The Bench

[LittleHurt05]

there were other options avail. options that were and will be backup next yr. as i said, i do not want to bash the owners nor beckham, but this loyalty things the owner has is a little too much sometimes.

 

I agree. I thought the Sox had turned a new leaf with Hahn, but the Beckham signing showed it's still kind of the same old White Sox. Might the other 25th man options suck too? Sure. But I'd rather watch someone else swing as hard as they can and pop it straight up, than see Beckham do it for the 485th time.

 

He's the poster boy for the Sox struggles the last six years and their inability to develop any position players whatsoever, yet they don't want to get rid of him

 

[LDF]

I agree. I thought the Sox had turned a new leaf with Hahn, but the Beckham signing showed it's still kind of the same old White Sox. Might the other 25th man options suck too? Sure. But I'd rather watch someone else swing as hard as they can and pop it straight up, than see Beckham do it for the 485th time.

 

He's the poster boy for the Sox struggles the last six years and their inability to develop any position players whatsoever, yet they don't want to get rid of him

 

a great post and a new thought i never thought of. i like the loyalty and no one will or can anything bad about the sox owners for this, real old time school of thought.

 

but today, this season, esp with the use of advance metrics, baseball is taking on a different approach. this team has 3 weak points now, maybe 2 depending on spring training. 1 major part is backup who can contribute, both offensively and defensively.

Edited March 18, 2015 by LDF

[Bob Sacamano]

i honestly want to say, imo the sox weren't too sure of what kind of player they had in Jose A. so they needed insurance just in case, plus it gave them, the sox a nice chance to say good bye to Paulie.

 

I agree. And Paulie didn't take at bats away from anyone important (just Dunn really).

 

I wish they would have used him more often last year. He seemed to never really pinch hit late in games (even when T-Flow was struggling like the entire middle of the season).

[GreenSox]

I'd rather take chances at guys who actually offer upside than going conservative with a Beckham type.

I agree.

But this org has loved their bad veterans for a while

[shysocks]

The same people arguing against his utility and practicality (Eminor, shysocks, myself) can be seen doing so on the day he was signed: http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...=94456&st=0

I love that the initial thread went 36 pages and turned into an argument about projections and now this one's on 12. That has to make Beckham the most debated 24th man in Sox history.

 

That lends credence to the claim that if he had spent his career with, say, the Braves and the Sox had signed him, the reaction would be far more muted. But I think the particular context around Beckham is also important because it lends symbolism. LittleHurt said it well:

 

He's the poster boy for the Sox struggles the last six years and their inability to develop any position players whatsoever, yet they don't want to get rid of him

After such a dynamic offseason, Beckham's signing just seemed lazy and lacking in creativity. Perhaps he's here because it is better to let in-house guys like Sanchez and Saladino get minor league seasoning, but I have a hard time believing either one for league minimum plus a Paulino-type sixth starter wouldn't serve the 2015 White Sox better. There's an alternate universe where Paulino was useful last year - he had upside and that's why I liked the signing at the time. The same could be said for a 2015 proxy like Brandon Beachy (another loaded name around here, and yes I know the money is not quite the same). Beckham really doesn't have that potential.

[Dick Allen]

I love that the initial thread went 36 pages and turned into an argument about projections and now this one's on 12. That has to make Beckham the most debated 24th man in Sox history.

 

That lends credence to the claim that if he had spent his career with, say, the Braves and the Sox had signed him, the reaction would be far more muted. But I think the particular context around Beckham is also important because it lends symbolism. LittleHurt said it well:

 

 

After such a dynamic offseason, Beckham's signing just seemed lazy and lacking in creativity. Perhaps he's here because it is better to let in-house guys like Sanchez and Saladino get minor league seasoning, but I have a hard time believing either one for league minimum plus a Paulino-type sixth starter wouldn't serve the 2015 White Sox better. There's an alternate universe where Paulino was useful last year - he had upside and that's why I liked the signing at the time. The same could be said for a 2015 proxy like Brandon Beachy (another loaded name around here, and yes I know the money is not quite the same). Beckham really doesn't have that potential.

Paulino had upside, but Beckham has none. That just isn't accurate. The fact is the White Sox have brought loads of bench players from other teams in the past 10 years and they have been awful, even if Soxtalk favorites. Cintron and Mackowiak right away. I know, they sucked, but the argument will be they had upside. Who cares about upside if it isn't coming out. Gordon Beckham has as much upside as any of these dopes brought in over the past years:

Cintron

Mackowiak

Erstad

Richar

Toby Hall

Kotsay

Nix

Lillibridge

Castro

Teahen

Milledge

O-Dog Hudson

Fukudome

Olmed

Tyler Greene

Casper Wells

Tekotte

 

Of all the guys they brought in, the one guy that worked out OK was Omar Vizquel. Yet none of them get the mention Beckham does if he goes 0-2 in a game the first couple weeks of spring training.

[LDF]

I love that the initial thread went 36 pages and turned into an argument about projections and now this one's on 12. That has to make Beckham the most debated 24th man in Sox history.

 

That lends credence to the claim that if he had spent his career with, say, the Braves and the Sox had signed him, the reaction would be far more muted. But I think the particular context around Beckham is also important because it lends symbolism. LittleHurt said it well:

 

 

After such a dynamic offseason, Beckham's signing just seemed lazy and lacking in creativity. Perhaps he's here because it is better to let in-house guys like Sanchez and Saladino get minor league seasoning, but I have a hard time believing either one for league minimum plus a Paulino-type sixth starter wouldn't serve the 2015 White Sox better. There's an alternate universe where Paulino was useful last year - he had upside and that's why I liked the signing at the time. The same could be said for a 2015 proxy like Brandon Beachy (another loaded name around here, and yes I know the money is not quite the same). Beckham really doesn't have that potential.

 

i won't say this is everyone opinion, but i would say this is mine. my problem again is we as fans had to live with the hype of potential that was never fulfilled. now, with how the team turn itself around, they bring back Beckham, it is like a vestige of the old way of doing things, that i thought has change. it bring frustration, and anger to the die hard fans, or may just me.

 

 

[LDF]

Paulino had upside, but Beckham has none. That just isn't accurate. The fact is the White Sox have brought loads of bench players from other teams in the past 10 years and they have been awful, even if Soxtalk favorites. Cintron and Mackowiak right away. I know, they sucked, but the argument will be they had upside. Who cares about upside if it isn't coming out. Gordon Beckham has as much upside as any of these dopes brought in over the past years:

Cintron

Mackowiak

Erstad

Richar

Toby Hall

Kotsay

Nix

Lillibridge

Castro

Teahen

Milledge

O-Dog Hudson

Fukudome

Olmed

Tyler Greene

Casper Wells

Tekotte

 

Of all the guys they brought in, the one guy that worked out OK was Omar Vizquel. Yet none of them get the mention Beckham does if he goes 0-2 in a game the first couple weeks of spring training.

 

this is going to a realm of some of my rants against the owners. i will keep it simple, for those you mention, it is all about the money. plus some lousy scouting rpts.

[Eminor3rd]

Paulino had upside, but Beckham has none. That just isn't accurate.

 

How is not accurate? Paulino was a guy with a big arm who hadn't managed to stay healthy enough to use it. The Sox thought he was finally healthy and that they could give him a shot to finally break out. Beckham is a dude with 2500 plate appearances of healthy, everyday play who just cannot hit to save his life. I suppose he technically has upside in the same way that every player in baseball technically has upside in the event that they have a miraculous moment of clarity and suddenly learn things that they never learned before. But that's so, so different than a pitcher who has the stuff but hasn't had a shot to stick on the mound yet.

 

Plus, even if you want to put Beckham and Paulino in the same boat, that just brings us back to the original point about team construction. The one area that the team has incredible depth is in the Beckham-level glove-first MI category, so if you're going to spend $2m on a depth piece, it made no sense to spend it there instead of on pitching or an OF.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[shysocks]

Paulino had upside, but Beckham has none. That just isn't accurate. The fact is the White Sox have brought loads of bench players from other teams in the past 10 years and they have been awful, even if Soxtalk favorites. Cintron and Mackowiak right away. I know, they sucked, but the argument will be they had upside. Who cares about upside if it isn't coming out. Gordon Beckham has as much upside as any of these dopes brought in over the past years:

Cintron

Mackowiak

Erstad

Richar

Toby Hall

Kotsay

Nix

Lillibridge

Castro

Teahen

Milledge

O-Dog Hudson

Fukudome

Olmed

Tyler Greene

Casper Wells

Tekotte

 

Of all the guys they brought in, the one guy that worked out OK was Omar Vizquel. Yet none of them get the mention Beckham does if he goes 0-2 in a game the first couple weeks of spring training.

Lillibridge had his moment in the sun. I'm not even arguing that Beckham gets more attention. I acknowledged as much in my last post.

 

I think we'll probably have to agree to disagree on the bolded. Beckham has 1-WAR upside, Paulino had 2 or 3 but was obviously not likely to reach it. The team's situation and their projected roles were very different as well, of course. Beckham is coming to play the bench for a team that's trying to win. Paulino was a total flyer handed a starting role for a rebuild.

[Dick Allen]

How is not accurate? Paulino was a guy with a big arm who hadn't managed to stay healthy enough to use it. The Sox thought he was finally healthy and that they could give him a shot to finally break out. Beckham is a dude with 2500 plate appearances of healthy, everyday play who just cannot hit to save his life. I suppose he technically has upside in the same way that every player in baseball technically has upside in the event that they have a miraculous moment of clarity and suddenly learn things that they never learned before. But that's so, so different than a pitcher who has the stuff but hasn't had a shot to stick on the mound yet.

2009 Beckham was great. 2010 he hit well the second half. 2011 he was bad, but he has had his moments. He was on fire last year before he totally fell apart, then regained a bit of performance with the Angels. He has hit for power . Wasn't that awful in 2013 returning from a broken wrist which zapped his power. There is upside. He can hit for power, he is good defensively, and has hit well for decent stretches in the past. To me, that is upside.

[LDF]

2009 Beckham was great. 2010 he hit well the second half. 2011 he was bad, but he has had his moments. He was on fire last year before he totally fell apart, then regained a bit of performance with the Angels. He has hit for power . Wasn't that awful in 2013 returning from a broken wrist which zapped his power. There is upside. He can hit for power, he is good defensively, and has hit well for decent stretches in the past. To me, that is upside.

 

there is degrees of being awful??

 

this should answer itself, when one tries to find, a fine thread of hope to magnify, for all to see.

Edited March 18, 2015 by LDF

[southsider2k5]

I agree. I thought the Sox had turned a new leaf with Hahn, but the Beckham signing showed it's still kind of the same old White Sox. Might the other 25th man options suck too? Sure. But I'd rather watch someone else swing as hard as they can and pop it straight up, than see Beckham do it for the 485th time.

 

He's the poster boy for the Sox struggles the last six years and their inability to develop any position players whatsoever, yet they don't want to get rid of him

 

This is it exactly.

 

The reality is the Sox don't care if Gordon stinks as 25th man. This allows Saladino and Sanchez to play every day as starters in Charlotte and work on their games. They don't want them rotting on the bench for 150 ABs over the course of a season. The other reality is that if a player is good, he wouldn't be a 25th man. No matter who you bring in to do that job, they are going to have some major holes in their game.

 

I am guessing with Gordon, the Sox went back to him because they know him, they know he won't cause problems in the clubhouse, they know his teammates like him, etc. Looking at another similar player in Jeff Keppinger, there were a few hints that he didn't meet a few of those things. The Sox like their stability, so why bring someone in from the outside who might upset the applecart?

[LDF]

This is it exactly.

 

The reality is the Sox don't care if Gordon stinks as 25th man. This allows Saladino and Sanchez to play every day as starters in Charlotte and work on their games. They don't want them rotting on the bench for 150 ABs over the course of a season. The other reality is that if a player is good, he wouldn't be a 25th man. No matter who you bring in to do that job, they are going to have some major holes in their game.

 

I am guessing with Gordon, the Sox went back to him because they know him, they know he won't cause problems in the clubhouse, they know his teammates like him, etc. Looking at another similar player in Jeff Keppinger, there were a few hints that he didn't meet a few of those things. The Sox like their stability, so why bring someone in from the outside who might upset the applecart?

 

there is that and what a very good post.

[LittleHurt05]

This is it exactly.

 

The reality is the Sox don't care if Gordon stinks as 25th man. This allows Saladino and Sanchez to play every day as starters in Charlotte and work on their games. They don't want them rotting on the bench for 150 ABs over the course of a season. The other reality is that if a player is good, he wouldn't be a 25th man. No matter who you bring in to do that job, they are going to have some major holes in their game.

 

I am guessing with Gordon, the Sox went back to him because they know him, they know he won't cause problems in the clubhouse, they know his teammates like him, etc. Looking at another similar player in Jeff Keppinger, there were a few hints that he didn't meet a few of those things. The Sox like their stability, so why bring someone in from the outside who might upset the applecart?

 

When you haven't made the playoffs in 7 years, maybe you need new horses to pull the applecart?

[Eminor3rd]

2009 Beckham was great. 2010 he hit well the second half. 2011 he was bad, but he has had his moments. He was on fire last year before he totally fell apart, then regained a bit of performance with the Angels. He has hit for power . Wasn't that awful in 2013 returning from a broken wrist which zapped his power. There is upside. He can hit for power, he is good defensively, and has hit well for decent stretches in the past. To me, that is upside.

 

I guess for me, I don't think the fact that he has had streaks of usefulness really equates to upside. Lots of guys (most, even) are streaky, so it isn't accurate ton assume that periods of good performance dictate untapped potential on their own.

 

I think you need a reason, traditionally or sabermetrically, to believe in upside. For example: guy just changed his swing, guy had a breakthrough with a new coaching staff, guy is healthy for the first time, guy learned a new pitch, guy got stronger and lost weight, guy hasn't had a chance to adjust to big-league pitching, guy has been unlucky with BABIP, guy has been unlucky with HR/FB rate, guy has shown an improved approach at the plate, guy moved to a more comfortable position, etc.

 

With Gordon, though, there really haven't been any problems. There aren't any caveats or excuses. He's had an incredibly long leash and has been relatively fortunate with health. The only thing that's really warranted tinkering is his batting stance a bit. He's just had a good, long, healthy look with very few obstacles in his way, and when you average it out, he just hasn't been able to get it done. I struggle to come up with an aspect of his game or situation that indicates there is some upside left.

 

And that's why I think Saladino is just as good for the bench role -- at least he checks the box of "we haven't seen him try at the ML level" and maybe even some of "lost time to injury." He's got some upside just because we don;t know how far he can go. It's the same reason I hold out hope for Avi Garcia in 2015 but wanted Dayan Viciedo cut at all costs. Those guys are very similar in terms of their flaws and upside (at least offensively), but I've watched Viciedo fail to adjust for 2000 plate appearances, whereas Garcia still has a shot to show me he can learn.

[Eminor3rd]

This is it exactly.

 

The reality is the Sox don't care if Gordon stinks as 25th man. This allows Saladino and Sanchez to play every day as starters in Charlotte and work on their games. They don't want them rotting on the bench for 150 ABs over the course of a season. The other reality is that if a player is good, he wouldn't be a 25th man. No matter who you bring in to do that job, they are going to have some major holes in their game.

 

I am guessing with Gordon, the Sox went back to him because they know him, they know he won't cause problems in the clubhouse, they know his teammates like him, etc. Looking at another similar player in Jeff Keppinger, there were a few hints that he didn't meet a few of those things. The Sox like their stability, so why bring someone in from the outside who might upset the applecart?

 

If we needed a right-handed infielder to fill out the bench, I wouldn't have a problem with Gordon. It's just that it was the LAST thing we needed. We really needed a similar-caliber SP or OF, but we spent money bringing back a guy whose skillset is not much different than the guys we have in AAA.

 

It really has nothing to do with Gordon personally, it's just that his services don't warrant his salary on our current roster.

[Dick Allen]

I guess for me, I don't think the fact that he has had streaks of usefulness really equates to upside. Lots of guys (most, even) are streaky, so it isn't accurate ton assume that periods of good performance dictate untapped potential on their own.

 

I think you need a reason, traditionally or sabermetrically, to believe in upside. For example: guy just changed his swing, guy had a breakthrough with a new coaching staff, guy is healthy for the first time, guy learned a new pitch, guy got stronger and lost weight, guy hasn't had a chance to adjust to big-league pitching, guy has been unlucky with BABIP, guy has been unlucky with HR/FB rate, guy has shown an improved approach at the plate, guy moved to a more comfortable position, etc.

 

With Gordon, though, there really haven't been any problems. There aren't any caveats or excuses. He's had an incredibly long leash and has been relatively fortunate with health. The only thing that's really warranted tinkering is his batting stance a bit. He's just had a good, long, healthy look with very few obstacles in his way, and when you average it out, he just hasn't been able to get it done. I struggle to come up with an aspect of his game or situation that indicates there is some upside left.

 

And that's why I think Saladino is just as good for the bench role -- at least he checks the box of "we haven't seen him try at the ML level" and maybe even some of "lost time to injury." He's got some upside just because we don;t know how far he can go. It's the same reason I hold out hope for Avi Garcia in 2015 but wanted Dayan Viciedo cut at all costs. Those guys are very similar in terms of their flaws and upside (at least offensively), but I've watched Viciedo fail to adjust for 2000 plate appearances, whereas Garcia still has a shot to show me he can learn.

They have always said Beckham is extremely hard on himself. Even Scioscia mentioned it. Mentally he has killed himself. That's the issue. When he got it going last year, he swing was short and quick and he was nailing the ball even when he was making outs. Then a couple of bad games and the swing got long, and he had no chance. If he can clear his head, and really who knows if he can, the guy has talent. We have seen it. Then things go bad and snowball. That's just as much "upside" as any player that has been mentioned the Sox should have signed besides him. The players in the 24th or 25th roster spot making $2 million in 2015 have tons of warts. You just have to hope something clicks. The Sox know at the very least, he's a good team guy, he can spell guys with the glove on the infield where they are very vulernable defensively, and if he hits, that's gravy.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Dick Allen

[Chisoxfn]

They have always said Beckham is extremely hard on himself. Even Scioscia mentioned it. Mentally he has killed himself. That's the issue. When he got it going last year, he swing was short and quick and he was nailing the ball even when he was making outs. Then a couple of bad games and the swing got long, and he had no chance. If he can clear his head, and really who knows if he can, the guy has talent. We have seen it. Then things go bad and snowball. That's just as much "upside" as any player that has been mentioned the Sox should have signed besides him. The players in the 24th or 25th roster spot making $2 million in 2015 have tons of warts. You just have to hope something clicks. The Sox know at the very least, he's a good team guy, he can spell guys with the glove on the infield where they are very vulernable defensively, and if he hits, that's gravy.

Guy is a former very high first round pick who was extremely well thought of and had some brief success in the majors. By definition he has much more upside than almost all of the other guys people have gotten excited about. Again, I'm not saying we should get excited about him (I'm not excited about Beckham but think he's fine as a backup and I think if someone went down to an injury, I'd want to know that Sanchez and Saladino are getting their experience in the minors and developing so that they could potentially fill in for that starter job and we can see if they have that "upside" vs. letting them sit on the bench which is an extremely difficult thing to do for a young player).

 

I think most every 24th/25th guy on your roster is going to have significant warts. Most of the top prospects aren't that 24th/25th guy, they are either getting regular at bats in the minors or getting regular at bats in the majors.

[SCCWS]

When you haven't made the playoffs in 7 years, maybe you need new horses to pull the applecart?

 

 

Agree. Carl Everett had a history of upsetting the applecart. He also played a key role in 2005.

[ptatc]

Is it without precedence? Saladino would be the absolute 25th man on the roster. So essentially, Tyler Saladino would be replacing Leury Garcia, a guy who started his major league career on the bench with Texas.

 

 

I was speaking on upside relative to their role.

 

You don't treat Tyler Saladino like you would a 2009 Gordon Beckham. He's ostensibly a prospect but you're not going to worry about reaching his upside. If he could hit league average against lefties then he's a better option than Beckham. He's a better defender and he could pinch run. We know Beckham can't hit MLB pitching but we don't know whether Saladino can. I'd rather we had found out how Tyler Saladino would respond to a small role making the minimum and spend the money where it could better fit the team.

I agree with the fact that saladino probably has more talent. Probably only because he hasn't shown it in the mlb. However, I go back to my poi t that he will most likely struggle to get acclimated to the mlb as most rookies do especially ones who don't play much. This will make him less valuable as his play will be below an established player used to this role. So for this season if the sox want a bench player. Beckham is probably the better option.

Playing to your capabilities in the mlb is more about the mental adjustments than physical abilities. This is More true for a lesser talented individual. Of course I coud be totally wrong but I think it is the safer way to go to get contributions from a bench player.

[southsider2k5]

When you haven't made the playoffs in 7 years, maybe you need new horses to pull the applecart?

 

Which is exactly what the franchise has done over the last year and a half. Gordon Beckham himself has gone from a starter and #2 hitter, to fighting for the 25th man on the roster.

[Señor Ding-Dong]

I am guessing with Gordon, the Sox went back to him because they know him, they know he won't cause problems in the clubhouse, they know his teammates like him, etc. Looking at another similar player in Jeff Keppinger, there were a few hints that he didn't meet a few of those things. The Sox like their stability, so why bring someone in from the outside who might upset the applecart?

That's a good point that I hadn't considered. If nothing else, Beckham won't cause any problems in the clubhouse and may actually be an asset in that regard.

 

The reality is the Sox don't care if Gordon stinks as 25th man. This allows Saladino and Sanchez to play every day as starters in Charlotte and work on their games. They don't want them rotting on the bench for 150 ABs over the course of a season. The other reality is that if a player is good, he wouldn't be a 25th man. No matter who you bring in to do that job, they are going to have some major holes in their game.

Still, given we're in win-now mode, I say to hell with Sanchez and/or Saladino's long-term development and go with one of them over Beckham if they're indeed better (which I believe they are). Their ceilings appear to be nothing more than backup utility infielders anyway. Sanchez could possibly be an average or so starter at 2B if everything goes right.

[LDF]

That's a good point that I hadn't considered. If nothing else, Beckham won't cause any problems in the clubhouse and may actually be an asset in that regard.

 

Still, given we're in win-now mode, I say to hell with Sanchez and/or Saladino's long-term development and go with one of them over Beckham if they're indeed better (which I believe they are). Their ceilings appear to be nothing more than backup utility infielders anyway. Sanchez could possibly be an average or so starter at 2B if everything goes right.

 

bingo, my thought as a last resort.

[LittleHurt05]

Which is exactly what the franchise has done over the last year and a half. Gordon Beckham himself has gone from a starter and #2 hitter, to fighting for the 25th man on the roster.

 

Yet they felt the need to bring him back after shipping him off. Just accept it was a failed draft pick and move on. He's gonna start moving into Roberto Alomar territory. KW always gets his man.