Forbes 2015 Baseball valuations out...

[southsider2k5]

White Sox are valued at $975 million (up from $695m last year), had revenues of $227 million, and a profit of $31.9 million in 2014.

 

Revenues were actually up $17 million in 2014, from $210m in 2013. Reading between the lines, if you take out the new $25 million from MLB's TV contract, revenues were down again last year.

 

Using the numbers provided, it also means the White Sox cut expenses from about $213 million in 2013, to about $195 million in 2014, accounting for a small majority of the profits from 2014. (~56%).

 

Other interesting notes is that on top of attendance being down, they also had the 3rd lowest TV ratings in all of baseball.

 

http://www.forbes.com/teams/chicago-white-sox/

[bmags]

White Sox are valued at $975 million (up from $695m last year), had revenues of $227 million, and a profit of $31.9 million in 2014.

 

Revenues were actually up $17 million in 2014, from $210m in 2013. Reading between the lines, if you take out the new $25 million from MLB's TV contract, revenues were down again last year.

 

Using the numbers provided, it also means the White Sox cut expenses from about $213 million in 2013, to about $195 million in 2014, accounting for a small majority of the profits from 2014. (~56%).

 

Other interesting notes is that on top of attendance being down, they also had the 3rd lowest TV ratings in all of baseball.

 

http://www.forbes.com/teams/chicago-white-sox/

 

Looks like Forbes is trying to adjust after being off so miserably the last few sales.

[NorthSideSox72]

If revenues were $227M, and total costs around $195M... the player payroll last year was $91M for the major leagues. If you do some basic math on the minor leaguers (whose salaries are paid by the parent club), that's about another $4M or so... That means player payroll as a whole was about $95M of that $195M in costs, or nearly half. That leaves the other half for every other cost of running the team, including personnel salaries and benefits for non-players (incl mgr/coaches, front office, etc.), facilities costs, and everything the heck else. So 30-or-so guys' salaries are half the cost.

 

Also interesting - the White Sox acquired majority ownership of their Advanced A club (Winston-Salem Dash). I wonder what impact if any that had.

 

And finally, $31M profit... on the one hand, over 10% margin is good... on the other, you can see why just that "one more player" or "one more contract" can represent a real problem at times if they aren't careful.

 

[southsider2k5]

If revenues were $227M, and total costs around $195M... the player payroll last year was $91M for the major leagues. If you do some basic math on the minor leaguers (whose salaries are paid by the parent club), that's about another $4M or so... That means player payroll as a whole was about $95M of that $195M in costs, or nearly half. That leaves the other half for every other cost of running the team, including personnel salaries and benefits for non-players (incl mgr/coaches, front office, etc.), facilities costs, and everything the heck else. So 30-or-so guys' salaries are half the cost.

 

Also interesting - the White Sox acquired majority ownership of their Advanced A club (Winston-Salem Dash). I wonder what impact if any that had.

 

And finally, $31M profit... on the one hand, over 10% margin is good... on the other, you can see why just that "one more player" or "one more contract" can represent a real problem at times if they aren't careful.

 

One more thing I neglected to post...

 

$31.9 million profit estimated, right?

 

Check this out:

 

2015 estimated player payroll $111.5 million

2014 player payroll $ 90 million.

 

At least $21 million of it has already been spent.

[LDF]

One more thing I neglected to post...

 

$31.9 million profit estimated, right?

 

Check this out:

 

2015 estimated player payroll $111.5 million

2014 player payroll $ 90 million.

 

At least $21 million of it has already been spent.

 

you are really not adding the tv money into that revenue. that deal is more than 150+ million. we had this whole conversation already with some one else providing a link to the tv / cable deal.

[southsider2k5]

you are really not adding the tv money into that revenue. that deal is more than 150+ million. we had this whole conversation already with some one else providing a link to the tv / cable deal.

TV money is already factored in, and accounted for in the profit margin.

[LDF]

TV money is already factored in, and accounted for in the profit margin.

 

do they have the actual break down of the profit margin, there is a lot of profits the team hide form this type of search. thru other sub companies.

 

anyway, pls think about this, the tv deal is worth as i said, more than 150 mil, that mean in all other ways, the sox only made, what, 60 mil in other forms of profits. if you say yes, then how were they able to survive all these yrs, esp during the 90's when there players salary was close to 130+.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Balta1701]

you are really not adding the tv money into that revenue. that deal is more than 150+ million. we had this whole conversation already with some one else providing a link to the tv / cable deal.

That new Fox contract money should have counted as money for last year and it should have been about $25 million.

 

Basically 85% of operating profit of the team last year, in the Forbes numbers, was that money.

[LDF]

That new Fox contract money should have counted as money for last year and it should have been about $25 million.

 

Basically 85% of operating profit of the team last year, in the Forbes numbers, was that money.

again, where is the margin list of profits.

 

let me understand this, r u saying only 26 mil was the tv money??

[Balta1701]

again, where is the margin list of profits.

 

let me understand this, r u saying only 26 mil was the tv money??

$25 million-ish should be "new TV money". Fox TV signed a new contract with MLB that started in 2014. Every team in MLB should have gotten $25 million in "new money" compared to 2013 from that new TV contract on top of what they got beforehand.

 

That's on top of the TV money they already had. That money is already balanced into the revenue and expense streams. In fact, the new FOX TV money probably just offset some of the losses from advertisers leaving a team that had been a loser 2 years in a row.

[LDF]

$25 million-ish should be "new TV money". Fox TV signed a new contract with MLB that started in 2014. Every team in MLB should have gotten $25 million in "new money" compared to 2013 from that new TV contract on top of what they got beforehand.

 

That's on top of the TV money they already had. That money is already balanced into the revenue and expense streams. In fact, the new FOX TV money probably just offset some of the losses from advertisers leaving a team that had been a loser 2 years in a row.

 

 

2 things, i need to get going, i will continue this later.... ok.

earlier someone posted a link to what the sox has made and will make on the combine tv deals. if someone can find that link. fne..... but i do have to go...

 

sorry/

[Balta1701]

2 things, i need to get going, i will continue this later.... ok.

earlier someone posted a link to what the sox has made and will make on the combine tv deals. if someone can find that link. fne..... but i do have to go...

 

sorry/

According to the Forbes numbers, the White Sox's total revenue was $227 million. $43 million of that came directly from ticket sales.

 

The remaining $183 million is produced through TV revenues such as the deals with local TV affiliates and the national affiliates, league revenue sharing (things like the Extra innings package), and advertisers that have deals with the White Sox.

 

That $183 million probably includes the $120 million in "Total TV revenues" you're referring to or something like that.

[caulfield12]

If you look at the first page from the other thread....you'd have to adjust for the ticket sales from back in 2010-11 cycle

 

 

Roughly $65 million from local/regional tv rights, then $40 million from national media rights split/share (ESPN, TBS/TNT, Fox, etc.)....that's $110 million

 

You'd have to adjust from that time when the average ticket price was closer to $40 (it's got to be $30ish now) and the attendance was roughly 27,000 per game....to what we did last year, 21,000.

 

That would mean a drop down to the $60-70 million range (attendance/tickets alone, in isolation), compared to the $85 million or so 3-4 years ago.

 

Essentially, the whole equation has been rebalanced again by that $25 million from the EXTRA $25 million attributable to MLB's NATIONAL tv contract/s.

 

Of course, the White Sox have also lost an additional 5-6 major sponsors over that time...and I'm not 100% sure what's going on recently with the stadium name/US Cellular controversy.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

do they have the actual break down of the profit margin, there is a lot of profits the team hide form this type of search. thru other sub companies.

 

anyway, pls think about this, the tv deal is worth as i said, more than 150 mil, that mean in all other ways, the sox only made, what, 60 mil in other forms of profits. if you say yes, then how were they able to survive all these yrs, esp during the 90's when there players salary was close to 130+.

 

I will say this much. Forbes built an empire analyzing companies much larger and more complex than the entirety of MLB, let alone the individual franchises. Their numbers aren't going to be perfect, but there are going to be very much in the ballpark, and WAY closer than anything the teams/league will admit to.

[southsider2k5]

$25 million-ish should be "new TV money". Fox TV signed a new contract with MLB that started in 2014. Every team in MLB should have gotten $25 million in "new money" compared to 2013 from that new TV contract on top of what they got beforehand.

 

That's on top of the TV money they already had. That money is already balanced into the revenue and expense streams. In fact, the new FOX TV money probably just offset some of the losses from advertisers leaving a team that had been a loser 2 years in a row.

 

Which is exactly why I mentioned, if you took out the new $25 million from the TV contract, our revenues were down again YoY.

[caulfield12]

Wow....according to Balta's numbers, our ticket sales revenues have almost dipped by 45-50% over the last 3-4 seasons due to

 

 

1) The fall of nearly 25% from 27,000 to 21,000 per game

 

2) What would have to be a decrease in the average ticket (value) sold from Top 5-6 in the game to close to the $20-21 range (from all the way up around $38.65 per ticket).

 

 

36,511 was our average way back the year after the World Series title.

 

Essentially, a 40% fall in attendance over the course of a decade, mixed in with ticket prices being slashed nearly in half. Not exactly a formula for success or profitability...luckily, tv/parking/concessions/favorable stadium lease deal have saved Reinsdorf's bacon.

 

 

It's just astounding we can be a bottom 3 television ratings team (and you know Houston was the worst) with two superstars in Abreu and Sale. For a good part of last season, maybe the first four or four and 1/2 months, the White Sox were very competitive and entertaining, with the obvious exception of the bullpen/closing out games.

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Wow....according to Balta's numbers, our ticket sales revenues have almost dipped by 45-50% over the last 3-4 seasons due to

 

 

1) The fall of nearly 25% from 27,000 to 21,000 per game

 

2) What would have to be a decrease in the average ticket (value) sold from Top 5-6 in the game to close to the $20-21 range (from all the way up around $38.65 per ticket).

They also hugely cut the ticket prices in there, so that's the 2nd part.

[Balta1701]

Which is exactly why I mentioned, if you took out the new $25 million from the TV contract, our revenues were down again YoY.

Not just down, down by $10 million over 2013. Team lost money in 2013 and had to cut $15 million from payroll and get an extra $25 million in TV money to get to where they were last year.

 

If it weren't for that extra TV money, the White Sox would likely be cutting payroll this year.

[caulfield12]

Not just down, down by $10 million over 2013. Team lost money in 2013 and had to cut $15 million from payroll and get an extra $25 million in TV money to get to where they were last year.

 

If it weren't for that extra TV money, the White Sox would likely be cutting payroll this year.

 

 

That's also where you have to factor in the loss of nearly every major sponsorship deal the team had from 2006-2011.

 

Gold Coast Tickets, Bullpen Sports bar, Chevy Fundamentals deck (I guess it's XFINITY now), the Gibson's restaurant group platform they were running, 7-11 stores (7:11 game start time), Pontiac (eventually replaced by Comcast), etc., not being able to derive new revenue over the stadium name (US Cellular), etc.

 

Part of it was the 2008 economic crisis catching up before the beginning of the 2010 season.

 

The offers they were getting the last two years apparently were insulting or pennies on the dollar, bargain-basement prices, so they just decided to wait for more favorable conditions in terms of the team's competitiveness level.

Edited March 25, 2015 by caulfield12

[WBWSF]

I have no doubt that Forbes is wrong on the value of the White Sox franchise. When the day comes and the White Sox are sold, they will sell for way over $1 BILLION dollars. With the stadium deal they have and a new TV deal coming up the franchise will always be making money.

[LDF]

They also hugely cut the ticket prices in there, so that's the 2nd part.

 

balta, i am using this post to say, i am or will be back to discussion, i am going back to look an old thread. if i came across angry or like a jerk, i am sorry. i didn't mean to be > to you or and anyone else.

[LDF]

balta, i am using this post to say, i am or will be back to discussion, i am going back to look an old thread. if i came across angry or like a jerk, i am sorry. i didn't mean to be > to you or and anyone else.

 

ok, i found the site, the biz of baseball, it explained the breakdown of the tv deals, there are several heading in the total media deal. local tv/cable, regional tv/cable/ internet/, nationals tv/cable/internet. this total come to a substantial more than was org being listed.

 

a poster wrote with the link

 

http://bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=...&Itemid=203

 

This breaks down the numbers for the new national baseball contracts.

 

They essentially doubled from 2013, with all teams previously receiving $24 million bumping up to $50 million last season just from those three networks alone.

 

I would imagine the other $28 million has to be coming from MLB as a 1/30th share of all their various media properties like MLBTV, Gameday Audio, At-Bat, etc.

 

 

 

Angels. Rangers. Mariners. Cardinals. Somewhere in that zone is where the White Sox should be for their tv rights deal. At any rate, we shouldn't be looking up to the Tigers for too much longer.

 

This post has been edited by caulfield12: Jan 26, 2015 -> 05:50 PM

 

 

I'll quote my own post $65 million (Comcast/WGN/WCIU) + $50 million (ESPN/FOX/TBS, etc.) + $28 million (revenue shared from MLB Media)=$143 million

 

That $78 million is guaranteed to every team now....and the most lucrative deals are all well over $100 million per season for the regional sports networks (and then there are the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Rangers, etc.). I think the Mariners went to $118 per year with their new deal, so they started the 2014 season already $53 million ahead of the White Sox (hence, the Cano deal).

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...94552&st=45

 

now according to the valuation breakdown, forbe which is a great source of info, but is also limited to what is not part of the company, the company which is describe in and by mlb. on;y list what the sox owners discloses. there are sub-companies that does not disclose their books.

 

the last time i had this discussion, i may have made some real great posters really mad at me, maybe b/c of the style i write or talk. i really mean no offense and i hope someone can prove me wrong.

 

i don't mind a total biiitch slap every once in a while.

 

peace

[caulfield12]

ok, i found the site, the biz of baseball, it explained the breakdown of the tv deals, there are several heading in the total media deal. local tv/cable, regional tv/cable/ internet/, nationals tv/cable/internet. this total come to a substantial more than was org being listed.

 

a poster wrote with the link

 

 

 

http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?sh...94552&st=45

 

now according to the valuation breakdown, forbe which is a great source of info, but is also limited to what is not part of the company, the company which is describe in and by mlb. on;y list what the sox owners discloses. there are sub-companies that does not disclose their books.

 

the last time i had this discussion, i may have made some real great posters really mad at me, maybe b/c of the style i write or talk. i really mean no offense and i hope someone can prove me wrong.

 

i don't mind a total biiitch slap every once in a while.

 

peace

 

 

That was me...

 

and, yes, you're right, finding or placing the exact value of the Comcast deal is BEYOND tricky, because there are two entities that are separate (Bulls and Sox) with the same owner.

 

So that's 40%, 20% to Cubs, 20% Blackhawks and 20% Comcast Company if I remember correctly..

[southsider2k5]

I have no doubt that Forbes is wrong on the value of the White Sox franchise. When the day comes and the White Sox are sold, they will sell for way over $1 BILLION dollars. With the stadium deal they have and a new TV deal coming up the franchise will always be making money.

 

A billion dollars would be right about half of what the Dodgers sold for. That doesn't seem too far off to me.

[Balta1701]

A billion dollars would be right about half of what the Dodgers sold for. That doesn't seem too far off to me.

And it seems only about 3% off to Forbes too.