The Bench

[Dick Allen]

The Mariners signed him to play OF so "people in baseball think he can defend adequately." Weeks could play 2B, LF and DH and when used correctly his bat has a track record to be good enough to make up for his lack of defensive prowess. How much of a step down could he be from Micah Johnson who is sorely lacking the reps.

 

 

You used a one year sample size of Andruw Jones as the player you would want on the bench so I was using your parameters. Weeks splits against lefties in 2014 aren't far off from his career splits. Bonifacio can give you better than what Beckham or Gillaspie could give at 3B vs. lefties which renders Beckham entirely useless. Both Beckham and Weeks have been around long enough for to have significant sample sizes. Both players have an established track record against lefties. Beckham sucks just as much as he does against RHP (almost exactly the same!), Weeks is well above league average.

 

DA post #1: Rips Rickie Weeks

 

DA post #2: Says the team needs a bench player with the output of a 2010 Andruw Jones

 

DA is then informed that a 2014 Rickie Weeks was better than a 2010 Andruw Jones in a similar sample.

 

DA post #3: Changes the subject to sample sizes.

Quit making s*** up. The White Sox need a guy who can play the OF. I know you claim Rickie Weeks can, but he is 32 and NEVER has.

Also comsider he has been asked to learn to play in the outfield before and refused.

 

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/brewers/bre...291.html?ipad=y

 

Sounds like a team player you would want on your bench.

 

And there is no guarantee Weeks is going to match his 2014 offensively in 2015 other than you say so. His BABIP was .355 last year, .268 and .285 the years prior.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Dick Allen

[ILMOU]

oops wrng thread

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[Eminor3rd]

I got you on a beer at a game within the next few months DA.

 

Lol

[chitownsportsfan]

I'm going to go ahead and throw this out there: would the team be better served with a purely defensive 4th OF -- aka Thompson? Yea you'd like to get him more AB in AAA and see if a breakthrough happens but on the other hand -- he's clearly the best defensive CF outside of Eaton in camp.

 

 

[Chisoxfn]

If Beckham didn't start the past few years with the organization, I think we would have a different opinion of him. I think the reality is this is one of those someone elses trash is our treasure type scenario and Beckham is still our trash and we all remember him for being a starter (and he wasn't a good starter). I don't know what Gordon will do off the bench but in a bench role, I have a hard time arguing against him not being a useful utility guy, given he can play solid defense at 3B and 2B and is a pretty good baserunner, etc. He'll also have to become an expert at laying down bunts should circumstances warrant it, etc.

 

Bottom line, is Beckham great? No. Is he the best bench player in the league, no. But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions about him based upon his spring training stats. I know he's a lousy starter but if managed properly he could provide some value off the bench as a depth guy. I think any of us would be thinking the same thing had he not spent the previous umteen years as a starter for our team.

[LDF]

If Beckham didn't start the past few years with the organization, I think we would have a different opinion of him. I think the reality is this is one of those someone elses trash is our treasure type scenario and Beckham is still our trash and we all remember him for being a starter (and he wasn't a good starter). I don't know what Gordon will do off the bench but in a bench role, I have a hard time arguing against him not being a useful utility guy, given he can play solid defense at 3B and 2B and is a pretty good baserunner, etc. He'll also have to become an expert at laying down bunts should circumstances warrant it, etc.

 

Bottom line, is Beckham great? No. Is he the best bench player in the league, no. But I'm not going to jump to crazy conclusions about him based upon his spring training stats. I know he's a lousy starter but if managed properly he could provide some value off the bench as a depth guy. I think any of us would be thinking the same thing had he not spent the previous umteen years as a starter for our team.

 

and i think you are really being kind. for me, i was a fan, at sometime, i came to realize all this suppose potential is never going to be reach. maybe that is why i am angry, disappointed in him as a player. in addition, getting 2 mil for what he is going to provide??? they, the sox FO could've done better.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckhgo01.shtml

[Chisoxfn]

While I agree on the first sentence I can't say as much past that. Despite Hahn saying so, it's arguable he is average at 3B defensively and his bat is well below average even when platooned. I am not going to validate giving someone a bench spot based off of them becoming on expert on bunting. The things you mention that make him a decent bench player would hold also true for Tyler Saladino. Saladino is a better infielder (surely on the left side at the least) and a better baserunner/pinch runner than Beckham. I am less confident that Saladino would be a better hitter than Beckham but it's not really much of a bar to beat. If he could hit league average against LHP he'd be a way better bench player than Beckham. While a lot of people aren't fans of Beckham as a player, my biggest gripe is the opportunity cost. We could have had Saladino and a RH defensive OF, strong RH bar or extra 5th starter type.

 

Obviously the bench isn't going to full of all stars, but you want these guys to bring at least one great quality. Jordan Danks was lost with the stick most of the time but I felt great when he came in a defensive replacement. Bonifacio isn't going to carry the offense but he has speed and flexibility. Saladino may never amount to more than 50 MLB PAs but, right now he can come off the bench and pinch run late in games and defend just as well if not better than Beckham. What does Beckham bring? Above average defense at 2B? Color me un impressed. When GMs are building their Championship team they don't pound the phone lines looking for a bench player who can't hit against any type of pitcher and turns a good double play.

 

I don't think anybody has been making this case against Beckham because of his Spring Training stats but those stats have certainly further enforced that argument if you value ST stats. The same people arguing against his utility and practicality (Eminor, shysocks, myself) can be seen doing so on the day he was signed: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=94456&st=0

 

Fortunately, to make this move, I think the Sox must think very highly of Beckham as an individual. It's not really a desirable position to be in for him, Gllaspie/Micah/Sanchez or for Robin and the coaching staff. So the Sox front office is definitely giving him a vote of confidence to handle the mental aspect of his assignment.

I have no issue with Saladino and others, but I think the Sox also value having Beckham on the bench and think there are other aspects that he can provide and I think there is probably a bit of a trust factor knowing that your bench player was a starter in this league for quite some time (a good one, no, but a starter nonetheless). There are a lot more unknowns about the other guys being discussed and to be frank none of the other options have the pedigree of a guy like Gordon. Right, wrong or indifferent. I liken my bench to have versatility and I think the Sox bench does have that. I am not a big fan of either guy being discussed (Gordon or B) to be frank. None of them provide much upside but they are bench players who have experience and bring some value, albeit limit, when used appropriately. I have a bigger issue with how much we paid B vs. how much we paid Gordon to be honest.

 

If I were to make a bet of who'd be a better player from a pure value perspective, I'd make my bet on Gordon and I don't like Gordon. I also don't think the 2M will get in the way of moving to another guy if Tyler or Sanchez proves they deserve the extra time. I do think the Sox see value in some of the intangibles Gordon brings to the equation, which can be just as important, including his ability to work and help Micah (a guy we are putting a lot of pressure on).

[LDF]

While I agree on the first sentence I can't say as much past that. Despite Hahn saying so, it's arguable he is average at 3B defensively and his bat is well below average even when platooned. I am not going to validate giving someone a bench spot based off of them becoming on expert on bunting. The things you mention that make him a decent bench player would hold also true for Tyler Saladino. Saladino is a better infielder (surely on the left side at the least) and a better baserunner/pinch runner than Beckham. I am less confident that Saladino would be a better hitter than Beckham but it's not really much of a bar to beat. If he could hit league average against LHP he'd be a way better bench player than Beckham. While a lot of people aren't fans of Beckham as a player, my biggest gripe is the opportunity cost. We could have had Saladino and a RH defensive OF, strong RH bar or extra 5th starter type.

 

Obviously the bench isn't going to full of all stars, but you want these guys to bring at least one great quality. Jordan Danks was lost with the stick most of the time but I felt great when he came in a defensive replacement. Bonifacio isn't going to carry the offense but he has speed and flexibility. Saladino may never amount to more than 50 MLB PAs but, right now he can come off the bench and pinch run late in games and defend just as well if not better than Beckham. What does Beckham bring? Above average defense at 2B? Color me un impressed. When GMs are building their Championship team they don't pound the phone lines looking for a bench player who can't hit against any type of pitcher and turns a good double play.

 

I don't think anybody has been making this case against Beckham because of his Spring Training stats but those stats have certainly further enforced that argument if you value ST stats. The same people arguing against his utility and practicality (Eminor, shysocks, myself) can be seen doing so on the day he was signed: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=94456&st=0

 

Fortunately, to make this move, I think the Sox must think very highly of Beckham as an individual. It's not really a desirable position to be in for him, Gllaspie/Micah/Sanchez or for Robin and the coaching staff. So the Sox front office is definitely giving him a vote of confidence to handle the mental aspect of his assignment.

 

excellent analysis of the signing and background. all this reminds me of a sox owners loyalty to players who were good soldiers, so to speak. now i am not belittling or criticizing, i am just speaking the truth. 2 mill for him, when the sox could have gotten Everth Cabrera for a little more money and he would provide a better option. but what the hell, our idea and obviously the front office idea are so different.

 

[LDF]

I have no issue with Saladino and others, but I think the Sox also value having Beckham on the bench and think there are other aspects that he can provide and I think there is probably a bit of a trust factor knowing that your bench player was a starter in this league for quite some time (a good one, no, but a starter nonetheless). There are a lot more unknowns about the other guys being discussed and to be frank none of the other options have the pedigree of a guy like Gordon. Right, wrong or indifferent. I liken my bench to have versatility and I think the Sox bench does have that. I am not a big fan of either guy being discussed (Gordon or B) to be frank. None of them provide much upside but they are bench players who have experience and bring some value, albeit limit, when used appropriately. I have a bigger issue with how much we paid B vs. how much we paid Gordon to be honest.

 

If I were to make a bet of who'd be a better player from a pure value perspective, I'd make my bet on Gordon and I don't like Gordon. I also don't think the 2M will get in the way of moving to another guy if Tyler or Sanchez proves they deserve the extra time. I do think the Sox see value in some of the intangibles Gordon brings to the equation, which can be just as important, including his ability to work and help Micah (a guy we are putting a lot of pressure on).

 

earlier in the offseason, the front office was b****ing about lack of money and fans, money does matter to the sox owners group.

[ILMOU]

I'd rather take chances at guys who actually offer upside than going conservative with a Beckham type. He can't hit LHP/RHP, can't pinch run and him being this great defender at 3B is baseless conjecture. The bench has versatility whether they carried Beckham or Saladino. Hahn told me himself the Saladino is the third best SS in the organization and that's behind Alexei and a "plus-plus" fielder in Rondon. So if you like versatility Saladino would better serve your taste. Beckham has barely played 100 innings away from 2B after '09. Saladino hasn't played much away from SS other than 2B (because he's very good at the position, a position GB couldn't cut it at mind you) but has played 1B, 3B and worked in the OF.

 

As far as value, I'll take Saladino at 500K over Beckham at 2 million.

 

I don't know Jason I feel like you're reaching here. When we have to guess on the intangible value Beckham brings it's pushing it. What intangibles does he bring? The ability to be good with the media? The ability to feel much better at the plate every year? The ability to change his stance and hands every few weeks? I'd rather Micah coached up by Eaton who has already been helping him along this spring.

Exactly.

 

There were many other ways to go that could have been a better fit to round out the bench. But, in the end, it should be a minor quibble, and hopefully Saladino or Sanchez or somebody else is given a chance to supplant Gordo at some point.

 

But I have faith. They ate the bulk of the Keppy deal. When and if Gordo sucks come April, they won't wait around too long to send him packing in a year they expect to contend.

 

I'll make my peace with what I feel was a bad late addition to Hahn's offseason masterpiece.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Stan Bahnsen

[LDF]

Exactly.

 

There were many other ways to go that could have been a better fit to round out the bench. But, in the end, it should be a minor quibble, and hopefully Saladino or Sanchez or somebody else is given a chance to supplant Gordo at some point.

 

i would like to disagree, Gordo is going to get paid 2 mill, Gordo will make the team, whether the fans, agrees or whether they like it.

[ILMOU]

i would like to disagree, Gordo is going to get paid 2 mill, Gordo will make the team, whether the fans, agrees or whether they like it.

No, I'm aware GB is on the 25 no matter what, it would seem. Just think he won't be given the longest leash, even as a utility guy.

 

They'll realize they made a mistake, and move on, relatively quickly.

 

[LDF]

No, I'm aware GB is on the 25 no matter what, it would seem. Just think he won't be given the longest leash, even as a utility guy.

 

They'll realize they made a mistake, and move on, relatively quickly.

 

you have a point in the late addition to your previous post, about buying out the contract. i would never assume that the sox FO would have done that, but they did. i just don't know if they would admit it again and buy him out.

[LDF]

No, I'm aware GB is on the 25 no matter what, it would seem. Just think he won't be given the longest leash, even as a utility guy.

 

They'll realize they made a mistake, and move on, relatively quickly.

 

here is a rhetorical question, what will or what would be the catalyst to, as you say, move on??

[LDF]

let me also say, i am not trying to ugly here and bash Gordo or the owners group. but sometime i am wondering if the owners group are fully aware how fragile this team is without full backup options. i mean not playing favorites or looking for the right deal. this team is so freaking close.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

100% agree, which is my beef with Beckham. I'm fine with him as a reserve infielder, but I'd rather have used the money on a legit 4th OF that could also fill in for LaRoche against tough LHP and settled for Sanchez or Saladino in Gordon's role.

 

I love Bonafacio as a pure utility guy, who provides value through his speed and versatility that WAR can't fully account for, but I'm terrified of him being an everyday OF if someone goes down. Our lack of OF depth is our biggest risk on the position player side IMO.

I'm still holding out hope that the teams with surplus OF's like the Red Sox and Padres look to move one of them and the Sox bite. Not likely considering what the Sox are paying Bonifacio and Beckham but ya never know.

[Eminor3rd]

While I agree on the first sentence I can't say as much past that. Despite Hahn saying so, it's arguable he is average at 3B defensively and his bat is well below average even when platooned. I am not going to validate giving someone a bench spot based off of them becoming on expert on bunting. The things you mention that make him a decent bench player would hold also true for Tyler Saladino. Saladino is a better infielder (surely on the left side at the least) and a better baserunner/pinch runner than Beckham. I am less confident that Saladino would be a better hitter than Beckham but it's not really much of a bar to beat. If he could hit league average against LHP he'd be a way better bench player than Beckham. While a lot of people aren't fans of Beckham as a player, my biggest gripe is the opportunity cost. We could have had Saladino and a RH defensive OF, strong RH bar or extra 5th starter type.

 

Obviously the bench isn't going to full of all stars, but you want these guys to bring at least one great quality. Jordan Danks was lost with the stick most of the time but I felt great when he came in a defensive replacement. Bonifacio isn't going to carry the offense but he has speed and flexibility. Saladino may never amount to more than 50 MLB PAs but, right now he can come off the bench and pinch run late in games and defend just as well if not better than Beckham. What does Beckham bring? Above average defense at 2B? Color me un impressed. When GMs are building their Championship team they don't pound the phone lines looking for a bench player who can't hit against any type of pitcher and turns a good double play.

 

I don't think anybody has been making this case against Beckham because of his Spring Training stats but those stats have certainly further enforced that argument if you value ST stats. The same people arguing against his utility and practicality (Eminor, shysocks, myself) can be seen doing so on the day he was signed: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=94456&st=0

 

Fortunately, to make this move, I think the Sox must think very highly of Beckham as an individual. It's not really a desirable position to be in for him, Gllaspie/Micah/Sanchez or for Robin and the coaching staff. So the Sox front office is definitely giving him a vote of confidence to handle the mental aspect of his assignment.

 

Excellent summary.

[ptatc]

ALAR? It sounds like a biology or chem experiment gone horribly wrong....we can do better!!!

The Alar ligament keeps your head from spinning too far. Is that close enough?

[ptatc]

It's pretty funny I am the one with the Gordon Beckhamobsession when all I am doing is trying to throw sense at everyone ripping him. Apparently that is what this website wants, everyone bagging on Beckham whenever they can. He isn't nearly as bad of a player as most here think. Not even close. But as was pointed out, I wanted the Sox to sign Jimenez last year, so I missed on that, but I also defended one Jose Contreras the end of 2004 until May or so of 2005 when Soxtalk wanted him traded for AJ Burnett. Beckham will be a fine back up. He won't shut anyone up, I get that. He walked the other day and instead of it being a good AB from any other player, it was "lucky" on the gamethread. Of course his nice play with good range turning a DP getting Robertson out of a jam was just about ignored as well. It's a back up infielder. He's fine in that role. People put too much into this. You aren't going to get an All Star to be a back up infielder for $2 million on the open market.

I'm with you. He's fine for a backup infielder. I don't get the hate. Is he great, no. That is why he is now a backup. RH probably picked him over other because he knew the team and the team knows he's a good guy and will be fine with being a backup.

[ptatc]

While I agree on the first sentence I can't say as much past that. Despite Hahn saying so, it's arguable he is average at 3B defensively and his bat is well below average even when platooned. I am not going to validate giving someone a bench spot based off of them becoming on expert on bunting. The things you mention that make him a decent bench player would hold also true for Tyler Saladino. Saladino is a better infielder (surely on the left side at the least) and a better baserunner/pinch runner than Beckham. I am less confident that Saladino would be a better hitter than Beckham but it's not really much of a bar to beat. If he could hit league average against LHP he'd be a way better bench player than Beckham. While a lot of people aren't fans of Beckham as a player, my biggest gripe is the opportunity cost. We could have had Saladino and a RH defensive OF, strong RH bar or extra 5th starter type.

 

Obviously the bench isn't going to full of all stars, but you want these guys to bring at least one great quality. Jordan Danks was lost with the stick most of the time but I felt great when he came in a defensive replacement. Bonifacio isn't going to carry the offense but he has speed and flexibility. Saladino may never amount to more than 50 MLB PAs but, right now he can come off the bench and pinch run late in games and defend just as well if not better than Beckham. What does Beckham bring? Above average defense at 2B? Color me un impressed. When GMs are building their Championship team they don't pound the phone lines looking for a bench player who can't hit against any type of pitcher and turns a good double play.

 

I don't think anybody has been making this case against Beckham because of his Spring Training stats but those stats have certainly further enforced that argument if you value ST stats. The same people arguing against his utility and practicality (Eminor, shysocks, myself) can be seen doing so on the day he was signed: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=94456&st=0

 

Fortunately, to make this move, I think the Sox must think very highly of Beckham as an individual. It's not really a desirable position to be in for him, Gllaspie/Micah/Sanchez or for Robin and the coaching staff. So the Sox front office is definitely giving him a vote of confidence to handle the mental aspect of his assignment.

MLB teams rarely take a player with no MLB experience and make him a bench player. The pressure and adjustments to the MLB are tough enough without sitting most days.

[ptatc]

I'd rather take chances at guys who actually offer upside than going conservative with a Beckham type. He can't hit LHP/RHP, can't pinch run and him being this great defender at 3B is baseless conjecture. The bench has versatility whether they carried Beckham or Saladino. Hahn told me himself the Saladino is the third best SS in the organization and that's behind Alexei and a "plus-plus" fielder in Rondon. So if you like versatility Saladino would better serve your taste. Beckham has barely played 100 innings away from 2B after '09. Saladino hasn't played much away from SS other than 2B (because he's very good at the position, a position GB couldn't cut it at mind you) but has played 1B, 3B and worked in the OF.

 

As far as value, I'll take Saladino at 500K over Beckham at 2 million.

 

I don't know Jason I feel like you're reaching here. When we have to guess on the intangible value Beckham brings it's pushing it. What intangibles does he bring? The ability to be good with the media? The ability to feel much better at the plate every year? The ability to change his stance and hands every few weeks? I'd rather Micah coached up by Eaton who has already been helping him along this spring.

If they have upside, you are wasting them sitting on the bench. The will never realize their "upside" sitting most days.

[chitownsportsfan]

let me also say, i am not trying to ugly here and bash Gordo or the owners group. but sometime i am wondering if the owners group are fully aware how fragile this team is without full backup options. i mean not playing favorites or looking for the right deal. this team is so freaking close.

 

Of course they are but what are you going to do? Nobody that's talented enough to be a starter is going to sign to be a backup, and a s***ty backup like Beckham costs 2 million.

 

Other than the Dodgers and Nationals and maybe the Mariners or Red Sox there isn't a single team that could survive injuries to say 2 of their top 5 players. Yea the Sox need Sale and Jose and Eaton and so on to say healthy -- but so do the vast majority of teams.

 

Nobody really has a great bench, otherwise those guys wouldn't be on the bench. Occasionally you get super teams but not very often anymore.

 

I'd be shocked if anyone in the AL won over 95 games and I think 88 will take the 2nd wildcard.

 

 

edit: they should have signed rickie weeks instead of Gordo, but Gordo has a history here and the Sox are loyal beyond belief.

Edited March 18, 2015 by chitownsportsfan

[LDF]

Of course they are but what are you going to do? Nobody that's talented enough to be a starter is going to sign to be a backup, and a s***ty backup like Beckham costs 2 million.

 

Other than the Dodgers and Nationals and maybe the Mariners or Red Sox there isn't a single team that could survive injuries to say 2 of their top 5 players. Yea the Sox need Sale and Jose and Eaton and so on to say healthy -- but so do the vast majority of teams.

 

Nobody really has a great bench, otherwise those guys wouldn't be on the bench. Occasionally you get super teams but not very often anymore.

 

I'd be shocked if anyone in the AL won over 95 games and I think 88 will take the 2nd wildcard.

 

 

edit: they should have signed rickie weeks

 

there were other options avail. options that were and will be backup next yr. as i said, i do not want to bash the owners nor beckham, but this loyalty things the owner has is a little too much sometimes.

Edited March 18, 2015 by LDF

[chitownsportsfan]

there were other options avail. options that were and will be backup next yr. as i said, i do want to bash the owners nor beckham, but this loyalty things the owner has to a little too much sometimes.

 

oh I agree in my world Paulie would have retired after a symbolic first AB last year or something like that. It's annoying. I'm a bulls fan as well, yea it's annoying.

[LDF]

oh I agree in my world Paulie would have retired after a symbolic first AB last year or something like that. It's annoying. I'm a bulls fan as well, yea it's annoying.

 

i honestly want to say, imo the sox weren't too sure of what kind of player they had in Jose A. so they needed insurance just in case, plus it gave them, the sox a nice chance to say good bye to Paulie.