How do the White Sox stack up - payroll vs MLB

[caulfield12]

"I think the White Sox just make smarter business decisions than most teams."

 

Really? And how do you arrive at this conclusion? Based on the club's success? The Sox have one playoff appearance in the last DECADE since the WS in '05, and that appearance lasted all of one minute. And the 24 years prior to '05, this current Sox ownership saw their team reach the postseason a measly three times, combining for just three wins in those appearances. Real "smarter business decisions" contributing to that unheralded record, I must say. And as of today, this supposed record of "smarter business decisions" has this big market team almost dead last in attendance and TV ratings as we speak, and a team payroll going into this season almost identical to that of the Kansas City Royals AND Minnesota Twins, and less than that of the Reds, Blue Jays, Mariners, AND former Montreal Expos, the Nationals. But god are we "smart", we managed to get Sale and Abreu to sign for under market. Whoopie...for the investors!!

 

 

Well, we still won the World Series and there are like 9-10 that haven't, haha.

 

We spent a ton of money from 2006-2013, albeit inefficiently for the most part.

 

We've consistently been outmaneuvered and out-strategized on the pr/marketing front.

 

If only Mike Illitch had been the CEO....we'd have Justin Verlander and Miggy Cabrera on contracts until they reached Social Security eligibility.

 

You're right, I don't think we can overpraise JR and company...they stabilized the ship from the Veeck Era, let's just say that. Got the new stadium built, albeit it was a disappointment and have now rectified that to the best of their ability but original perceptions are still hard to walk back.

 

In all fairness, if the 1994 strike doesn't occur (and that's also 50% at Reinsdorf's doorstep), things probably would have turned out differently...say we won the World Series THAT season. Another couple of things we can point to are the lower draft budgets (going underslot and putting more into MLB ops) and the Dominican Disaster. We've been pretty much shut out of that country for going on ten years now, so it's actually pretty remarkable we've still managed to do "fairly well."

 

We can trot out that...the White Sox didn't have a Top 10 draft pick for XX number of years stat...that we were something like 3-4th-5th over any long period of time behind the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Braves over the last 20-30 years in overall win-loss record. Basically, saying we've been good at being decent/mediocre/middling but very rarely breaking out of the pack and having a chance for real post-season success.

 

There was 1959, 1967, 1977, 1983, 1989-1994 (injection of all that exciting talent and new stadium as well), 2000, 2003, 2005, 2008 (doomed when Quentin went down with hamate self-inflicted injury), 2010 (26-5 stretch) and 2012.

 

And that's pretty much been it, other than the 1900-1920 teams.

[Vance Law]

Maybe the luxury tax money should just go directly to the smallest market teams with the requirement it is spent on players.

[LDF]

Well, we still won the World Series and there are like 9-10 that haven't, haha.

 

We spent a ton of money from 2006-2013, albeit inefficiently for the most part.

 

We've consistently been outmaneuvered and out-strategized on the pr/marketing front.

 

If only Mike Illitch had been the CEO....we'd have Justin Verlander and Miggy Cabrera on contracts until they reached Social Security eligibility.

 

You're right, I don't think we can overpraise JR and company...they stabilized the ship from the Veeck Era, let's just say that. Got the new stadium built, albeit it was a disappointment and have now rectified that to the best of their ability but original perceptions are still hard to walk back.

 

In all fairness, if the 1994 strike doesn't occur (and that's also 50% at Reinsdorf's doorstep), things probably would have turned out differently...say we won the World Series THAT season. Another couple of things we can point to are the lower draft budgets (going underslot and putting more into MLB ops) and the Dominican Disaster. We've been pretty much shut out of that country for going on ten years now, so it's actually pretty remarkable we've still managed to do "fairly well."

 

We can trot out that...the White Sox didn't have a Top 10 draft pick for XX number of years stat...that we were something like 3-4th-5th over any long period of time behind the Yankees, Red Sox, Cardinals, Braves over the last 20-30 years in overall win-loss record. Basically, saying we've been good at being decent/mediocre/middling but very rarely breaking out of the pack and having a chance for real post-season success.

 

There was 1959, 1967, 1977, 1983, 1989-1994 (injection of all that exciting talent and new stadium as well), 2000, 2003, 2005, 2008 (doomed when Quentin went down with hamate self-inflicted injury), 2010 (26-5 stretch) and 2012.

 

And that's pretty much been it, other than the 1900-1920 teams.

 

yeah you are right about the bolded, look at how much the team is worth now.... they did great job to increase the value of the team.

Edited April 4, 2015 by LDF

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

25.5 M between Ricky Nolasco and Ervin Santana. 10.5 M on Toriiiiiiiiii.

 

Be sure to thank God for Sale, Quintana, and Abreu's contracts every night before bed.

 

And Eaton for that matter if he plays like last year and can stay injury free. But we can say the same about the other names you mentioned also.

[max power]

yeah you are right about the bolded, look at how much the team is worth now.... they did great job to increase the value of the team.

The widespread use of the DVR did that.

[Marky Mark]

If the dodgers only had the 5 highest paid guys on the team, they'd still be the 13th highest paid team in baseball.

[Panerista]

"I think the White Sox just make smarter business decisions than most teams."

 

Really? And how do you arrive at this conclusion? Based on the club's overall success? The Sox have one playoff appearance in the last DECADE since the WS in '05, and that appearance lasted all of one minute. And the 24 years prior to '05, this current Sox ownership saw their team reach the postseason a measly three times, combining for just three wins in those appearances. Real "smarter business decisions" contributing to that unheralded record, I must say. And as of today, this supposed record of "smarter business decisions" has this big market team almost dead last in the Majors in attendance and TV ratings as we speak. Not to mention, but a team payroll going into this season almost identical to that of the Kansas City Royals AND Minnesota Twins, and less than that of the Reds, Blue Jays, Mariners, AND former Montreal Expos, the Nationals. But god are we "smart", we managed to get Sale and Abreu to sign for under market. Whoopie...for the investors!! Not so much for we, the fans.

Stop living in the past. The current Sox organization is brilliant. The core of the team is locked up in team friendly contracts going forward.

 

Rick Hahn isn't just smart, he's brilliant. It was Kenny Williams who continually sold his soul trying to "win now".

[LDF]

Stop living in the past. The current Sox organization is brilliant. The core of the team is locked up in team friendly contracts going forward.

 

Rick Hahn isn't just smart, he's brilliant. It was Kenny Williams who continually sold his soul trying to "win now".

 

some of what he said still holds true. but i am with you, under a new captain so to speak, the team has a lot to look forward to. but the past is still there.

[Thad Bosley]

Stop living in the past. The current Sox organization is brilliant. The core of the team is locked up in team friendly contracts going forward.

 

Rick Hahn isn't just smart, he's brilliant. It was Kenny Williams who continually sold his soul trying to "win now".

Lol - for your information, "current Sox organization" = past Sox organization. Jerry + Kenny + Rick = Jerry + Kenny + Rick

 

Don't get me wrong - it would appear this triumvirate, after many years of trying, have been making better decisions in the past year and a half or so then they have in a long while. However, I wouldn't assign "brilliance" to anything just yet. I prefer to be "results oriented" when it comes to Jerry Reinsdorf-run baseball organizations, based on three and a half decades worth of unimpressive results, including those of the most recent decade.

 

For me, I will only declare "brilliance" once I see this team finally in some state of sustainable success. That means win, and win often. Make it to the postseason in consecutive seasons for the first time in our lifetimes. Win and invigorate a dormant fan base which will then translate into more fannies in the seats. That's what I mean when I say "results oriented". Once they accomplish that, I'll join the "current Sox organization is brilliant" bandwagon faster than Grant took Richmond!!

[Jerksticks]

For pete's sake what is wrong with some of you and your memory? It's like you all forget the fact that we HAD a core from 2000-2013. We had really good players! It just didn't work out! "KW consistently sold the farm blah blah". Well no s***! We had our superstars and we had a shot to win the division every year! We looked damn good on paper every year! Why not just admit that TCQ and JFP's freak injuries spoiled everything? Why not just admit that Adam Dunn crumbling out of nowhere spoiled years. It looked good on paper. We had superstars at key positions.

 

Then they got old, the window closed so here we are. The same 3 guys are running the same show. And damn did they do a nice job building a fresh core over the last years, just like they did a damn good job supplementing the team to keep the competitive window open throughout PK's entire career. Who drafted Chris Sale? Who put together the team that won 20 out of 25 in 2010 but fell short? Blaming KW like that was a different regime is absolutely ludicrous. We swung and missed all but one year but we swung damn hard. I think you could argue the drafting sucked in the 2000s but we've shored that up a bit. Overall though, not bad fellas. Keep up the good work. This year looks to be exciting just like every year since 2000.

[LDF]

Lol - for your information, "current Sox organization" = past Sox organization. Jerry + Kenny + Rick = Jerry + Kenny + Rick

 

Don't get me wrong - it would appear this triumvirate, after many years of trying, have been making better decisions in the past year and a half or so then they have in a long while. However, I wouldn't assign "brilliance" to anything just yet. I prefer to be "results oriented" when it comes to Jerry Reinsdorf-run baseball organizations, based on three and a half decades worth of unimpressive results, including those of the most recent decade.

 

For me, I will only declare "brilliance" once I see this team finally in some state of sustainable success. That means win, and win often. Make it to the postseason in consecutive seasons for the first time in our lifetimes. Win and invigorate a dormant fan base which will then translate into more fannies in the seats. That's what I mean when I say "results oriented". Once they accomplish that, I'll join the "current Sox organization is brilliant" bandwagon faster than Grant took Richmond!!

 

BRAVO ...... i have been trying to play nice, sox b-ball is right around the corner.

 

where have you a couple of weeks ago, when i needed help in this argument ....

Edited April 5, 2015 by LDF

[Panerista]

For pete's sake what is wrong with some of you and your memory? It's like you all forget the fact that we HAD a core from 2000-2013. We had really good players! It just didn't work out! "KW consistently sold the farm blah blah". Well no s***! We had our superstars and we had a shot to win the division every year! We looked damn good on paper every year! Why not just admit that TCQ and JFP's freak injuries spoiled everything? Why not just admit that Adam Dunn crumbling out of nowhere spoiled years. It looked good on paper. We had superstars at key positions.

This Hawk Harrelson type of argument doesn't work for me and it shouldn't work for you. The White Sox did not have a chance to win every year. There was always some ungodly hole that couldn't be filled in free agency with the corpse formerly known as Ken Griffey Jr.

 

Then they got old, the window closed so here we are. The same 3 guys are running the same show. And damn did they do a nice job building a fresh core over the last years, just like they did a damn good job supplementing the team to keep the competitive window open throughout PK's entire career. Who drafted Chris Sale? Who put together the team that won 20 out of 25 in 2010 but fell short? Blaming KW like that was a different regime is absolutely ludicrous. We swung and missed all but one year but we swung damn hard. I think you could argue the drafting sucked in the 2000s but we've shored that up a bit. Overall though, not bad fellas. Keep up the good work. This year looks to be exciting just like every year since 2000.

When you change general managers, from a baseball standpoint, you change regimes. Period. What Rick Hahn wants, Rick Hahn gets. It is a totally new regime.

 

Also, you can't expect to "win every year" and not draft well. Go back and look at Williams' draft history. Chris Sale and Gio Gonzalez are boats in a sea of bad. Drafting Chris Sale was great, and Kenny Williams is a good evaluator of talent, but Rick Hahn signed him to his current contract, which is so team friendly for a player of his age and talent.

 

If you can't tell this team is so much differently run under Rick Hahn, I can't help you. Maybe watch more games?

[Dick Allen]

This Hawk Harrelson type of argument doesn't work for me and it shouldn't work for you. The White Sox did not have a chance to win every year. There was always some ungodly hole that couldn't be filled in free agency with the corpse formerly known as Ken Griffey Jr.

 

 

When you change general managers, from a baseball standpoint, you change regimes. Period. What Rick Hahn wants, Rick Hahn gets. It is a totally new regime.

 

Also, you can't expect to "win every year" and not draft well. Go back and look at Williams' draft history. Chris Sale and Gio Gonzalez are boats in a sea of bad. Drafting Chris Sale was great, and Kenny Williams is a good evaluator of talent, but Rick Hahn signed him to his current contract, which is so team friendly for a player of his age and talent.

 

If you can't tell this team is so much differently run under Rick Hahn, I can't help you. Maybe watch more games?

There was an interview with KW a couple of weeks ago where he stated he kind of misses the interaction with other GMs, but his new position gives him an opportunity to have a life, and he enjoys the fact that he still has final say. And Hahn has been vetoed , i read where Avi Garcia is KW's boy. Hahn wanted Middlebrooks.

 

The reason it is run differently is because the team was in different places. Before the Sox signed Dunn, and brought back AJ and Paulie, KW proposed a rebuild to JR.

 

It obviously won't be exactly the same, but Hahn still reports to KW and if KW thinks its a bad idea, Hahn's idea gets the kabosh. If KW was still the GM, he would have gone the rebuild route. I am pretty sure the same players would have been drafted if KW was still the GM as well. Hahn has been great. I would love to see him run his own show. But the fact is he doesn't.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Dick Allen

[LDF]

There was an interview with KW a couple of weeks ago where he stated he kind of misses the interaction with other GMs, but his new position gives him an opportunity to have a life, and he enjoys the fact that he still has final say. And Hahn has been vetoed , i read where Avi Garcia is KW's boy. Hahn wanted Middlebrooks.

 

The reason it is run differently is because the team was in different places. Before the Sox signed Dunn, and brought back AJ and Paulie, KW proposed a rebuild to JR.

 

It obviously won't be exactly the same, but Hahn still reports to KW and if KW thinks its a bad idea, Hahn's idea gets the kabosh. If KW was still the GM, he would have gone the rebuild route. I am pretty sure the same players would have been drafted if KW was still the GM as well. Hahn has been great. I would love to see him run his own show. But the fact is he doesn't.

 

nice post. so in other words, they both make the perfect couple as it stands now. the yin/yang of this current team we are seeing.

[LDF]

This Hawk Harrelson type of argument doesn't work for me and it shouldn't work for you. The White Sox did not have a chance to win every year. There was always some ungodly hole that couldn't be filled in free agency with the corpse formerly known as Ken Griffey Jr.

 

 

When you change general managers, from a baseball standpoint, you change regimes. Period. What Rick Hahn wants, Rick Hahn gets. It is a totally new regime.

 

Also, you can't expect to "win every year" and not draft well. Go back and look at Williams' draft history. Chris Sale and Gio Gonzalez are boats in a sea of bad. Drafting Chris Sale was great, and Kenny Williams is a good evaluator of talent, but Rick Hahn signed him to his current contract, which is so team friendly for a player of his age and talent.

 

If you can't tell this team is so much differently run under Rick Hahn, I can't help you. Maybe watch more games?

I really have a problem believing that Hahn had a lot of major input when KW was running the show. but at some point, Hahn must have been giving input, input in which the powers to be trusted him.

[Dick Allen]

I really have a problem believing that Hahn had a lot of major input when KW was running the show. but at some point, Hahn must have been giving input, input in which the powers to be trusted him.

Perception is different from reality. KW trades prospects that is perceived as ruining the system even though the prospects traded never turn into anything. Comimg off a 73 win season, Hahn trades 4 prospects for a potential 1 year rental. That is praised, but it is a total KW-like move. I am not trying to praise KW, he had his flaws, and as I stated I would love to see Hahn run his own show. But as was stated in previous posts, the titles and responsibilities have changed a bit, but the same people are making decisions.

[LDF]

Perception is different from reality. KW trades prospects that is perceived as ruining the system even though the prospects traded never turn into anything. Comimg off a 73 win season, Hahn trades 4 prospects for a potential 1 year rental. That is praised, but it is a total KW-like move. I am not trying to praise KW, he had his flaws, and as I stated I would love to see Hahn run his own show. But as was stated in previous posts, the titles and responsibilities have changed a bit, but the same people are making decisions.

 

you make a good point and unless the fans has ears in those internal mtg, everything is based on a opinion. first kw would never had the ability to work with Rodon agent. those draft picks, while some may say kw could have made those draft picks, I am basing his success on how many yrs of draft results. i am not trying to tear down kw, ummm success, but i rather keep depending on Hahn short success.

 

next KW trades of what ever kind of prospects the system had, it would have been a different story, if KW had actually did better then..... what ever you called his draft success. it was a win/win situation. sox got rid of a less than idea prospect for something now to use. if his draft results were better, then maybe those other trades wouldn't have been needed.

[Jerksticks]

Perception is different from reality. KW trades prospects that is perceived as ruining the system even though the prospects traded never turn into anything. Comimg off a 73 win season, Hahn trades 4 prospects for a potential 1 year rental. That is praised, but it is a total KW-like move. I am not trying to praise KW, he had his flaws, and as I stated I would love to see Hahn run his own show. But as was stated in previous posts, the titles and responsibilities have changed a bit, but the same people are making decisions.

 

Nice post. Hahn unloads 4 guys for a 1 year rental and somehow that is an about-face for White Sox GMing. Yea thankfully KW isn't still the GM ?.

 

Chris Sale, Quintana & Abreu are basically the reasons we did what we did this offseason. If these are such different GM styles, then who gets credit for those moves? Can't slam the FO for Gio & Swisher and then attribute the CFS, JFQ & JMFA moves to good luck.

[LDF]

Nice post. Hahn unloads 4 guys for a 1 year rental and somehow that is an about-face for White Sox GMing. Yea thankfully KW isn't still the GM ?.

 

Chris Sale, Quintana & Abreu are basically the reasons we did what we did this offseason. If these are such different GM styles, then who gets credit for those moves? Can't slam the FO for Gio & Swisher and then attribute the CFS, JFQ & JMFA moves to good luck.

 

then how bout attributing is to the luck of the 3 major players calling the shot at the sox FO. JR, KW, and Hahn, each adding their little in the pot. like getting the right spices for a great dish. each being important as the other.

[Jerksticks]

then how bout attributing is to the luck of the 3 major players calling the shot at the sox FO. JR, KW, and Hahn, each adding their little in the pot. like getting the right spices for a great dish. each being important as the other.

Yea man that's how i look at it. I think the monster is at its best now. I always got the impression that KW rubbed some other GMs the wrong way. I'm glad Rick is in the trenches now- baseball seems to really like him. But who really knows.

[LDF]

Yea man that's how i look at it. I think the monster is at its best now. I always got the impression that KW rubbed some other GMs the wrong way. I'm glad Rick is in the trenches now- baseball seems to really like him. But who really knows.

 

oh, i never seen you this hype..... it is contagious.

[caulfield12]

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees--t...743146-mlb.html

 

Very good Passan article on the Dodgers' tv contract fiasco and its implications for the rest of baseball...specifically mentions the Cubs, but the White Sox deal is also coming up in 2019

[LDF]

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/10-degrees--t...743146-mlb.html

 

Very good Passan article on the Dodgers' tv contract fiasco and its implications for the rest of baseball...specifically mentions the Cubs, but the White Sox deal is also coming up in 2019

 

no matter now.... the season started. i love to be informed, but i am still hyped on this team.

 

the one thing i really hate, esp with how the tv/media is making baseball have more exposure, the sox can't have their minor league teams televised. i mean, as baseball is promoting the season package, why couldn't the sox ownership group come up with a complete sox package of their minor system. the sox have great prospects, i am sure many would love to see them play.

 

ok, let them do the home games only.

[lasttriptotulsa]

no matter now.... the season started. i love to be informed, but i am still hyped on this team.

 

the one thing i really hate, esp with how the tv/media is making baseball have more exposure, the sox can't have their minor league teams televised. i mean, as baseball is promoting the season package, why couldn't the sox ownership group come up with a complete sox package of their minor system. the sox have great prospects, i am sure many would love to see them play.

 

ok, let them do the home games only.

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/multimedia/

 

$50/year gives you a hell of a lot of games to watch.

[LDF]

http://www.milb.com/milb/multimedia/

 

$50/year gives you a hell of a lot of games to watch.

 

many thanks, i didn't know this existed.