially from the 4th outfielder. With Eaton and Garcia seemingly tweaking something every week last year, I have a feeling the 4th outfielder is going to be the most important bench player on the team. Another reason why Denorfia would have been a better use of the $2m we paid Beckham. We just have so much mediocre, glove-first MI depth already. Hahn did a great job of filling holes this winter, but I agree that bench OF depth was one he left open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:55 PM) Another reason why Denorfia would have been a better use of the $2m we paid Beckham. We just have so much mediocre, glove-first MI depth already. Hahn did a great job of filling holes this winter, but I agree that bench OF depth was one he left open. Denorfia was $2.6 million. I do wish the Sox had someone on the bench who could hit homers. The 2010 version of Andruw Jones would have been a good fit. Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (fathom @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:50 PM) Not sure if I've posted this thought in this thread, but the lack of power on the bench worries me, especially from the 4th outfielder. With Eaton and Garcia seemingly tweaking something every week last year, I have a feeling the 4th outfielder is going to be the most important bench player on the team. 100% agree, which is my beef with Beckham. I'm fine with him as a reserve infielder, but I'd rather have used the money on a legit 4th OF that could also fill in for LaRoche against tough LHP and settled for Sanchez or Saladino in Gordon's role. I love Bonafacio as a pure utility guy, who provides value through his speed and versatility that WAR can't fully account for, but I'm terrified of him being an everyday OF if someone goes down. Our lack of OF depth is our biggest risk on the position player side IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Gordon is just pointless. He can play mediocre defense and mediocre offense. I actually think it's up for discussion whether he provides more value than Leury would. Leury wouldn't hit as well, but would play better defense at more positions and be a great pinch runner option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lillian Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 Thank you, "Stan Bahnsen". Well put. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Jake @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:08 PM) Gordon is just pointless. He can play mediocre defense and mediocre offense. I actually think it's up for discussion whether he provides more value than Leury would. Leury wouldn't hit as well, but would play better defense at more positions and be a great pinch runner option. He's really not. With Gillaspie and Johnson, there is going to be a need for late inning defensive replacements, and offensive replacements vs. LHP. Leury can play the defense, but offensively needs some time in the minors. That is pretty apparent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Stan Bahnsen @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 10:58 AM) There's others here with you, Lillian. LaRoche may be one of those lefty sluggers that gets increasingly platooney with age - his recent trend would indicate this. I have little doubt that he will rake against RHP in our park, and the fact that most closers and late inning relievers are Righties means that Adam should find his way into most late inning/close game situations, regardless. But having him on the bench as a PH, on days where he doesn't start against a lefty, gives Robin a late inning weapon, and allows him to give three AB's earlier in the game to someone more likely to do damage vs. LHP. If RV allows the opposing manager to work the key late inning AB toward ALaR hitting vs. a LHRP after a Jose pitch-around, it will cost us games. Yes, I know you don't pay a guy $25M over two years to be a (majority) platoon player (not really all that much, just sounds like it ). Yes, I believe ALaR expects to be in there for the most part, regardless of handedness. And, yes, I believe that the season will start with this as the general plan. However, I believe that it may become very obvious, very quickly, that Adam just isn't good enough anymore vs. lefties, and Rick will be setting about looking for a remedy, by midseason or sooner. Maybe from within, who knows? ALAR? It sounds like a biology or chem experiment gone horribly wrong....we can do better!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 01:18 PM) He's really not. With Gillaspie and Johnson, there is going to be a need for late inning defensive replacements, and offensive replacements vs. LHP. Leury can play the defense, but offensively needs some time in the minors. That is pretty apparent. I thought I defended Viciedo pretty much in the face of opposition (along with a few others), but this is becoming Don Quixote territory. You sure there's not some personal reason why you've decided to make him your own pro bono defense attorney case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxfest Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) If someone better is around MLB after 25 man rosters are finalized, I would cut Beckham in a heartbeat. Edited March 17, 2015 by Soxfest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:20 PM) I thought I defended Viciedo pretty much in the face of opposition (along with a few others), but this is becoming Don Quixote territory. You sure there's not some personal reason why you've decided to make him your own pro bono defense attorney case? It's pretty funny I am the one with the Gordon Beckhamobsession when all I am doing is trying to throw sense at everyone ripping him. Apparently that is what this website wants, everyone bagging on Beckham whenever they can. He isn't nearly as bad of a player as most here think. Not even close. But as was pointed out, I wanted the Sox to sign Jimenez last year, so I missed on that, but I also defended one Jose Contreras the end of 2004 until May or so of 2005 when Soxtalk wanted him traded for AJ Burnett. Beckham will be a fine back up. He won't shut anyone up, I get that. He walked the other day and instead of it being a good AB from any other player, it was "lucky" on the gamethread. Of course his nice play with good range turning a DP getting Robertson out of a jam was just about ignored as well. It's a back up infielder. He's fine in that role. People put too much into this. You aren't going to get an All Star to be a back up infielder for $2 million on the open market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:07 PM) 100% agree, which is my beef with Beckham. I'm fine with him as a reserve infielder, but I'd rather have used the money on a legit 4th OF that could also fill in for LaRoche against tough LHP and settled for Sanchez or Saladino in Gordon's role. I love Bonafacio as a pure utility guy, who provides value through his speed and versatility that WAR can't fully account for, but I'm terrified of him being an everyday OF if someone goes down. Our lack of OF depth is our biggest risk on the position player side IMO. There was this Viciedo guy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHurt3515 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) 2010 Andruw Jones in 328 PAs: .230/.341/.486, 121 wRC+, 120 OPS+ 2014 Rickie Weeks in 286 PAs:.274/.357/.452, 127 wRC+, 124 OPS+ I totally forgot he was even on our team at one point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:25 PM) 2010 Andruw Jones in 328 PAs: .230/.341/.486, 121 wRC+, 120 OPS+ 2014 Rickie Weeks in 286 PAs:.274/.357/.452, 127 wRC+, 124 OPS+ Andruw Jones could play the OF. Rickie Weeks cannot. I thought about Rickie Weeks, but you can't have guys that can't play defense on the bench when you are pretty weak defensively in several spots. Weeks can play 2b, and not very well. Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (raBBit @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 02:27 PM) Gordon Beckham against RHP: .245/.304/.375/.680 Gordon Beckham against LHP: .244/.314/.373/.687 Why don't you use his line from last year like you did Rickie Weeks? Besides a .687 OPS is better than what Conor is going to give you vs. LHP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenSox Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Mar 17, 2015 -> 03:13 PM) Why don't you use his line from last year like you did Rickie Weeks? Besides a .687 OPS is better than what Conor is going to give you vs. LHP. Maybe, but Gillaspie still only has less than 200 PA hitting against lefties. And .687 is still terrible. And just to clarify, I'm not in favor of exchanging Beckham for some equally medicore/bad veteran 2B in another uniform. Rather put Sanchez or someone out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.